Licensing Sub-Committee - Thursday 24 July 2025, 7:00pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

Licensing Sub-Committee
Thursday, 24th July 2025 at 7:00pm 

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Yes please.
Thank you. So the meeting is now live and the first item on the agenda today will be to appoint a chair for the meeting.
Prior to the meeting we had a nomination for Councillor Jaffray to chair the meeting. Can I cheque if that's agreed, Councillor Burchill?
Yes it is agreed.
Thank you and I'll hand over to Councillor Jaffray who will now chair the remainder of the meeting.
Thank you. Thank you and welcome to this meeting of the licencing subcommittee. Can you hear me?
Yes, we can.
Brilliant.
Which is being held as a remote meeting. This meeting is being webcasted, and please bear with us if there are any more technical problems and apologies for the delay in the starting of this meeting.
My name is Councillor Geoffrey and I am chairing this meeting. I will now invite the other attendees to introduce themselves in the following order. So can I start with Councillor?
Yes, good evening everybody. I'm Councillor Rosemary Burchill.
Thank you. Officers?
Guy Bishop, Legal Advisor to the Licencing Subcommittee.
Thank you and the applicant, oh sorry Julie Hopkins licencing officer.
So and the final officer I'm not needing more from the noise officer.
Thank you, thank you and the applicant.
My name is Abidul Sey and I'm the franchisee in the business in the eastern piece as well and
But my partner with me and she'll cut it as well. He will introduce himself.
My name is Anshul Khattar. I'm director of Eastern Pisa Limited who is a applicant in this matter.
Okay. And do you have a representative? A representative? A solicitor?
Sorry, my solicitor was supposed to come today but due to a family emergency he can't make it to the meeting.
No problem. So will you be representing today?
Okay. All right then. Thank you. Mr Flowers, have you made a note of that?
I've made a note that that person will be unable to join, yes, and just to confirm for everyone
that Robert Newby -Walker is attending in his capacity as a responsible authority as a
representation of the application, just to distinct that Julian Guy will be officers
advising the council whereas Mr Nimi Walker will be taking part as a representation.
Thank you. So moving on to item agenda one and two. Are there any declarations of interest for any items on this agenda which anybody would like to declare?
Nope.
brilliant. Thank you. Moving on to the next item, we will now consider the application
for a variation of a premises licence. Hello, hello, Councillor Davies. Hello, hello, I'm
very sorry about all the system not letting me in.
No problem. Welcome Councillor Davies.
Yeah, most welcome. So we've just had an introduction from
Councillor Burchill, the officers and if you'd just like
to introduce yourself and then we'll move on with the next item
on the agenda.
Yes, so I'm a counsellor Sarah Davis and I'm involved with the town board.
Brilliant. Is there any declaration of interest which you'd like to tell us about?
No, no.
Brilliant, thank you. So we will now consider the application for a variation of a premises licence in respect of the premises known as Papa John's,
3 -4 -4 Battersea Park Road, London, SW11, 3BY. And now I invite the licencing officer to
introduce the application.
Thank you Chair. East End Pizza Ltd have applied to vary the premises licence held in respect
of Papa John's at 3 -4 -4 Battersea Park Road, SW11, 3BY. The premises currently hold a licence
to allow late night refreshment from 11pm until 2am Sunday to Saturday in line with Wandsworth
Council's licencing policy hours for offering late night refreshment. The provision of late night
refreshment is the sale of hot food and or hot non -alcoholic drinks to the public between the
hours of 11pm and 5am only and is licensable between these hours. The applicant has applied
to increase the hours for late night refreshment from the current 2am until 5am, effectively
applied for 24 hours a day. The existing and proposed licenceable activities and hours
are laid out in Appendix B to the report. The application was advertised as required
under the legislation and this resulted in the receipt of a representation from the Council's
Environmental Services Noise and Nuisance Officer who opposes the application. The Officer
is concerned about the impact that this extension for later hours could have on neighbouring
homes due to the close proximity of residential properties near to the premises. Also the
impact of noise from patrons using the premises and concerns about delivery riders and their
vehicles. A copy of the representation has been provided to the applicant and to members
of the licencing subcommittee. If granted, all the existing conditions attached to the
licence in black in Appendix A will still apply. Conditions highlighted in red have
been offered by the applicant as additional conditions. A copy of the existing licence
is included in the bundle provided. The options open for the licencing subcommittee are, you
could either grant the application as requested or modify the conditions of the licence, alter
or omit a condition or add a new one, or reject the whole or part of the application and modify
or add to these conditions if you consider it to be appropriate. Councillors, I have no other matters
to raise but we'd be happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you, Ms Hopkins. Does the
subcommittee have any questions for the licencing officer? Yes, can I just quickly ask. I got very
confused about actually what opening hours are being asked for because I know at the moment it
is 12 midday to 2am. They're asking to extend their late
night licencing until five o 'clock in the morning. But also
somewhere it's talking about being open 24 hours. So could I
just have clarification on what the opening hours will be? Thank
you.
Well, they've asked for no restriction on the opening
hours so they want to open 24 hours and if they get the application granted then they will be able
to open and trade for 24 hours but they only need a licence between 11 pm and 5 am. Thank you, I
understand that now. I can see Mr Bishop has his hand up. It was just to help Miss Hopkins if
assistance was needed and I see that she's more than capable of answering the question.
Thank you. Any other questions from the subcommittee?
Any matters of clarification from the subcommittee?
So, I will now invite the applicant East End Pizza Limited to address the subcommittee,
and you will have five minutes to speak, after which questions may be asked to you. Mr. Qatar.
Mr Flowers please come in. Thank you, thank you. Just to assist the applicants,
Mr Hussain and Mr Kattar. I can see Mr Kattar's cameras switched off so when you're ready just
to repeat the chair, you'll have five minutes to make your case. So this is your opportunity
to provide any statement that you'd like for the committee to consider in support of your
application.
Okay, shall I do that now?
I think if we can just pause proceedings temporarily, please.
Yeah, I can start to play.
If you...
Hello Councillor Jeffery, just to reassure you we've paused proceedings.
Thank you, apologies.
The applicant I think is now ready to speak.
Brilliant, so you have now five minutes to talk about why you should be granted a licence today.
So I'm going to be starting my timer now.
Thank you everyone, thank you Councillors, thank you officers for having us here today.
We made this application to extend our licencing hours from 2 o 'clock until 5 o 'clock in the night.
The main reason is in the last two years Papa Jones as a brand have suffered the business operations where they had to close 50 -plus stores and around 40 stores were in London area.
We have seen a shift in the pattern where our lunchtime trade has depleted a lot after
COVID and our night trade have boomed in terms of the overall industry of all Papa Jones
and that's what a lot of stores have done.
So Papa Jones started operations called Operation Night Owl in which they open stores later
in the night.
So we have our neighbouring stores in Clapham Junction, which is open until 5am on Fridays
and Saturdays and their sale number have increased. Whereas the stores which were not able to
operate later in the nights, we have seen stores in the surrounding areas which has
been closed down last year. So this is a risk to business where if we don't have these additional
trading hours, we might not be able to operate for a longer period of time because business
is not profitable in the current opening hours. That's our rationale in applying for the licence.
Now we were supposed to be here with our legal representative who did some bundle as well,
but unfortunately the things didn't work out and we couldn't send that bundle over to you
and we didn't have access to that as well, but we can only tell the points which we covered
with them.
We have around 40 plus stores in London and outside the M25 area as well.
And most of, around 70 % of the stores operate late night and we work with different borrowers.
We have worked very closely with the borrowers how to take customer complaints if there are
any, how to work with the neighbourhood, how to train our staff to avoid these complaints.
and we work on a different manner as well,
where whichever proposal we get from the subcommittees,
we try to honour them and bring them on board
in order to see how we can run the restaurant.
So for instance, some of our restaurants
are only open for deliveries after a certain period of time,
which means that there will be no working customers
coming to the store,
which also means that there will be no drivers
waiting for the orders because all our orders
are coming pre -booked on the website,
and drivers only get the notifications
when their orders are ready to be picked up.
So that reduced their reasons to wait at the store.
Plus we do not provide any facilities
like phone charging, drinks, toilets
to be used to the drivers.
So it's not like McDonald's or KFC
where drivers have a reason to hang around for a bit.
And all our stores, they work,
especially the store we have applied for in Battersea. We only make business there, we don't deliver it ourselves.
So it's all done by professional third -party drivers
which help us to contain the number of people working in the store and which also help us reasons for anyone
staying in the store apart from just delivering order to a pre -booked address and a pre -booked order only.
Also, we have seen some of the, and obviously this is a shame, I can't send you a list in
a pre -bundle, but we have seen other businesses in the neighbourhoods which are within the
certain walking distance of the store and which are open for longer hours than 2am as
per what is suggested in the policies here, so I'm unsure that these were granted before
the policies were implemented to restrict opening hours to 2 a .m. but there are other
restaurants within the borough which are opening for the hours what we are proposing.
Abid, would you like to add anything?
Yeah, just a couple of things.
I think as you mentioned, as Anshul has already mentioned that there are multiple locations which are open past 2 a .m
That's one thing and the second thing is we do have an extensive
driver management system in place as well where we can basically, I know it sounds
as if we are passing on the deliveries to the third parties, but we do have a capable system where if a driver is
Basically creating any noise or grabbing the engines or anything else like that
we can basically block them from accessing our permission in the future.
So every order we receive late night or otherwise is basically tracked from the
moment it was created to the time it was delivered.
So even not on our promises,
if somebody is basically creating a complaint down the road,
while delivering the pizza and the next door neighbour is being disturbed because
he left his engine, uh,
loudly or hope that
in the late night hours, obviously
We do have the capability to track that driver and block him from the move future deliveries as well
so that's that's something which which is
presented to the
Other councils as well and has been very successful in us trading related
Hours without any complaints. Yeah
With that, I think we will welcome any questions.
One last thing I wanted to add is we have flat subsidies which is raised in the concerns.
We have spoken to people who live up there and we haven't received any complaints from
them and they haven't raised any issues.
Since we have taken over the company for more than 13 months now and it had a licence prior
to that. We haven't received any complaints from the flat sub -stairs or anyone in the
neighbourhood so far. Thank you. Are there any questions of clarification?
Is there any questions from the subcommittee for the applicant? Councillor Davies? Yes,
I do have a few questions. Thank you for telling us a little bit more about the plan. So,
the report mentioned the area in front of the shop and doing some work to that. Can you explain
what that area is used for? It's completely empty at the moment, Chancellor. It used to be
parking for the bikes when we had our when the previous franchises had their
own drivers but because now we are driverless so that's completely empty
we haven't put any chairs or anything there so there's no reason for any
to sit there or hang around.
OK, if I may, can I have a follow up on that?
Sorry, yes of course.
Yes, carry on.
So with the delivery drive because all the costs, I'm aware it's on a red route,
Where would they be parking to pick up the pizzas?
So there is a shop on the right, so there's one unit left to us, there's a side road and
that's where everyone parks. So it's literally like maybe 30 seconds walk from the shop.
Okay, so it's in the side road. Okay, thank you.
Thank you. Councillor Burchill, do you have any questions?
No, I don't. It was Councillor Davies has actually asked the questions that were coming to my mind as well.
I just have a question myself.
So you mentioned about a branch which does the collections and just delivery so people can't walk in.
I was just wondering, is this the dynamics for this branch as well?
I mean, would the dynamics be for this branch as well the same or I mean, how would it be?
I mean, would you have walk in customers as well?
Sorry, yeah, so I think it's basically the proposal is for the sites where we see a lot
of nightclubs or maybe late night traffic if you want to put it this way, but this this
isn't something which was in some cases, this isn't something which was implemented by the
council, but we implemented it ourselves to protect the business and the team and the
neighbourhood as well.
So this is a capability we have basically we can switch off the deliveries or pre -planned collections or anything
walk -in switch off the lights in the customer area and basically have pre -planned
rearranged deliveries only for the business, but we
will
We'll be open to the suggestion of the subcommittee suggest that will help
but we don't expect any nuisance from the
collection orders on these promises.
Okay, thank you. Councillor Davies.
I just got a question about, you know, you mentioned about how
you would be telling drivers to be quiet. And I'm not sure how
you would plan to do that. How? Yeah, what plans to to make sure
people are quiet.
So we do have notices displayed at the entrance at the exit.
We do train our managers to inform the drivers.
Mostly it's the same drivers who are coming in and out.
So they do know how to handle our food, how to leave the premises quietly and how to come
into the premises.
and we also have a authority, you can say, where we can, if a driver is not behaving as we want them to, we can actually ban them from our premises so they will never come back there.
So if we have any complaints from the team members that the driver is not complying, this is the way we can actually stop them coming there.
and we actually don't, I mean, it can be harsh on drivers sometimes, but we don't have any space for the drivers to stay in our stores for any reasons.
So, and this is something we have done actually not to give them any space in the shop to sit there, chat, charge their phones, or use a toilet, or maybe some, for any other reasons.
So they literally just, because they want to be on road and make money, so they have no reason to stay in our premises.
And we always, managers are trained, team members are trained to ask them to behave in a certain manner.
So obviously we understand the importance of the licence and we understand the importance of keeping things complaint free, you will say, and as normal as we can, so we can actually focus on the business.
Thank you. If I could invite Councillor Burch Hall.
Yes, I'm not on mute. Yes, I could, could I just have a little bit more of an explanation that Councillor Jeffries was asking about customers coming in off the street versus people ordering online.
So, is presumably during the daytime you have people coming in off the street.
At what time do you shut that down and only take deliveries?
Currently, throughout our opening hours until 2 a .m. we are welcoming customers to come inside and place the orders.
and that's how it is working currently.
And this is what we are proposing to extend our hours
to do the same.
But what Abhishek was mentioning,
like in some circumstances where subcommittee have advised
that these hours can be issued during the weekdays,
specifically where we don't want nuisance
or where we expect nuisance coming in.
We have, what we can do on our website is obviously
we can stop people coming in and to place our order.
and we actually, at some places, we can actually shut the front door as well and shut the customer area.
So all the orders are made and we can make it only delivery only.
So there will be no customer coming and collecting order from us.
It will be delivered to a specific address and it will be done by the drivers only.
So it won't be a situation where a customer is trying to find a parking spot then coming to our store, knocking the door because
we will shut them completely to place a collection order. So it will be delivery only.
And that would be between two o 'clock and five o 'clock.
Yes, we are open to that proposal.
And how many members of staff do you have on in the middle of the night?
On weekends until two o 'clock, we have three members of staff to do the closing shift.
On weekdays, we have two members of staff.
Thank you.
Thank you for that. Now I'll be inviting those making represent. Is there any further questions from the subcommittee.
So now I'll be inviting those making representations to address the subcommittee and you'll have
five minutes to speak after which questions may be asked to you.
So, yep, so whenever you're ready.
Thank you, Chair.
This is just myself from the noise team making a representation tonight.
This is really a simple case of policy and obviously perhaps won't over repeat the purpose
of the policy and why the policy is there and why those hours have been set.
I think we understand that they're there to provide fair hours for business and fair respite
hours for residents.
My main stress point here is that with a food delivery business, they will generate noise
through their operation. Even the best operated business with the best will and best intentions,
and there will be comings and gains from patrons and there will be comings and gains from delivery
riders. I'm particularly concerned about delivery riders because they are third party, they're
not under direct control of the business. And there's little control that you have on
them when they're outside the premises. I'm not clear from the applicant. They seem to
be suggesting that they could condition this as a dark store to eliminate walking customers.
I think that would be a very wise suggestion because you'd eliminate one of the issues.
Obviously, you don't want drunk patrons turning up at three, five o 'clock, the only place
that's now serving when they've fallen out of other licenced premises. But delivery riders
a secondary issue. Perhaps we are talking about this being a dark store operation where they are
closed to the public and only serving delivery collections. But I'd expect those deliveries to
be quite numerous, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. The applicant has mentioned other
branches that have beyond hours. They've perhaps not given much reference here. They've mentioned
Clapham Branch, but I think that's out of our borough. I think that's Lambeth. I've just done
a quick look that they don't have 5am a week, just at the weekend. But again, that's not
within our policy or with our consideration. We have a Papa John's, I believe, in Ballym
area. They have midnight and 2am. In fact, they don't even have the full extent of the
licence. I appreciate that might be a different franchise or a different operator. But just
as a comparison. There are a number of pizza restaurants and providers on Battersea Park
Road. They all, I believe, have 2am. I don't believe anyone has beyond that policy hour.
If they are operating beyond those policy hours, I'm sure our licencing team would like
to know. I do believe there has been a concerted effort from the licencing team in recent times
to ensure that people are following policy because there is a lot of money to be generated
unfortunately from the night time economy and I appreciate the businesses financial
incentive to do so but that shouldn't really be the consideration here. The consideration
should be about protecting the licencing policy and the objectives that that policy serves.
The business can't prevent noise. You're going to have vehicles turning up in and out. They
they may be pulling up, they may be just pulling up on the side.
It's a red route that's probably dead to traffic at this time.
And that would be an obvious concern.
There haven't been complaints from residents or representations from residents.
Well, look, I mean, that's why the noise team are here and why we stand up.
Unfortunately, a lot of residents aren't aware or don't see or don't feel empowered enough
to comment.
And the current residents might accept it.
and they may even be late night workers themselves and might welcome it, but that doesn't mean that
everyone will and that doesn't mean that the policy should be abandoned simply because
residents haven't commented. The policy is the general guideline. It should really be followed,
particularly where there are representations from authorities such as the noise team.
I don't see any reason why the policy shouldn't be followed here. I would have concerns with
delivery riders coming in and out throughout the night, in the dead of night when there
is very little other traffic apart from the occasional night bus that will be coming down
that road at that time. And it would also set a dangerous precedent for the numerous
premises down there that would all want to follow suit. Not that the precedent is set,
there were individual assessments of these applications, but I can't see any reason here
with the proximity of residential properties, why that policy should be abandoned. And there's
no biggle here for me really. 2AM is suitable enough for the operation of this business
here and I think that's what should, the application should be rejected on that basis. Thank you,
Thank you, Mr Newby Walker. Does the subcommittee have any questions for Mr Newby Walker?
No.
Councillor Berto?
Sorry, oh no, I'm already on. Thank you very much for your representation. Now, the applicant
has said that there are places that are open all night but you feel that there aren't any
places or restaurants that are open all night in the area and you've checked that?
Yes, well, I haven't checked every licence in the borough. There will be some outliers
where they've made justification to go beyond policy. I can mention McDonald's on the main
ones with roundabout. It's a big drive through detached from everyone. I believe they have
24 hour sales. There will be some other venues around that also have hours that are beyond
policy because of their circumstances. But one of those drivers for people that go beyond
policy is that they are detached and removed and isolated a lot of the time, or in areas
that are very normally busy for the sort of time of night. I don't believe there's any
pizza place to be 5am, but I couldn't be certain, I wouldn't know how to search every pizza
pizza place in the pub. Certainly I'm aware of a number of premises along Battersea Park
Road that have traded without licence or have been going beyond their licences in recent
history and there has been a concerted effort by the licencing team to bring everyone into
line. Whether the applicant knows any individual premises that they'd like us to consider as
a reference, but again it shouldn't be the case that those set precedent that other people
followed. Those will be outliers that have been considered by the committee in the past and been
granted a licence for reasons that they've been able to justify. So it would be very unusual for
us to give an extended licence? Yeah, 5am would be very unusual. Again, there may be some outliers
that have 3am have asked for a slight extension beyond that policy. But 5am and effectively
a continuous service is rare. And licencing officer Mark El to voice you forever. But
again the applicant here hasn't given any indication of other businesses that they believe
they are a model of and should be used as a copy.
Thank you.
Mr Bishop, would you like to come in?
Yeah, it's just on that point.
Certainly there should not be a comparison by the licencing subcommittee when it makes
its decision that there's other premises that may have later hours or similar hours as proposed.
you are considering this application on what's going to happen if this premises gets this licence to the hour sought.
And the hour sought, you will have to make sure do not cause public nuisance or indeed crime and disorder arising from it.
Thank you for that, Mr Bishop.
Anybody else from the subcommittee would like to ask any questions to Mr Walcott?
I actually have a question. So currently has there been any complaints with the current 2am timings?
No, we don't have any complaints about the supremacy.
Okay, and no objections have come in at all either.
I'm not aware, you'd have to confirm with licencing if anything came in or was withdrawn.
I've suspected that the police didn't put in a representation because the applicant
offered a condition of Darkstore but I don't see that that condition has
actually been offered so I don't I don't know what's happened there but why the
police wouldn't otherwise have been objecting for potential crime and
disorder if patrons were going to be coming off the street at 3, 4 in the
morning but again I can't I can't comment on that it's not my that's not
my area fully. Thank you.
Does anybody have any questions about the representations just made?
Okay, so...
Could I clarify a couple of things if... or am I out of time? Sorry.
Yes, sorry just bear with me. Mr Flowers, can I bring you in?
It's just to advise that it's not an opportunity for cross -examination and discussion. Obviously,
after both parties have made their statements which they have, just to confirm with the
applicant, the then order would be that Mr Newby -Walker would have a chance to sum up
and conclude his case and then you'll have an opportunity to also summarise and that's
where if there's anything you did want to say
or anything that Mr. Newby Walker said,
you could say then,
but it wouldn't be a case where you would speak now
because then Mr. Newby Walker, I'm sure,
would then want to also come back
and we don't want to go back into that back and forth part.
We do have a procedure to follow,
which we have to stick to,
to ensure the fairness of the hearing
for all parties involved.
Yes.
Thank you, Mr. Flowers.
So I will now invite each party to provide any closing remarks they would like to submit.
This should be limited to a maximum of two minutes. So I would first invite those making representations.
Mr Newby Walker.
Yeah, thank you again.
Yeah, so you'd like to make a reference.
Thank you, Chair. Yeah, so I don't think really I have much further to add. I think
the case has already been said and very few questions leading on. So I can only repeat
really that it's very unusual to go beyond 2am. There's very close residential properties
to the premises. And whether it's a closed business to delivery riders or walk -ins, there
there are two factors that would provide noise in the area and I don't think it's appropriate or
in line with the licencing objectives to allow this licence to be granted. Thank you.
Thank you and now I'd like to invite the applicant to address the licencing subcommittee.
So, okay, so I think, thank you. Thank you. So basically, I think a couple of things that
I want to summarise on our points, which on the same, we couldn't send the bundle in time
because of the family emergency that our council had. But it's a high average ticket value
and low transaction business when it comes to delivery business for the
bop accounts so we don't expect 10 delivery driver every hour turning up
it's probably gonna be between 3 or 4 that's what the average is until 2 a .m.
as well just that clarification the second thing is we were gonna offer what
we basically proposed in our introduction and the business model as
well that will basically switch off the lights so it will be not serving the
intoxicated customers, obviously for obvious reasons for the avoidance of
nuisance as well as the protection of our team members and colleagues.
We do have full control of who comes to collect our orders.
We can ban them and they can never enter our promises ever again.
So they said if somebody, even while they are delivering them, so we have
a very extensive driver tracking system, even from the third parties.
So we know who delivered what product at what time in which area.
So we can even a complaint on the phone can be logged into our HR system and workforce
management system and that gets picked up by the customer services team very quickly
and we can take that action almost immediately and that driver will not come back to our
promises for minor infringer infringements with basically we give them a
warning and warning and if they don't stop that on
the second incident that that gets banned from our promises
In terms of naming I think it's the below so wood -fired pizza
Which is later like two minutes walk away from our promises
Which are they are operating until 3 a .m. On the weekdays and nothing from the top of my head
It's 4am on the weekends, we will be open to reduced opening hours as well.
It doesn't have to be 5am if the subcommittee as I'm sure it's your right, thinks that reduced hours are warranted.
We will be happy to.
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank you, Mr. Hussain.
I've actually given you two minutes and 30 seconds.
I'm so sorry, I'm going to have to stop your time here.
And thank you everybody for being here tonight.
That now concludes this part of the meeting.
The decisions, reasons and any legal guidance given during the subcommittee's discussion
that has informed the decision will be confirmed in writing,
together with information about any rights of appeal within five working days.
Members of the Licencing Subcommittee. Mr Flowers, would you like to come in before I conclude?
Sorry, Chair, it was just to suggest that the councillors and legal advisors stay in this room just to assist Councillor Davies and to avoid her having to leave and trying to rejoin in the other room.
Yes. Okay, that's perfect. So, thank you for attending tonight and.