Licensing Sub-Committee - Wednesday 7 May 2025, 7:00pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

Licensing Sub-Committee
Wednesday, 7th May 2025 at 7:00pm 

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Thank you. The meeting is now live. Chair, over to you.
Wonderful. Hello. Hello, everybody. So welcome to this licensing subcommittee, which is being
held remotely. The meeting is being webcast. So if there are any technical issues, please
bear with us. I am Councillor Maurice McLeod, and I am chairing this meeting. I'm now going
invite the other attendees to introduce themselves in the following order so
we've got we've got my fellow councillors on the subcommittee if you
can introduce yourselves. Hello I'm councillor Mark Justin, councillor for
Nine Elms. I'm Norman Marshall, councillor for South Bellum. Welcome both of you. The
other officers around the room will sort of introduce themselves as and when
they come up to speak. Do we have any apologies for absence? I don't think we
do, do we? We don't, chair no. Okay, brilliant. And so before I start with the first
application I'd like to advise anyone that's attending for the E -LAM
Enterprises agenda item which is to follow. I'd like to ask them to switch their cameras
off and their microphones on mute just so that they don't interfere with this first
hearing. Thank you. Okay, so now we consider the first application on the agenda which
is for a new premises license in respect for the premises known as Wine Direct Limited,
which is Unit 5B Parkfield Industrial Estate, Colvert Place, London SW11 5BA. I now invite
the Licensing Manager to introduce the application. Thank you, Chair. I'm mindful you've read
the paperwork. So I'm just going to give you the summary of the case that you have before
you. This is a premises license applied for by Wine Direct Limited for a unit on 5B Packfield
Industrial Estate, which is on Covid Road in Battersea. The premises is a warehouse
with no public access and shall the applicant is seeking to operate as a delivery hub for
South London region. The applicant has asked for the sale of alcohol for consumption of
the premises 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The application was advertised as required
under the Licensing Act and this resulted in the applicant agreeing conditions with
the Metropolitan Police specifically relating to security and keeping an incident book and
also CCTV for the prevention of crime and disorder as a licensing objective.
The applicant also agreed conditions with trading standards relating to refusal records,
staff refresher training and keeping of staff training records.
The Council's Environmental Services Officer from the Noise and Nuisance Team are requesting
that the hours proposed be reduced to 7am till midnight, Sunday to Thursday and 7am
to 2am the following morning, Friday to Saturday. The Environmental Health Services Officers
has objected to this application because they've stated that it's not in line with the Council's
statement of licensing policy framework of hours, which is detailed under section 9 of
licensing policy. This is the only valid representation that you are considering tonight, members.
There are no other representation from other responsible authorities or any other persons.
The copy of the representation has already been afforded to the applicant and has been
made available to the subcommittee tonight. The applicant has proposed measures to promote
the licensing objectives as conditions of the license if the licensing subcommittee
were minded to grant this license. These are produced in Appendix A of the report on pages
7 to 9 of the Agenda. The Licensing Subcommittee may modify these conditions if they consider
such steps appropriate after hearing all the evidence tonight. The options available to
the Subcommittee are to take such steps that they consider appropriate for promoting the
objectives and these are either to grant the application as requested, modify the
conditions of the license if the committee were minded to grant it or to
reject the whole part of the application. That's the summary of the application
you have before you chair and members. I'm happy to answer any questions or any
Thank you very much Miss Sharkey. Do any of my colleagues have any questions? Councilor
Justin. Yeah, I mean the application that they've
asked of 20 ,000, are the deliveries to this predominantly deliveries to or taking away
from? The applicant may clarify that for you.
So as I understand it, it's going to be a delivery hub where obviously people will order
the alcohol and then they'll have to deliver it from that site.
But I'm hoping the applicant make or the applicant representative can clarify the business model
for you at this stage, Councillor.
Thank you. Any other questions for Councillor Marshall? Did I see your hand up?
Maybe not.
You're on mute, Councillor, if you're trying to speak.
I thought you meant I was on mute. Sorry.
Sorry, Councillor Marshall.
Councillor Marshall, if you're trying to speak up.
Can I have a clarification on the introduction? Thank you for the introduction.
Could you just clarify again that point about that the application doesn't fit with the framework for these types of premises
promoted by the council. Is that what I've understood correctly from the documentation?
Yes, that is correct, Councillor. The framework of hours that we've proposed in our licensing
policy is 7am to midnight, Sunday to Thursday and 7am to 2 the following Friday and Saturday.
those are the hours that we have proposed in our statement of licensing policy for the council. So
yes, that is hours later. I understand this falls foul of this because it's intended to operate 24
hours. Yes, so the noise and nuisance officer here, Mr. Robert Newby Walker, is here to object
on that basis that the application as it is in its current format does not meet the Council's
statement of licensing policy framework of ours. Would I be correct in my understanding that that
framework is largely directed at premises that are selling alcohol to the public,
Whereas this is a distribution hub that's moving alcohol from a storage place to some other distribution outlet rather than directly to the public. Is that correct?
The section in itself has got, and I'm hoping the legal advisor will advise you further
on the section itself, Councillor, but it does have a combination of what the framework
will do, the location of the premises in the residential area, and it's not about the business
model, it's about the location of premises within the barrow.
Thank you.
Before you get coming, Councillor, I can see a hand up. Sorry, Paul Greeno. Was that...
No, it's me.
I just wanted to...
I'm sorry, I'm the legal advisor.
Thank you. I thought you might be the applicant for a minute.
Yeah, no, no, sorry. I'm the legal advisor standing in for Guy Bishop this evening.
If I can just clarify the position regarding the framework hours or the hours of framework.
What you've got is it's covered by section nine of the statement of licensing policy.
However, what section 9 .3 specifically states is that each application must be considered
and predetermined licensed opening hours must not be imposed without consideration being
given to the merits of each individual application.
So what you have is a position where the council has set framework hours that it says, ideally,
these are the hours that people should be seeking.
But if they wish to go beyond those framework hours, then they would normally address that
within their operating schedule, looking at conditions.
There was also the question in relation to delivery services.
This is actually dealt with in section 15 of the statement of licensing policy, specifically
15 .3, which states possible public nuisance caused by delivery drivers collecting deliveries
from license premises.
and they look at possible prevention of such nuisance and an example given by
using courier services that encourages drivers to use vehicles that are less
likely to cause noise or air quality nuisances and so use of electric bikes
or pedal bikes for late night deliveries. So you may wish to explore with the
applicant as they are applying for something that goes beyond the framework hours, what
noise mitigation measures they have in place.
And likewise with the Environment Health Officer who has raised issues in relation to deliveries
and noise, what impact other vehicles in that area
would have.
So is it a quiet area where there's
very little through traffic?
Or is it a road where there is already quite a lot of traffic?
And therefore, how much would the delivery drivers
be adding to what is already there so unless I do have any specific questions
that's all I need to say on the actual licensing policy. Thank you very much Mr.
Greenhill. Councillor Justin. Can we be given some more information on exactly
how much activity will be taking place at this venue say from midnight onwards? I mean
Everywhere that there's a collection made or a delivery, it means that somewhere else is getting that delivery.
If you're collecting at two o 'clock in the morning from this depot, you're going to annoy somewhere else in another area at four o 'clock in the morning.
I mean, then again, if it's not that frequent, why can't we just have some figures on what kind of volume of traffic will be taking place at this depot from midnight onwards?
I mean this is the basic information we need to make a decision on this.
That's something that hopefully the applicant will address you on.
Yeah, that's what I was about to say, Councillor. Those are questions for the applicant.
We can certainly interrogate all that sort of stuff with them.
Ms Hickey.
Chair, sorry, would you mind just asking if there are any declarations of interest?
I think we just missed that at the beginning of the meeting.
Apologies. Sorry. I did think that was missing from the notes. I thought maybe we'd pared
down. Sorry. At this point, I need to ask if anyone attending, any of the subcommittee
have any declarations of interest for any of the things that we're going to discuss
for tonight. I don't know the exact legal wording. Sorry. That's to you, Councillors
Justin and Marshall. No, no. And Normie. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Hickey. Sorry, any more
questions for Caroline Sharkey about the license? So not about the, like I said, we can get into the
detail of the business model and all that sort of stuff with the applicants. And we can even get
to why environmental health are concerned when we talk to the environmental health officer. Is
there anything about this, about the application itself, about the nature of the application that
we need to ask the officer? I'm seeing no response. So I think that's okay. Thank you very much,
I now invite those making, both speaking for the applicant. So I've completely lost myself
in the notes here. I now invite those speaking for the applicant. I don't know the name of
the person who's representing. Mr. Flowers, do you know or Mr. Sicky?
Have you got me on the screen?
Hi, Mr. Daly. Hello.
Hello.
Hello.
Oh, thank you.
Hello there.
Hi there. Sorry for that. I did say prepare yourself for any hiccups. Are you representing,
Are you the applicant?
Yes, I'm not the applicant as such, but I'm retained by the company to assist with
licensing and compliance and applications as in this case. So this
application has been made by Wine Direct. They have a number of other companies
that they operate all under the same banner. Another one is Appleberry Foods,
another one is Bottle Basket and each individual company performs a different
function but they tend to operate a similar model and that model is the
delivery of alcohol to residential premises.
So in total across the UK, there's an excess of 20 licenses.
They're located in Liverpool, Sheffield, Nottingham, Bath, Bristol.
There's a number in and around London, some of which operate from self storage
units and some of which operate from premises like this, which have been
chosen to reduce any impact on local residents and cause nuisance in the area.
So the reason this premises was chosen is that its location is situated very near those railway lines and not near any residential areas.
The business model itself, just to explain, I think Councillor Justin touched on it there,
it's very difficult to determine the volume of sales that will be going from this premises.
However, if we look at different models that they have, so for example, if you want to buy whisky,
you might go on a certain website that they operate,
which would then be a general delivery,
and that would be dispatched through the post.
That would most likely be done during the daytime.
They operate their own website,
which would deliver directly to you as an individual
within a certain radius of that premises.
And then they also would advertise on third -party platforms
such as Deliveroo, Just Eat, and Uber Eats.
The way those businesses work
in terms of the model of the operator is they obviously charge a fee to the person who's
purchased the alcohol and they charge a fee to the operator and then they take a cut of
that.
So whilst they're a great advertising platform for someone who might want to purchase alcohol
and not go out of their house at say one in the morning, there is no discernible benefit
to the license holder.
In fact, they would rather that you bought directly from the website so that it essentially cutting out the middleman.
Having a look in terms of the license and policy in the area, one of the considerations for this premises itself is the fact that there are other licensed premises within the industrial estate.
Having a look at those licenses that are currently in operation, you've got Deliveroo license
32237, which is operating until one in the morning.
You have Air Kitchens, which is operating until five in the morning, and you have another
firm Encore until 2am.
One of the concerns for this business is that if when managing their own deliveries, they're
capable of, um, given the staff extensive training and operating the pedal cycles
or electric vehicles, that's not an issue.
The difficulty for the license holder and what they don't want to fall
foul on is operating on external third party websites and those websites, such
as just a driver comes along, um, collect an order and then delivers
not using an electric vehicle.
So this seems to be the key issue in and around where Mr. Newby Walker has made his representations
and he's put forward that it will cause additional noise nuisance.
Whilst an electric vehicle would obviously be much more preferable, I know from speaking
with the owners of the business and the other ones, they operate at peak time from about
midnight until 3am.
So their business model is very similar to other business models, but the peak time would be from midnight until 3am.
That's the period in which people are less likely to go and try and find a 24 -hour Tesco and go and buy alcohol.
People get lazy and people just get it delivered.
But in respect of this application, I think the President has been set, as in there's his app license there, which is 24 hours as well.
I think it's under the name of Quick Commerce Limited on your licensing register.
Now they have 24 hours, but they do have restrictions from 2am until I think it's 6am that they have to use electric vehicles.
For this application, I would hope you consider granting the application as requested.
One thing I'd like to consider is that the focus of Mr Newby's reps and every hearing should be focused on the representations that have been made and no other external factors.
The focus of Mr Newby Walker's reps is that those residential premises that are close to the exit from the industrial estate, which goes under the train line, may be affected by increased noise at hours late in the morning.
There are restrictions on some of the other licenses. However, if you bear in mind that the peak times that these businesses operate is from midnight to 3am,
The restrictions on the other licenses have been placed from 2am until 6am.
So we can quite rightly assume that from 12am until 2am, the other operators may or may not be using electric vehicles.
There are a number of operators, I can count five there, operating from the same industrial estate.
If they've been operating for a couple of years, what we would expect to see would be a series of complaints from residents in the area
saying there are extensive made vehicles going past my road and they're causing a noise nuisance.
So this business will not exacerbate any of those issues because no reference has been made to any complaints that have been received by the authority.
We haven't had any evidence. There is a noise nuisance within the area.
And just to take it back to the issue that the applicant doesn't want to fall
foul of the conditions that may be placed through any third party inadvertently
sending a driver who is on, I don't know, a moped or is driving a hybrid
vehicle or a motorized vehicle.
So considering that, if you're reminded to grant the application, I think the
applicants where they would always drive the business to the website rather than
use a third party couriers, the applicant themselves could
condition it and make sure that their drivers will use electric vehicles,
but not necessarily the third party drivers.
Thank you, Mr. Daly, is that are you
you fobbed up to questions now? Yeah, thank you.
Okay, okay. So, Councillors, any questions for the applicant?
Just again a question of clarification. Sorry, apologies. Just a question of clarification.
So this is meeting a demand from members of the public who need to purchase alcohol
in the small hours, so after midnight.
And the easiest way for them to do that
is to just order it online.
Yes.
And to get it delivered to their houses
at two o 'clock in the morning, let's say.
And that's anticipated to be the major gap
that this service is filling.
Yes.
And -
There you go, thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor Justin.
Yeah, what's the minimum order then to use this service?
I'm at home, it's four o 'clock in the morning and I have a desperate urge for a litre of scotch.
What are you gonna, what's the minimum order? One bottle, one case?
I'm not sure what I think would differ depending on which platform you're using
so you can't I would imagine counselor if it's if it's like deliveroo or any of those there
probably is a minimum order you know to make even worth again delivery but I don't I don't think it'd
be that much is that exactly trying to find out or yeah but the point is that the smaller you know
that the actual minimum order is absolutely critical in trying to work out the volume
of business and the amount of traffic that we're going there. If it was restricted to
a case of beer, a case of wine, six bottles of scotch, you would know that that kind of
purchase would only be undertaken by someone who was running a party, they'd run out of
booze or something like that. But if it was a single bottle of any of these, that's going
dramatically increase the number of potential people who are going to order
from there? The difficulty is it's very speculative because there's no way to
determine those figures without actually running the business. I mean there are a
number of businesses that operate out of there, one of which I think is
I think you said this is a rollout of a model that's already been done in several other cities,
so there must be some experience from other cities.
Yeah, so one of the considerations for, and this is not exactly confidential business operations,
but the way these businesses will work is that if you are in your living room in Wandsworth,
And they are purely based in convenience. So it's not just alcohol, it's snacks, it's other food stuffs.
It's essentially a dark news agents. But people want convenience. So what they do is they'll open the app and they'll go onto the section which is convenience stores,
and they select what they want. And the ones that appear top of the list are the ones that are within the closest radius of your premises.
So a lot of these businesses, ZAP, this company and a few others, they have a load of depots located all around those sort of densely populated geographical regions.
And that means that you could order in Wandsworth and have it delivered to you from one of these depots within five, ten minutes.
And that's one of the draws for customers there.
Volume isn't a massive concern. It's expanding that geographical reach.
So the operator themselves have a number of businesses that operate out of storage units,
but one of the other big units is located in East London, which is a very similar operation to what is proposed here.
Thank you. Mr Greenhill?
All I was going to say in relation to deliveries, most delivery operators base it on price as
opposed to amount.
So if you were, for argument's sake, buying a single bottle of beer and the value of the
be fulfilled. If you were say ordering a bottle of whiskey that was going to cost 20 pounds,
then that type of order is more likely to be accepted because it's based on the amount
of money that's coming in which then makes it worthwhile for the delivery operator to
actually deliver it because of the percentages that apply.
That makes sense, thank you. Yeah, I suppose, following on from Councillor Justin's point,
then they're not going to be sending out 50p products every two minutes because it just
wouldn't make financial sense. So there will be a limit to how, I suppose that it seems
strange to be asking a business to not do very much trade, but there'll be a limit to
how much, there won't be, there can't be armies of delivery guys outside the door waiting
deliver 2p orders because it just wouldn't make sense. Is that the point you're making?
Just looking on the website bottlebasket .co .uk if you did want to have a look later on you
can see. So you've got the, I'm not sure which whisky you drink Councillor Justin, but we've
got the Whistler PX I love you single malt Irish whisky 70 centilitres, got 59 5 star
reviews and that's 58 .99 if you remind us to purchase that bottle.
But I'm just looking for the minimum order from that website and I can't see
it to be honest. There were various selections of whiskey on this site.
Ardbeg, Currie Beckin, Scotch 89, Amrut Greedy Angels 10 year old 694, Ardbeg
25 year old, 2022, 849.
I don't think there's going to be many people buying that one at one in the
morning on a Friday, Saturday night, but that does give you an idea of what's on
the website in terms of it, but you were asking about, um, the minimum order.
I think if, if, or this premises bearing in mind, each can be tweets.
If you're reminded to grant the application, I'm sure a minimum
order value could be placed as a condition on the license.
Thank you.
that's helpful. Any more questions from the councillors to the applicants? No?
No, I'm saying, so I mean I guess we'll come into this. It is a bit of a strange one
because it does feel like, I know you say the business exists elsewhere, but it's a
slightly new business model, a slightly new way of thinking for us and I suppose
the understandable concern is with something new is that it's going to cause problems through
the night. This is stretching our normal opening hours, et cetera, et cetera. Now, I guess
I understand, I think I understand the model. I suppose where residents could face problems
are, you know, let's say it does, it's doing incredibly well, which we hope, which we hope,
you know, we hope a new business would be doing. And there's a line of sort of delivery
guys waiting at the, at the gates of Culver House. So outside of your space, but at the
gates of wherever they can be causing a problem there. Yeah. Which it does happen in other
parts of the borough. It happens in other parts of the city where, because delivery
drivers know okay there's gonna be quite a lot of trade coming from this place
later on we'll just hang around here we'll almost make this our little living
room well you know and that in itself can cause issues now we've we have I'm
almost waiting for the legal advisor jumping because we have in the past I
think been told that you're not responsible for stuff that it happens
not right on your doorstep. But I do think that there is a responsibility for the impact
that the delivery drivers who are serving you have.
Sorry, just to address those points. So just one of the points around it being new, and
it's obviously relatively new, but this kind of convenience has exploded since COVID to
an extent. And that's where the company have got quite used to dealing with the issues
and recognize them, what benefits them and what doesn't and what conditions they can and can't
work towards. And this is where you've obviously got these apps that operate 24 hours, you've got
air kitchens that go to five in the morning. So I don't think there's any concerns and there
certainly hasn't been any reviews undertaken of any of the other premises licenses around the
country. If there are any issues, I'm retained by the operators to kind of get involved and try and
mitigate any concerns. This is the main concern with this one. So where they're quite happy,
sorry, going back to the business model. If the business gets, so the business will have their
own delivery drivers that will be available to deliver from the premises. So if you, and it's
the same way all the takeaways work, if you order directly, if you order from Just Eat, from your
local takeaway. That ticket will go through to the local takeaway who can then supply
that order. So you'll pay a delivery charge, but that delivery charge will go directly
to the operator. If the operator gets too busy, that's where you get those just -eat
fellas hanging around that go, I'll pick up that order, I'll pick up that order. So the
operator will maybe press reject on their tablet or say, arrange for delivery on their
tablet and then someone else will come and fulfill that order. And then that other person
will receive the delivery fee as well. So as operators, where these guys operate,
they would prefer to retain that delivery fee. However, if it were to get too busy,
they would then have to press on the tablet someone come and collect.
They wouldn't want to do that and they'd rather manage it on their own. And the concern with this
application specifically is that if they were to press someone else fulfill the order, if that
person then turns up on a non electric scooter or a non electric car, then they
may fall foul of a condition that has been imposed on some of the other 24
hour licenses within that same industrial area. And that's their primary
concern is they don't, they are asking you to grant the application and perhaps
you can put a condition that on when they use their own delivery drivers,
which they will intend to do most of the time, that they will use electric
vehicles, but they don't want a condition that restricts any other delivery
drivers, if that makes sense. And with the congregation of delivery drivers, the
location of the premises is within the industrial estate, quite far down, abutted
by train tracks. So even if there were two or three hanging around, they would
probably be hanging around for the other premises as well, and they would
certainly be away from those residential premises that would have to go under the
bridge and then through the residential area.
Thank you very much. That's really helpful.
Councillor Marshall?
So just a question on that. Could you not build in a condition that if somebody turns up, if a third -party delivery driver turns up on a noisy moped or motorcycle,
that you can just, the condition is that you'd have an electric vehicle. If you don't have the electric vehicle and you turn up for the delivery, we can't give you the business.
So is that not a feasible condition to apply the work around this?
The difficulty with it is you can't, you can try your best to get delivery routes to turn up an electric vehicle, but you can't stipulate what vehicles they will turn up in.
So whilst you could turn one away, the next one might turn, you might turn the next one away, and you might turn the next one away.
But I think the argument really is that at present, you've got a number of businesses operating from that industrial state.
And at present, they only have conditions for delivery drivers between the hours of two and five.
So we're not saying we're entirely against those conditions being applied to the license.
It's just the concern is what they don't want is that those third parties that they may
infrequently use, that they will have limited control over.
And if inadvertently a member of staff from the premises handed over a bag to a person
who walked around the corner and then got in a motorized vehicle, then potentially they're
in breach of their license and they just want to be completely compliant.
No, I can't understand.
Thank you. Councillors, any more before we go to... No, okay. So now I now invite Mr.
Newby Walker, who is making a representation.
Yes, sir. Thank you, Chair. So yeah, it seems like a lot of these, what I'm going to say
been sort of discussed amongst yourselves before I've had a chance to sort of state my case here,
but yes, the objection isn't just a blanket objection to the fact that this is beyond
policy hours, it is an individual assessment of this particular application. So the policy
hours are there to protect against noise nuisance, it's one of the licensing objectives,
and those policy hours have been set at midnight in the week and 2 a .m. at the
weekend and that's done because we've conducted noise assessments of the
boa and that's when background levels tend to fall away so and obviously at
the weekend those background levels fall away a bit later than in the week so
there is that slight difference between those hours.
The applicant has talked about a lot of the other businesses
that run out of that estate,
but they are all conditioned to use electric vehicles
after the hours of 2 a .m.
Quick commerce is conditioned between 2 and 6 a .m.
to use electric vehicles.
Air kitchens also has a condition.
both of those are also grocery operators, they're slightly different business
models, they do have alcohol as part of their sales, in fact Air Kitchens doesn't
Air Kitchens is just purely late night refreshment, it's only a food license and
the concern with alcohol sales beyond license, those license hours,
policy hours, is that if you're one of the few places there you can buy
alcohol outside of those hours that will drive demand and then with that demand comes with
noise.
I understand yes the premises is in a quite remote situation, location in the railway
tracks and in itself it's not directly impacting on residents but the entrance into the estate
is a bottleneck, everything has to come and go through that bottleneck and that passes
residential properties on the other side of that and culvert place, culvert road.
And so look, we do believe in the noise team that if you allow an alcohol, so a
premise to sell alcohol, whether it's a dark store or not, that will generate
activity. If it's one of the few places where you can buy alcohol and it's very
easy to buy alcohol because it's a mail -order option. And there's been some
discussion here about what they're selling but it's never been made clear to me
and whether you can buy six pack of beer or high end whiskey,
probably quite different sales volumes.
But where we're talking fairly minimal orders,
just as the way you can go buy McDonald's for a Deliveroo,
we're not talking about huge values here,
potentially, I don't believe.
And what we're trying to do in the noise team
is protect residents from the increasing
of noise outside of the hours of in -policy.
Where premises go beyond that policy, they do need to show that they've considered those
impacts.
And that's why other operators have agreed this condition, which unfortunately, understand
for their business model that you can't guarantee the third party operations, but that is part
of what needs to be considered by the business.
I mean it's great if they've got their own operators and ideally they would use only their own operators, their own delivery company where they can guarantee those electric vehicles.
But because they can't do it, it doesn't mean that we should allow them to not do it, I don't believe.
The other mention is the lack of complaints.
Well, I think it's very hard for any resident in that area
to attribute the increase of traffic through the area
to any particular premise.
It'd be very hard to lodge a complaint
as to even know who's the cause.
But there is a clear, a logical indication
that if you increase traffic in that area
because you allow businesses to operate
beyond the policy hours that you will cause a noise impact.
The scale of that noise impact can't really be understood
until it's fully in effect,
but it is a logical conclusion to say
that if you've got one place in the borough
that you can buy alcohol after 2 a .m.,
that that is gonna drive demand
and that that demand will bring with it
noise from delivery vehicles,
which the applicant is saying they can't control fully
because it's the use of third parties although other operators have agreed
those conditions. So I believe the policy should be followed here really. I can
concede that the midnight restriction in the week do have a lot of those
premises are food at premises that operate until 2 a .m. 2 a .m. is a very
an argument here to say after 2am this becomes sensitive and that again is reflected in the
conditions that are on the existing operators there. But the applicant never really tried
to negotiate this with me. I did suggest electric vehicles and was simply told that they wanted
to go for 24 hours and weren't able to agree that condition. So it's up to the committee
obviously to make that decision as to whether that condition should be applied, whether
or not the business can can meet it but I think would satisfy my concerns that if after 2am
electric vehicles were conditioned for use of deliveries and where the operator is saying that
midnight to 3am is their their busiest time well I think that there's an argument to say well
stick to the policy hours of 2am I don't think that's a an unfair restriction on you if you were
ideally seeking 3am. I think the policies should still be followed in that regard.
So happy to answer any questions but I do believe the policy should be followed here and where
we're trying to be proactive here rather than reactive. I don't really want to be picking up
complaints six months down the line when this business has become popular or other businesses
have followed suit and we've got an awful lot of traffic going through this
area. The area that they come out onto is a very quiet dead road.
There's no other business there, really any other through traffic, other than to
get to the industrial centre. It doesn't exit onto a main busy
red route or thoroughfare. It is a quiet area other than for the fact that the
demand of delivery riders into this estate now, where the vast majority of the operators
cease at 2am and those that do go beyond that policy time, most ahead of that 2am cease,
but those that do go beyond 2am do have the electric vehicle condition and have accepted
that.
Thank you very much.
Councillors, questions?
That's very clear, thank you very much.
Thank you.
Councilman Justin?
Yeah, I mean, this application would be much more straightforward if the applicant was
delivering the goods himself, then he would know that he was using electric vehicles throughout.
And what we're asking to be considered here is random people from anywhere, from any website,
phoning in and placing an order and we have without any idea of who is actually
going to make the collection and in what vehicle and as such I'm not interested
in it it's wrong you know if the if the applicant runs its own set of electric
bikes electric vehicles it could cope with the conditions and I'd be sure it
But this open -ended 24 -hour delivery by anyone, by absolutely anyone in whatever vehicle they
may turn up in, is not acceptable.
Councillor, to point out to my, maybe I'm, we'll come back to the applicant in a minute,
but my understanding, it wasn't by anyone, it's by delivery Uber, it's by delivery drivers
who are, it's not sort of, you know, I think...
The gentleman has explained that there are feeder websites all using this, can use this site, you know,
and that one, if they weren't able to fulfill the order, they would bat it off to another person.
He said that, that he has no control over where the orders come from.
Respectfully, I think, Councillor, this is the Licensing Sub -Committee,
hearing and you've just dismissed it by saying you're not interested.
This is a business that operates in almost an identical way to one right next to us,
that already exists and operates outside of policy hours.
Would I say some planning and the fact that the next door has got a house
that gets you planning is irrelevant.
Excuse me.
Let's talk about this application, not other people's.
Sorry, Councillor and Mr. Daly.
Yeah, we'll try not to do cross -examining, but did you have a question, Councillor Justin,
for Mr. Newby -Walker?
The question is, how many people could potentially use the depot?
How many different websites and organisations could potentially have their order placed
and collected through this depot?
That sounds like a question for the applicant.
Do you have a question for, because at the moment we're asking questions of the environmental
health of our noise team, Mr. Nuby Walker.
Do you have any questions for him?
No.
Okay.
I do then.
Before we go back to, thank you, before we go back to the applicant.
So, some things I want to be clear on, I guess.
You've said that there are other license holders in the area who have this restriction on electric
pickup vehicles, which unfortunately this applicant is resistant to. You might not know this,
do you have any idea how they're able to decide which third party organization turns up?
How are they able to stick to these restrictions?
Do you think or do you have no idea on that?
I don't have an idea.
I mean, I believe they all still use third parties or
I mean, none of them have their own
delivery force, I believe. Again, to be honest,
I don't know. Quick comments I know a little bit more about
because that application went to appeal over this issue
and where that condition still remained in place.
It was softened slightly, but they were still required to use electric vehicles.
Potentially they don't make sales there using third parties,
or they are trying to ensure that the third parties
who have a way of ensuring that the third parties use electric vehicles. Air kitchens
I don't really know too much about to be honest. I mean there but I would stress that neither
of these are identical businesses to the applicant. Quick commerce is groceries and alcohol and
quick commerce would make a very big play over the fact that they are serving grocery
items where the alcohol is a bit of an add -on to a shopping basket of goods and
air kitchens is food only so it's not it's not an alcohol premises and I think
we can all have a little bit of logical assumption that the pursuit of alcohol
at certain times especially where it's not available in other locations in and
out of other ways is a different driver of demand and so this is the only purely
alcohol service that operates, is opposing to operate out of this area. And again, those that,
and there are others that are well within policy. There's a number of license holders in there that
are within policy. It's only quick commerce and air kitchens that are beyond and like I say,
air kitchens and quick commerce, we're happy to agree to that condition.
So if then if in on another timeline if the applicant had said okay you know what yeah
from two till six or whatever the whatever the gap that it seems like the other license
holders in that area have for guarantee in electric vehicles or whatever if the applicant
had agreed to that would you still be opposing this application?
No, I've always made it clear that my representation is based on the concern of vehicle noise from
those deliveries and a condition to minimize and mitigate the noise of delivery vehicles.
And I've done a little bit of research and surveys in the area previously when I was
dealing with quick commerce.
I know there's a significant difference between an electric vehicle and a motorized vehicle.
I know there are still some noises attached, but they you know it it's a much more discrete
Vehicle coming and going and if that was guaranteed that would address my concerns on this matter
That's good to know. Thank you
Okay, if there are no more questions for
For mr. Newby Walker from counselors. I'm gonna go back to the applicant
No more questions
Okay, so back to the end now. So what, thank you. And it's hard to hear stuff you disagree
with without having without speaking up. I get it. So this will be like a sense, I sense
that councillors might have some more questions for you. So I'm tempted to go through those,
to be honest, before you wrap up. Am I right, councillors? Do you have any more questions
for the applicant? Anything else that you wanted to…
I think so. You're okay, Councillor Marshall.
I'm fine with that. I'm okay. Councillor Justin, you're okay?
Yep, for now. Okay, wonderful. All right, so I mean, I
then in that case I mean it feels like one of the sticking points are a major
sticking point is this electric vehicle thing which are you fun you know you
explained why that would be difficult for for you and it to be honest when you
described it sounded very logical that does seem to make sense it seems unfair
what do you have any response to the argument that the other license holders
in the area who you pointed out you know they go through the night but they do
have this restriction on and they seem able to keep to it do you do you have
any comment on that? I've got no comment I mean Quick Commerce
operate under the brand called Zapp which is what you'll find online you
won't find Quick Commerce you'll find Zapp. Zapp advertise a whole different
range of products and as do these guys and they follow a very very similar
business model so whilst they might make the argument we sell groceries as do
this operation as well. I wasn't aware it had gone to an appeal and I wasn't aware the conditions had been softened down.
The two businesses are very, very similar in the way they operate. There isn't a huge discernible difference between the two.
Just going through the list of 24 -hour licenses in and around the area that they have got.
I'm not great in it, you can probably hear from my accent, London geography is not my strong point but I kind of have an idea.
So they've got Bromley, Greenwich, Lambeth, Mitcham, Tower Hamlets is going a bit further there, Baker Street is a little bit further up in the city there.
So they do operate these businesses without these conditions on them.
I do appreciate that it could potentially cause an issue,
but actually there's no specific evidence to say that it has done,
nor that it has done from the business.
But in answer to your question,
Councillor, as to the discussions that we could have had with Mr. Newby Walker,
I think the reason we're here is to make the case to
yourselves that what they don't want to do is inadvertently just make a sale.
They want to express to yourselves as
committee that they will operate electric vehicles through their own drivers and it's
more profitable to do so because you've got full control over it but it is really just having that
control. Some other businesses operate these sort of premises and as an independent consultant they've
done licenses for other types of premises and that might be single operators. These guys are they've
got a considerable number of premises all across London, Sheffield, Nottingham, all across the country.
the intention to bring it towards the committee was to hopefully be able to use third parties deliveries from this premises.
If you were minded to grant the application and you thought, okay, well, the president has been set and quick come ourself that condition around electric vehicles from the premises,
then obviously it is your want as a license and subcommittee.
What they would likely do is then fulfill that order, essentially from a separate depot.
I mean one of the aspects of this premises compared to the other premises is that it will act as a storage hub.
So alongside the premises and tower hamlets which is located in the arches,
they're big secure units that will be able to store a lot more stock that would then get
distributed as and when needed to be but that's obviously not a license for activity in that consideration.
Okay, so
So that's helpful.
I'm just trying this.
It's useful for us when we go off and have our conversations
if we think, OK, well, there felt
like there could be some movement on that
or there could be some movement on this.
I think now, unless there are any other questions
for my colleagues, I think it's fair to give you
a minute or two to just sort of wrap up,
because there have been various bits and pieces that suggested
then you might feel like you haven't had a chance to answer everything.
But before we do that, I'm looking around the room,
making sure I'm not missing any hands. I'm not. Okay. Um, yeah.
Would you like to, you might feel that everything's been answered.
And that's perfectly, you know, nothing wrong with brevity, but if you,
if you choose to, you have a,
you have a minute to wrap up your case.
Thank you. Just to sum up, I think these are experienced operators.
They operate a similar business model to the other ones within the area.
They've proven by having a number of licenses in and around London that have never been reviewed or
haven't had any issues that they can operate in a responsible manner. We would ask you prospectually
to grant the application as submitted if you were minded to grant the application perhaps to
add in a condition similar to Mr Newby Walker's around any deliveries made from the premises by
the operator should use electric vehicles. Wonderful. Okay that's really helpful.
I think now that wraps up this part of the meeting.
Sorry, Chair, so sorry to interrupt. Could we just check if Mr. Newby Walker has any
closing remarks he'd like to make as a representation?
Apologies, I'm not sure.
I'm not sure that we've covered that.
I'm so sorry, Mr. Newby Walker.
Yeah, no, thank you. I usually go first, I think, on the closing comment. But yeah, thanks
for remembering me. Yeah, no, I think I've said my piece and I think if they are willing
to offer a condition on the electric vehicles that resolves my concerns here. But yeah,
otherwise I'll just reiterate, I'm not here just to defend the policy blindly, but there is an
impact when businesses go beyond that policy and that's why we look for additional conditions.
I think Mr Grano mentioned that right at the start, looking for additional conditions to
ensure that operations outside of those normal policy hours are appropriate. Thank you.
Thank you very much. That's very helpful. Okay, so now that concludes the first
applications discussion at the public part of the meeting, after we've concluded the second
application. We'll retire to a separate room and we'll make our decision. The decision,
the reasons, any legal guidance that we've had will be supplied to you with any information
about rights of appeal within five working days. But I thank you, Mr. Daly, for your
time and Mr. Newby -Walker. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chair.
I just quickly need to step away for one moment, I'll be back in a moment.
Yeah okay. Becky who do we have for... I'm seeing the new people here. Who do we have for the second?
We do. So we have Belinda from the Met Police and the Met Police representation, Jeffrey Chiu.
And then we have Mr. Mohammed from J. Prewley Solicitors and he's representing the license holder for this next hearing.
Wonderful. Thank you very much.
Welcome both of you. We're just waiting, just giving a slight comfort break.
Apologies, I had somebody ring the doorbell.
It was at the delivery driver on an electric bike, I wonder.
No, it was actually somebody collecting a package.
They may have been going off on an electric bike though.
That's good to hear.
Good to hear.
Okay.
Are we ready?
Can I carry straight on or do I need to do anything else?
I can carry straight on I think.
You can, yeah.
Thank you.
Okay, so we'll now be considering agenda item four,
the application relating to Elam Enterprise. Excuse me, sorry, does this meeting need to be held in private?
That's correct. So we just need to read out the wording to exclude the press and the public.
Okay. Okay. So before we move to the next application for consideration at tonight's meeting,
I've been advised that a request has been received for the meeting to be held in closed session as
the application relates to an ongoing police investigation. I will ask the applicant,
the license holder if they agree to the meeting being held in closed session, which I believe
they already have. Yeah, thank you. I now formally move to a vote to ask members of the license
subcommittee if they agree to exclude the press and the public for item four of the agenda,
because it's likely that they exempt information under regulation 14 of the Licensing Act 2003,
and as described in paragraphs 1 and 7 and part 1 of the schedule 12a of the
local government act 1972 would disclose to them if they were present and it is
considered that in all circumstances of the case the public interest in
maintaining the exemption
outweighs the public interest in disclosure of the information. Do you vote yes on that,
fellow councillors? Thank you, thank you. If you can just bear with me, Chair, I'll confirm
when the webcast has stopped. Thank you. Thank you.