Children's Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Tuesday 11 February 2025, 7:30pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

Children's Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Tuesday, 11th February 2025 at 7:30pm 

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Welcome to this meeting.
My name is Councillor Sheila Boswell, and I am chair of the Children's Overview and
Scrutiny Committee.
The normal procedure is that we do a roll call of everyone who is present.
So, members of the committee, I will now call your names in alphabetical order.
You know the format.
Please switch on your microphone to confirm your attendance.
Once you've confirmed your attendance, please remember to switch off your microphone.
So I'm going to go through the list of the committee membership in alphabetical order.
Councillor Apps.
Present.
Good evening, Chair.
Councillor Burchill.
Good evening, Chair.
Councillor Corner.
Good evening.
Councillor Crivelli.
Good evening.
Councillor Davies.
Good evening, Chair.
Councillor Lee.
Good evening.
Councillor Osborne.
Good evening, everybody.
Councillor Owens.
Good evening, everybody.
And Councillor Paul.
Good evening.
Thank you.
Now, this committee, unusually here at Wandsworth Council, has a number of co -opted members.
So I would like to welcome Ms. Nabila Haroon, who is with us this evening.
And I would also like to welcome Mr. Anthony Langdon, who is a parent governor, and also
Mrs. Irene Wolfson -Holm, who is from the Southwark Diocese Board of Education, Church
of England.
Good evening.
And I believe joining us online is Ms Sam Gower from the Catholic Southwark Archdiocese.
Is Sam with us?
I can't see.
Yes, welcome.
Yeah, that's correct.
Thank you.
Welcome to you, Sam.
I apologize for the back of my head.
I would also like to welcome our cabinet member for children, Councillor Kate Stock.
Good evening, everybody.
And as you can see, we have a number of offices present around the table and in the room,
and they will introduce themselves as they address the committee.
So welcome, everyone, to today's Children's Overview and Scrutiny Committee meeting.
Welcome.
And I'd actually like to begin by expressing gratitude to the entire Breadstoves School
community in Broadstairs, Kent for hosting our committee members for a site visit last
month.
It was an absolute privilege to visit the school.
We want to thank you for facilitating our meaningful and constructive conversation with
the staff and also we spoke to the parents online.
And I think we would all join in saying thank you,
those of us that went thank you to you
for giving us such a warm reception.
It's National Apprenticeship Week this week.
We always like to flag out one of these special weeks
at committee and we want to recognize that.
It's a vital occasion that highlights
the significant impact apprenticeships have
on individuals, businesses and our wider economy.
During our previous meeting, we talked about and explored the Council's really, really
impressive youth offer here in Wandsworth and we highlighted, as we so often do at this
committee, our ambitions for all our young people in Wandsworth.
I'm proud to say that in partnership with various stakeholders, and we have some very high profile stakeholders here in Wandsworth, we're very lucky.
Our council is dedicated to nurturing talent and promoting career development for our young people.
And I know whenever I speak at schools to young people who are soon to be leaving,
I always say that they are so lucky because they were not only born in the
Greatest city in the world. They are also in a borough which has some of the most
Amazing opportunities for them because we have Apple headquarters here. We have all sorts of
Opportunities for our young people and to grab it some grab it with both hands. I'm sure we'd all agree on
that
Okay
So that brings us to agenda items.
So we are agenda item one, which is declaration of interests.
Are there any declarations of interest, pecuniary or otherwise?
Councillor Corner.
It's non -pecuniary interest, but I am a governor of the pupil referral unit here in Wainsworth.
Thank you very much.
Is that noted?
Chair?
I'm not sure that it is really a special interest, but I am chair of the pupil referral unit.
I ought to at least make that clear.
Thank you very much, Councillor Osborne.
Yes, I suppose it comes under non -registable interest, but as we've got a paper on that.
Thank you to both of you.
And then for, please declare, no sorry,
I'm in the wrong place, here we go.
Co -opted members, we know this on the voting,
but it's just to remind you about voting on papers
for executive decision that are to do with
the education function of this council
and not children's services.
So you wouldn't be voting on those.
We've got two papers, which are for decision this evening,
our finance papers and you can vote on both of those because they're connected
to our education function. That brings me to item two which is the minutes.

2 Minutes, 3rd December 2024

The minutes of the previous meeting held on the 3rd December agreed so we take
that that Councillor Davies was present. Thank you very much. And that brings us to item
3. So this is a petition presented to the Council referred formally to children's overview

3 Petition presented to the Council and referred formally to Children's Overview and Scrutiny Committee (Paper No. 25-63)

and scrutiny committee, paper number 25 to 63. Before starting on this, I would just
like to say that the council is acutely aware of the profound effects this
process is having on students, families, educators and the broader Broadstairs
Kent community. And we are steadfast in our dedication to listening, supporting
and acting with empathy and kindness. Our commitment remains to support our
families and staff as we navigate these steps together,
addressing any issues that may arise
with sensitivity and care,
that everyone should bear that in mind this evening.
Now, we have a deputation request.
It's a separate paper, number 25 to 80.
So formally, at this point,
I, because we have a deputation request, I have to ask the committee whether they agree
to receive the deputation and I have to read out this wording.
For the committee to receive the deputation, understanding order number 13 in connection
with the report on the petition presented to the council and referred formally to Children's
Overview and Scrutiny Committee, paper number 25 to 63, in relation to the consultation
on the closure of Bradstowe Residential School
and children's homes.
And it's in the Agenda Pack.
And a copy of the deputation request
is included in the supplementary agenda,
which was circulated earlier today.
So, committee, are we agreed to receive the deputation?
Agreed. Thank you very much.
I now have to read out, no I don't, not committee word, I'm going to ask Sarah Adams to come
to the table.
I think Ms. Wright is going to bring, who is the lead deputation member.
Sarah, if you'd like to come to the table and join us.
Good evening, Sarah.
I'm going to ask you to outline the points in the deputation, and you have five minutes
to address the committee when you're ready.
Thank you, is that on?
Good evening, and thank you for giving us the opportunity
to address this committee tonight.
On behalf of the Bradstow community,
our leadership, governors, staff,
and most of all, the children and families we serve,
we appreciate your time and engagement.
We are especially grateful to those of you who visited our school and witnessed firsthand
both the complexities and the vulnerabilities of our children.
Your conversations with families revealed the heart -wrenching challenges they face just
to reach Bradstow, a place where their children are finally happy, secure and able to thrive.
The proposal to close Bradstow has left our families in a state of desperation.
For them, this decision is not just a matter of short -term education and care, it has
life -changing consequences.
The closure of Bradstow would have profound and lasting
impacts, not just for our children and their families,
but for the entire national special educational needs
landscape.
Sorry.
It's not breaking up very well.
Can I just pass this to you?
Yeah, of course.
That's OK.
Sorry, go back.
The closure of Bradstow would have profound and lasting
impacts not just for our children and their families, but for the entire national special
educational needs landscape. There is already a severe shortage of residential and specialist
placements for the most complex and vulnerable children. Without Bradstow, many of these children
face bleak futures. Some will likely be placed in inappropriate settings where their needs
cannot be properly met, putting them at significant risk. Others may be forced to return home without
any meaningful educational support due to the lack of suitable alternatives.
Those who do find placements will likely be sent further away from their families,
increasing their isolation at a time when they need stability and care the most.
We have submitted a detailed consultation response, which outlines the financial
viability of the school and presents clear opportunities for Bradstow to thrive moving
forward. Contrary to the consultation's premise, Bradstow is not only viable,
it has the very real opportunity to grow and thrive.
Our leadership team has worked to present
a sustainable path forward,
and we are confident that Bradstow can continue
to deliver the high quality care and education
that so many children and families
desperately need and deserve.
We are also pleased to share that Bradstow
is officially partners with Cygnus Academy Trust.
We are now actively conducting mutual due diligence
and are keen to move forward
with the academization of the school.
We ask that the committee supports us
in enabling this transition to take place
with appropriate timelines and to find agreement on a deal
that works for both parties, ensuring continuity of care
and education for our children.
At Bradstow, challenges are not seen as obstacles,
but as opportunities for growth.
This mindset has allowed us to identify practical,
achievable solutions for concerns raised
in the consultation.
More importantly, we have a clear vision
to ensure Bradstow continues to serve as a beacon of hope
for children and families. Our business plan is simple. One, restructure staffing to ensure
an appropriate overhead for the number of pupils. Two, reset fees based on a newly established
cost and a new court offer of one -to -one provision informed by a detailed needs -based assessment
of the Bradstow cohort. Three, grow pupil numbers back up to 60 sustainably over time,
increasing costs only in line with pupil growth and demand.
By growing steadily over the next three years,
we can build healthy margin into our revenues,
recover the deficit, and establish a sustainable surplus
to safeguard the school's future.
This is not a typical school closure
driven by declining enrollment, quite the opposite.
Demand for our services is increasing.
Even under the shadow of closure,
local authorities are still seeking places at Bradstow
because they have nowhere else to turn.
Closing our school would exacerbate an already dire situation, leaving countless children
without the support they need.
Bradstow is more than a school, it is a community.
Former students and families remain connected to us, and we continue to support one another
long after children leave our care.
Our dedicated staff see each child as an individual, not just a list of diagnoses or challenges.
We break down barriers, challenge societal beliefs, and advocate fiercely for the children
we serve.
Our community stands united in the belief that there will always be a solution.
Our business plan is clear, achievable and rooted in our commitment to providing children
with the care, education and future they deserve.
Our Academy Partner sickness is committed to driving a successful transition to a new
oversight structure which offers new opportunities for the future.
Together these proposals refute the claims that the school cannot be financially viable
and has no viable alternative to closure, which were the central tenets of the closure
proposal. We urge you to consider not just the facts and figures which we can
evidence, but also the moral imperative to do what is right.
Right. So fulfills a strong and growing need in our society, and it is a place
of hope, aspiration and opportunity. Together, we can ensure it remains so
for generations to come.
I'll ask. It is clear that one's worth local authority is seeking to bring to
an end to its oversight and responsibilities. You have reached five
minutes so I can bring it to a close. Thank you. So I'm now going to ask the
committee if they have any questions for Sarah Adams. Councillor Paul. Thank you chair.
Thank you for your insightful address.
As we strive to ensure the best educational outcomes for all children, can you share with
us, the committee, the current Ofsted rating of the school and highlight any key findings
from the most recent inspection?
I'm particularly interested in what aspects of the inspection were praised and also any
sort of issues of improvement that was identified, and also to understand how you were intending
to address those.
So currently we have had a number of offset inspections over the last year or so.
Many of those have been linked to the children's homes inspections.
So we had three registered provisions in the children's home, so one 38 -week provision
and 252 week homes that had separate,
they had separate, what's the word I'm looking for?
Registrations, thank you.
So they were all inspected separately.
So we had many inspections going on at the same time.
The findings were very similar
across all three of the registrations,
and they linked to administration of medication
and concerns around those areas in the main.
Those areas, I'm pleased to say, have been addressed.
So our most recent inspection for the children's home,
which was back in November now, just before Christmas,
was good overall, with one requirement still outstanding
that was linked to health care plans matching up
with some of the administration.
But it was not a major cause for concern.
The education inspection, that happened
at the end of the last academic year.
So previously were outstanding the year before.
Then we had an unannounced sort of inspection
under section 8 that looked at safeguarding specifically to see if it was effective. They
deemed at the time that it was effective. But then around six weeks later, the Ofsted
education decided that there wasn't enough evidence for that judgment to be so. So they
came with three senior HMI for the education inspection to look at safeguarding again.
They deemed it as effective but triggered a full inspection. So all areas within the
Education of state, which equality of education,
behavior and attitudes, and personal development
were outstanding, and leadership and management
was deemed as required improvement.
So therefore, the whole judgment was
moved to requires improvement from outstanding.
But we are very confident that we've already
addressed the issues, which were around parental communication
and some issues around making sure
that parents were in touch with incidents of behaviors
of concern when they occurred.
So we've done a lot of work around that.
and I'm confident that if any inspector came in,
we would be back up to outstanding.
Do you have a supplement?
Yeah, just wanted to understand,
because you were saying previously in terms of,
could you give me like the timelines
of the years and things?
Yep, so we had an inspection in 2023 for education
that was outstanding across all areas, outstanding overall.
And we had an inspection in 2024.
I think it was around May time
to say that safeguarding was effective.
and then in June, I think it was in 2024, we had a full inspection
and that was the required improvement overall.
And then the care home, there are multiple inspections
throughout the year, you know, academic year 2023 to 24
and continue because they come biannually anyway
and they can come in and do monitoring and assurance visits
whenever they see fit.
So we've had a number of those over the year.
We are very linked up with our lead inspector, so we are open and honest and transparent about where we are.
And we were able to demonstrate that in the November inspection about where we are, the improvements we made,
and where we are moving to as well, with reference to looking at outstanding.
Councillor Osborne, I think you have a question, and then Councillor Corner.
Yes, thank you for your presentation.
I note that the trade union, the GMB, expressed concerns about the situation at the school.
Can you tell us in detail how confident are you that the school community, parents yes,
but the school community as represented, the staff at the school as represented by the
unions are actually supportive of your proposals for the way forward?
I would say I'm very confident that they want to move forward with the proposals that we're
suggesting.
The article was disappointing, I think, for GMB members, and they have expressed concerns
about being within the GMB but do not wish to leave the GMB because they don't want to
be in a position where they haven't got representation at the moment.
That's what's being said on the ground.
Many members of the GMB are not accepting of the line that has been taken with regard
to that.
Councillor Osbourne, do you want to come back?
I do.
Can you give us a bit more detail?
How do you know, I mean, is there any expression of this disagreement by the GMB on the ground,
as you put it, with the position that's been officially put by the GMB?
How are we supposed to sort out the difference between the two?
What's the evidence for what GMB on the ground is saying?
Yeah, there was an indicative ballot to confirm nonconfidence in the leadership and to look
at potential strike action. Obviously, in terms of meeting the young, you know, it's
down to the GMB to decide whether or not they propose those actions. But many staff have
come to different colleagues across the board and expressed that that's not an avenue that
they wish to support. But obviously, that's not my, you know, that's not for me to say
one way or another.
So what was the result of the ballot?
It was 80 I think it was 83 percent non -confidence and around 85 for strike action
It's not clear on what the data is that sits underneath that not non -confidence in leadership of
Yeah
Leadership of the school. Yes. Yeah, so 83 percent non -confidence in leadership of the school
Yeah, 85 percent for strike action. That's that's my understanding. Yes
But it's not clear what the figures are that sit underneath that. Thank you, Sarah. I think Councillor corner would like to come in now
Thank you chair, and thank you miss Adams for your really compelling presentation to this committee
and
Thank you to everyone from the Bradstow community who's traveled a long way to be here this evening
We really appreciate it just on a point of information. I think this GMB
statement
That's been referred to
On the 28th of January the GMB actually said that they were calling on Wandsworth Council to save the stall and residential unit from closure.
So in that regard I'm really glad to hear GMB taking that position.
So I don't think Councillor Osborne was being entirely representative of what the GMB was saying.
However, I think given recent discussions at this committee, it's generally agreed
that the long -term future of Bradstow lies outside of control of Wandsworth and probably
more in an academy -type way of operating.
So Ms. Adams, could you talk about the discussions you've had with academies and how long you
think that it will take to transition to Academy status and also the impact that
the consultation is having with the school at the moment especially with
regards and that it's pointed out in your report and response to the
consultation I think 40 members of staff have already submitted their
resignations and others others might be thinking of doing so because of the
uncertainty of the school so I'd really like to the committee to be clear on
how likely it is you are going to be able to
academise and the risk that the consultation
presents to the school being able to successfully
conclude that process.
Yeah, if I may I can pass that over to my colleague.
So if you'd like to just talk to me.
If you just want to ask me to enable my videos.
You can just pass that.
Good evening everybody, nice to see you.
I'm Paul Edwire.
I'm a parent of a young child at Bradstow today, and I'm a member of the Board of Governors.
I've been particularly involved since the sudden announcement on November the 11th,
trying to work with the school and the whole community to find alternatives, because this
was one of the key tenets cited behind the rationale for the school's closure.
So in a very short period of time, we have done an analysis of 18 different academy trusts.
We have conducted research on their performance, their history, their financial status, the
position of all of their schools, their vision, and their experience.
We shortlisted seven and contacted the CEOs of all seven.
We have had positive feedback from four of them, one of whom we, as Sarah has already said,
has now signed an agreement with us.
We have the very strong intent to make the academisation of the school a reality.
We are extremely confident, extremely impressed in fact, with the professionalism and determination
of this particular leadership team and its trust.
We have a strong alignment of vision and intent for the future of the school and have been
very impressed by their diligence and speed of progress in working with us.
They've already spoken with a number of the officers here at Wandsworth and I know
you're becoming increasingly familiar with them.
We have another three academies sitting in the wings who I have been able to say thank
you for your interest.
Trust. We have an academy with whom we have now entered a formal agreement, and we would
like to pause further discussions with those other academic trusts in order to focus everybody's
efforts and resources onto a single path. They wait in the wings, and they have told
us if we need to speak to them again, they're ready to do so. Two of those are national
specialists in this space
and are very interested in the credentials of the school. So we feel in a very strong
position
that the academization of this school is viable,
it's eminently achievable, and it awaits us.
It awaits us. In terms of timelines, we've laid out clearly
with the Academy what the steps in this journey ahead of us are.
I'd be happy to share those with you if you wanted to hear them.
But we're all working as fast as possible but as thoroughly as possible to make sure
that this is a success for everybody concerned.
We are appreciative that the feedback from Wandsworth so far has been supportive, and
we must trust and hope that you continue to provide that support, because it's essential
for this school to have a future.
In terms of timelines, I think it – well, I hope it stands to reason that we're working
as fast as we possibly can, but we must not cut corners.
The other thing to bear in mind here is there are a series of steps with the DFE that we
will have to work through, there's a consultation process for academization in its own right
that has to be properly conducted.
These things cannot be rushed.
We want to make sure that we have the proper focus and space to do that job properly and
to make sure that the transition into that academy is seamless and smooth and professionally
managed
thank you very much for such a comprehensive answer
on i think council but chill hang had you next in asking uh... a question
but without the to miss out on this
uh...
bullets it's sort of
probably to miss out on the answer to also too
it's right right yes it's it's it's it
probably comes
To parent governors well, I can quickly answer and then hundred over. Yeah, so so
Thank you so much for showing us around the school. It was very enlightening
I at the meeting that we had here before Christmas. I didn't have the full feeling of the school
But going there I
Really felt how important everything you were doing was
So the premise of the consultation was all about the financial viability of the school.
But if we – I would like to ask Ms. Adams the point of the education that you're giving
these young people is helping quite a lot of them,
being able to continue with possibly only a one to one care,
one to two care, they're going to be able to function
in supported living in a not too expensive way.
If they don't have this provision at Bradstone,
they might end up in one of these long -stay hospitals
where the provision is not good,
or somewhere where the provision is going to cost an awful lot.
So to me it seems as if it's a false economy,
closing the school,
because if we can get these children into their adult life
able to control their emotions a little bit,
That is a real investment into the children's lives.
Do you have a question?
Well, maybe somebody could actually explain to the committee what the school is doing and how that...
And do you agree with me that it is an investment in their lives?
I can give you, try to give you a succinct answer to some implied questions in what you're saying.
Thank you for that.
This school changes lives. There is no question. It changes lives in the short, medium and the long term.
I know from my own child's time at this school the dramatic change in his ability to cope with situations around him,
environments, sensitive issues that he struggles with, and the ability to interact with others,
have dramatically developed in his time at the school.
There are many testimonials that a number of you have heard from ex -parents who have
moved on from this school and remain in contact simply because of the difference it's made
to their entire family's lives.
The school equips its young people with the tools, the techniques, and the behavioral
attitudes to be able to thrive in the future.
Parents speak in amazement at the difference that this school can make for them.
In terms of cost of the provision, that was another element, really, that you were referring
to.
I think you should be able to see in the detailed report that we provided you the analysis that
we've done on the financial position of the school as we now see it moving
forwards, uh, is very favorably and competitively benchmarked with a range
of other schools providing comparable provisions.
We also know that for many of the parents faced with a dramatic change of
their life, should this school be closed, they face alternatives which
may be at great distances away, which will be higher cost for all concerned,
let alone the impact on that young person's prospects.
Thank you very much, Mr. O 'Doherty.
I think I've got Councillor Davies next and then Councillor...
Thank you.
I want to express my gratitude to all the teachers and the care workers at Bradstove
the dedication in helping every children thrive and you know and thank you you
know it's good to hear your testaments but the paper refers to Kent's owing
2 .7 million pounds and which 1 .9 million pounds Kent County Council a
categorically refusing to pay.
Sorry, this might, I mean, I don't know if this is what you just said.
I might pass this over to my head of business colleague.
If you mind swapping.
So, yeah, so really what I'd like to know, please, is what measures have the school taken to engage with paying councils,
including Kent County Council on the non -payment of fees for the children supported at Bradstone.
We know that the school leaders, whether it be the senior leadership or also the governors,
they are ultimately responsible to have the responsibility for that management of the
income and expenditure. Thank you. So thank you very much. I'm Polly Benton. I'm the school
the details relating to the financial position of the school. I was aware of some of it at
interview. But what was apparent to me at that point was that although my predecessors
had been across the situation with unpaid debt, they had not been leading at any stage
the conversations with any of the local authorities on unpaid debt. Those conversations have sat
with the officers at Wandsworth to date. They have had the meetings. They have led the correspondence.
They have led the legal challenge to Kent on the unpaid debt. That is not—it has not
ever been, in my understanding, the school leading either the charging, the setting of
fees, the sending of invoices, nor the chasing of debt with the local authorities. We would
very much like that to change. We would like to be involved in those conversations and
we have talked to the offices at Wandsworth and we are in agreement that we will be stepping
into those conversations to support. We are very keen to support in evidencing the provision
for the Kent disputed fees in particular and providing anything that we can, whether that
is paperwork, whether that is evidencing the need for provision of those young people to
support in that dispute, but we have not, I have not to date been included or involved
in those conversations with Kent County Council and so do not have the ability at this stage
to chase that debt. But we do want to be involved. We absolutely want going forward for conversations
with commissioners at all local authorities to be conversations that are had initially,
Initially jointly between the school and ones of council and going forward between the school
sickness Academy and the and the local authorities
Did you want to ask
I can hear the dedication of the governor's
here, but the governors in the past, they haven't taken a role in auditing finances
or looking at or, you know, monitoring what's happening.
The governors have of course taken, I can't speak for the governors, I'm happy to pass
it over, of course the governors have been across the finances, but they have never been
responsible for the chasing of debt that has sat with one's council offices.
Thank you for that.
Councillor Lee, I think I have got next to then Councillor Crivelli.
My question was answered.
I will hand over to Councillor Crivelli.
Can I ask a question for Ms Adams? I don't know how familiar you are with other schools
in Wandsworth and the SEND provision that they have, but one of the arguments that you
put forward at Bradstow is obviously that you offer a specialist facility and if Bradstow
is not there, that specialist facility wouldn't be offered. Can I just ask you to draw a comparison
between the facilities that you offer at Bradstow and other SEND schools in Wandsworth in particular.
I would ask you, I don't know if you're familiar with PADC, which we are recently investing
in an expansion, and if you could do that, I'd be very grateful so committee members
can understand the distinction between your school and other SEND schools.
Okay, yes, I am aware of the Day Special School provision, and I understand the investment
that is currently going into PADC, and that's admirable.
The children that Bradstow serve are young people that need a residential and specialist education environment.
Many of our children have come to us through the school system, so they've already been through the day's special school system, unfortunately.
And when young people arrive with us at Bradstow, they have had placement breakdown, usually several.
They have experienced trauma from placement breakdown and continual moving.
Their families have experienced trauma and breakdown of their family unit.
And then sometimes it's because of the circumstances at home are just too unsafe to manage for families.
Families have told us their experience and many of them have had their children at home because no day school provision would be able to take them and meet their need.
So unfortunately our children do come to us with that back story.
So they have already been through a school like Paddock and we do take children from Wandsworth
that have not been able to have their needs met at a special school in Wandsworth.
In terms of the children's needs, it's usually the behaviours of concern that our young people
demonstrate because of their needs.
That means that they come to our specialist provision.
They come with complex challenges, you know, that they've learned over many, many years
is to have their needs met.
And they center around their needs
around sensory processing,
their needs around communication.
We do positive behavior support,
which is about understanding
what the behavior is telling us.
It's a dialogue.
And we have to unpick all of that for each individual
and teach them a new way of communicating their needs.
And that is what we do at Bradstone every day.
So our staff team work towards that.
So it's great that PADAC are having a lot of investment.
I think that's that's fantastic. You know the more SCN provision the better but that won't serve the children that attend Brad stay
unfortunately
Thank you um councillor apps
Thank you, and thank you first of all for coming from the school in Kent today
Having made the journey as part of our visit. You know I really appreciate that
It's a distance you know and it's a real effort for you to come here tonight, so thank you so much
I wanted to ask about, you know, you've been very clear and it's been very useful to hear about the specialized help for children, which is so important.
I know that we need to ensure that there's a financial sustainability for the school in the future,
so that we can safeguard those children and make sure that those children are well looked after.
I understand that the work that you've done indicates that the cost per child is about
254 ,000.
So what I'd be interested to know is what work you've done, perhaps with our officers,
perhaps yourselves, to find out how many of the ten local authorities that currently have
children at Bradstow, how many have agreed to pay at this level at the moment?
Thank you. So in terms of the second part of your question, how many have agreed to
pay at this level? We have not yet at this stage had those conversations with each of
the local authorities. Our benchmarking gives us great confidence. Our benchmarking includes
schools that we know placements have been our young people have been assessed for placements
whether or not they're available. But we know that our benchmarking is in line with very
similar comparable provisions that our young people would be being considered for. We haven't
had those conversations with local authorities yet for a few reasons. And one is that we
still need to talk to local authorities about the unpaid fees from the autumn, the spring
term fees, the summer term fees and then that forward looking conversation for
September. We are in the process with the support of the ones with officers
of setting up those meetings to have those conversations about fees. And
they are, of course, conversations we need to have in the time frames we've
had to us so far for putting this business plan together for coming up
for doing the work to calculate those fees. We have not had the opportunity
to have those conversations, but given the benchmarking, I'm confident that
we are in line with the broader provisions that are comparable.
In terms of the work that was done to come to those fees, we've done a very big costing
exercise.
We have a restructure proposal that we have been in conversation with, ones with offices
about, bringing our costs right down in the short term while we have fewer pupil numbers,
And that has enabled us to do a detailed pricing analysis that
allocates our cost across our day provision and our residential provision and we've done a
Detailed bottom -up to get to those fee levels
Thank you very much for that answer. We better say thank you
I have councillor Osborne next then councillor Owens then councillor corner, and then I saw miss her ruin with your hand up
Yep, and then I think we need to move on to the other part of the
Yeah
Okay, just can I give notice that I really ought to come back and explain in greater detail
The position of the GMB because Councillor Cornors description of it was less than a hundred percent
Fully accurate, but never mind. I'll come back to park that for now. I'll come back to it the
The question I want to ask is about the academization and that's a decision for governors to make
and I'm interested to know what has happened already and what's happening as we go forward
on this possibility of academization.
And there were some points made earlier on that I want to come back and check up on.
So, first of all, obviously, if you're looking at academization, then there is a premium
on having a strong financial position to go into that kind of a relationship.
So before we got to this process, has there been any contact?
Was anybody approached beforehand about that kind of academy -type relationship?
We've heard about Cygnus this evening,
but then we heard a reference, I think, earlier on
to three other bodies waiting in the wings,
and I'd be interested to know what those other three were,
and if they'd been in contact with them earlier
than the process we're involved in at the moment.
Thank you for the question.
Let me try and work my way through that
in a structured way if I can.
First of all, you said something about beforehand,
beforehand, you know, what sort of assessments and analyses were done beforehand.
If you're referring, if you mean by beforehand, prior to the declaration of the intent to
enter consultation closure, the answer is none.
There was no contact with any academy prior to the announcement to initiate consultation
for closure of the school.
That was something of a surprise for us, and it was particularly notable that one of the
key tenets of the closure rationale was that there were no viable alternatives.
All we've been able to ascertain about that is that there was a conversation that was
held with the DFE, and it was a view expressed that there would not be any academy interest
in the school. That's all we know. What we can say is that we were not aware of, we were
not involved with, nor did the governors until November 11th have any clear need to have
any conversations about the academization of the school. Since then, as I said earlier,
we have done our own detailed research, we have reached out, we have had conversations,
we have had day -long meetings with a number of CEOs and leadership teams of different
academy trusts.
They're all multi -academy trusts, no single.
Our analyses to shortlist those that we wanted to speak to included, as I mentioned, an assessment
of prior performance, Ofsted findings on all of their schools across their portfolios.
The academies ranged from having a complement of three schools up to over 30 schools, so
it was quite a range that we looked at.
And financial status was also a key part of our thinking, and that was on multiple levels.
You know, it was about debt levels.
It was about cash in hand and in bank.
It was about the progression of their cash positions and their investment plans over
recent years.
Now, all of this, of course, is subject to further due diligence at this time, so we're
working through that together.
We have a long list of questions we are asking of sickness to make sure that we are happy,
that they bring all that we hope that they do.
So far, all the lights are green.
And I said that we had some other academies that we have spoken to, and after those meetings,
we have taken the decision to speak to them and say, because we want to focus our efforts
on one particular leading academy with whom we have now signed a mutual agreement to proceed.
We want to put those other academies on hold to not waste anybody's time.
Does that clarify?
Just a quick supplementary.
Do I take it then that you're not in a position to name the other three academies that you've
talked to?
I don't wish to in a public environment like this.
I don't think that's fair for them and I don't think it's appropriate.
I hope you all respect that.
Absolutely.
Councillor Owens and then Councillor Corner.
Thank you.
And the visit we had last month was incredibly helpful.
It was a really interesting day that we spent at the school.
I just have a couple of questions.
It ties in a bit to the academisation and obviously the proposal, but also around what
we've been led to believe in terms of demand.
And because we had been told at various stages that the numbers of children that are in residential
places that once were placed alone has sort of collapsed and numbers that I'd heard, I
may be getting these wrong, but at one point we had maybe 50 children and now it's 18 or
something like that.
And that is not unusual across the country.
And at the same time, obviously, you yourselves have local authorities that you're talking
to.
But another area we've also learned is that subsequently that obviously the children that
are currently in the school all apparently have places, virtually all of them will have
places by the end of the school year.
I'm just curious as to where you obviously see demand coming from, because there must
be demand.
As you have said in the past, there are children who won't have places, even though we've been
told something else.
And where those children will be coming from and how you would be building the school up.
Because obviously at the moment there's only 28 pupils with a capacity for 62, and you're
not clearly overnight going to be doing that.
Thank you.
Yeah, I can give you some brief responses to that.
My colleagues may wish to add to it.
Let's bear in mind the context.
There are very limited schools nationwide
that have the capability and the levels of provision
that could support and cater for the needs
of the cohorts of children that Bradstow has
and continues to serve.
I'm a parent.
I've done my own research. We've been doing our own research for the last four years.
It took us best part of 18 months to even get a chance of getting our child a foot in
the door at Bradstone. We have done our own research to establish how many schools, and
of those few schools, how many places might they be able to offer us, because that's what's
important here. So we have a situation now where there are very few schools that we could
consider. And we have so far been turned down by multiple schools on the basis
that they do not have the places available. They're all full and
oversubscribed. There's your first point of evidence about the demand that's out
there. Second point of evidence is that we have brought to continue to have
every week multiple new requests from local authorities and families who are
desperate to find a placement of this kind for their children. Some of these
children are in desperate situations, their families alongside them. We have
more than enough demand to make sure that we can run the school at capacity.
As we all know, there is a desperate need for placements like this across the
country. Thank you. I have Councillor Corner next and then Ms. Haroon and Ms.
Wilson -Holm and then I think we really must move on to the next part of this which is
then to go to the paper and members of the committee will be able to ask officers questions.
So Councillor –
Thank you, Chair. I actually think Mr O 'Dwyer gave what would be the answer to my question
very eloquently just then so I won't ask a specific question although I would just
draw attention, the committee's attention again to the letter from the Chief Executive
officer of the Cygnus Academy's Trust who has asked us today to support the
requests to halt the proposed closure. Thank you Councillor Corner. Ms Haroon.
Yeah thank you Paul for sharing such a comprehensive report with us. So I have
a question regarding the school finances. So on the page number seven you just
mentioned, there is a surplus in here, 2324, which is roughly 9 ,000.
And then 2425, you budgeted roughly 1 million.
So my question is, is kind of like very swirly unbudgeted the finance balance by the variance
almost 500 percent?
So could you clarify this point, because to be very honest, this is kind of very unrealistic.
So, sorry, just to clarify, so the variance between the 24 to 25 budgeted amounts and
then the estimated where we're going to end up.
So the difference between those two is the fact that in the summer the decision was taken
to reduce the pupil numbers drastically.
The 52 -week homes were closed.
At that point, there was a rebudgeting exercise, again, before I joined the school, but there
was a rebudgeting exercise done that the outlook for the year with almost half the
number of pupils was very different. So that's the reason for the very different look of
the original budgeted numbers and the estimated numbers for the end of this year. And apologies,
that wasn't made clear in the narrative for the table.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Ms. Wilson -Homme, did you have a question?
You may have answered much of this already.
I was just wanting to ask specifically about Kent.
The school is obviously in Kent and a good number of the peoples come from Kent.
We have been told that actually Kent think that they can find alternative educational
provisions.
Do you feel that that is the case?
And if so, would that actually drive them,
well, make the budgeting that you have done actually
non -boy, shall we say?
Let me think carefully how to respond to this question.
I'm a Kent parent.
We had our first engagement with anybody from Kent
a week ago today.
I'm in touch with all the parents at the school, and Kent may claim that they perhaps
hope and intend to find placements for 10 people.
Do they have those placements active, in motion?
Do we have offers for 10 Kent pupils on the table today?
No, we do not.
Does that answer your question?
Thank you very much, Mr O 'Dowd, for that very candid answer.
So we're going to move to the other part of this now.
Our cabinet member, Councillor Stock, would like to say something.
Thank you very much, Chair.
I just wanted to – it's been – I'm very grateful that you've come and been able to
share your views and the committee have had the opportunity to listen to everything that
you've been able to share with us about where the school is at now, where it's been, where
we hope that it can get to in the future. So thank you very much for that. The committee
is here to listen, as am I, as are our officers, and I hope we can continue to work together
in the future. Just from my perspective, while you are here, I just want to really thank
Thank you for welcoming me,
and I know other members of the committee
have been to the school as well.
Visiting during school time was a real privilege.
It was great to see the dedication
of your school leadership team,
the dedication of your staff.
Really great to see pupils engaging with their learning.
I particularly enjoyed seeing some of the rebound therapy
in the gym, and I know that's very popular with pupils.
And also the opportunity to hear directly from parents
about their poignant experiences. I do hear that and I do understand what you've shared
then and what you've shared tonight and what's coming out, I'm sure, through the consultation
in terms of the impact and the provision of young people. We understand that and that'll
be taken into account. Also really grateful to come down Saturday at the weekend as well
to your community day and really see a celebration of Branstow in that wider community and
in Broadstairs in Kent.
So thank you very much for putting that on
and that I was able to join.
As I said, I think I understand what's
being said about the impact that the school has.
However, I think everybody around the table
is acknowledging the kind of financial impact
and that that can't be wished away,
that the school does carry currently a £1 .2 million
deficit.
And that's driven by financial challenges
generally within this sector, but also very frustratingly,
the unwillingness of some councils to pay for the support needed for the pupils at school.
And we're committed to supporting children with special educational needs in Wandsworth.
It's absolutely imperative that we meet their needs.
And it's very frustrating that other councils, particularly I think the Kent County Council
has not taken that view.
And I know parents who I've spoken to directly some on Saturday are equally frustrated with
that and in fact are coming to us to say how can we support the school and the council
in recovering that debt.
Just in terms of a catamization, I suppose I think I am optimistic about that prospect
that we can pursue that to secure the school's future and I think it's clear from what's
been shared and from what I understand that the council is committed to supporting that.
But I guess I'm pragmatic also about the financial challenges that the schools face.
And as I just said, that can't be wished away.
I think we should all be conscious of the fact that discussions were had with the council,
with Kent County Council for over three years, and they unfortunately declined to accept
the transfer.
And I understand from the document that you've provided, an academy who have experience of
running five special schools were also interested in the transfer, but they've stepped away
recently. So I think it's really important that we progress this
academization conversation at pace. I am slightly concerned to hear
that there are other academies possibly waiting in the wings.
That wasn't something that I personally was aware of. I don't know if that's
something that Wandsworth Council has been aware of. It's absolutely
transparent. If we're going to work in partnership to secure the future of the
school, it's absolutely paramount that there must be transparent
conversations to ensure that this can progress. So I would just hopefully if
this is a dialogue and it's a two -way conversation then I hope that's that
heard and things can and progress to make sure that this is a transparent and
open conversation about how the school can progress. Thank you very much
Councillor Stock, our cabinet member for children. So we're now going to move
to the other part of this.
So we're going to then ask officers questions on Bradstow.
So I think we may, are there officers that need
to come to the table and join us?
Is everybody?
Okay, thank you very much.
So this is going to be questions to officers.
And I can see lots of hands up very, very quickly.
so I can see Ms. Harin down there and then Councillor Corner.
So who are you addressing your question to, Ms. Harin?
I don't know, it's about the finance.
Mr. Halleck.
Yes, so actually the questions I raised before
about when they budgeted is relating to this.
So my question is why did the Wandsworth Council
make their decisions when they cap?
And the second question is did you realize
you would lose out financially by putting the cap?
So yeah.
So just the fees of the school are driven
by the cost of the school.
The basic premise is that the costs have to be fully recovered.
So if costs go up, we have to put up our fees pretty much, unless there's a recovery plan
and that is all planned out, et cetera, et cetera.
But in the end of the day, the school's sustainability relies on recovering its costs and having
a surplus.
The cap, probably not necessary for me, but it is the result of the offset journey that's
been explained at 62 places.
It was nearly 300 staff, 24, 7, 52 weeks a year,
obviously not all at the same time,
but a large provision, $16 million,
working towards $16 million of cost with $15 million,
$15 million of cost, $16 million of revenue.
Obviously, prior to the reduction through that process,
This – it was agreed with Ofsted to reduce the provision to make it more manageable,
and I don't think I've been approached by anyone that says that was not the right
decision when it came to not the finances, obviously, but managing it and making it future -proof,
sustainable into the future in terms of management of the provision.
That did leave a financial position where we had quite a lot of costs set up for 52
week and coming down to just having 38 and pretty much half the children.
However, nearly 3 million of the costs, I stand to be correct on exact zeros, was agency
and nearly all of that has been removed from the school plus obviously other staff have
left in that time, bringing the cost down from nearly 15 million to 10 million at the
time when we were doing the budgeting work that was explained.
We've worked with the school on setting the fees, obviously on the premise that we do
have to recover costs.
Those have varied from the beginning of the year to now, obviously, but where we are at
the moment is we have very few agency.
I think there's 13 or so based on the school's latest submission, and that has pulled out
a lot of costs.
I'll let Lisa continue.
Yeah, I think, and again, just to make it clear, the decision on the 52 -week, you know,
It's a children's home.
It's the responsibility of the DCS to make that decision because she's ultimately responsible for safeguarding of children in a children's home.
And further to the inspection where they raised significant safeguarding concerns.
That decision was some decision that was taken by the council to safeguard children.
And at the time was the right decision to make.
again that was taken in discussion with Ofsted because we wanted to protect
school and we want to safeguard children and make sure then that school have the
capacity to make the improvements that were needed and clearly from what we've
heard that happened so the improvements were made and obviously the homes then
were judged as good in their November visit so that was the reason that
decision was taken to close the 52 -week homes to protect children and safeguard.
Thank you. Councillor Cornish next I think.
Thank you chair. This is a question probably to Mr. Halleck.
Around this table at many meetings we've often discussed the nature of the children's care sector
and how private provision can be exceptionally expensive. Obviously Bradstow is not a children's
care home in that traditional sense.
I just want to make that clear.
But it does provide similar support,
it's like an adjacent sector, if you like,
to the children's care sector, looking after some very
vulnerable children.
And if the school was to close, many
of those children, because of a shortage of places nationally,
might have to be provided for in a private setting, which
is typically more expensive.
and my concern is that risking the closure of Bradstow School, which is what
this consultation process is doing, would actually be a false economy for
Wandsworth Council, the other councils that place children there and the SEND
education sector as a whole. It seems to me that Bradstow is a very, very special
and rare form of state provision for these children that provides in the long
run a cost -effective way of councils placing and providing education for
children like this. Indeed one council leader from another council actually
said to me they'd give their right arm to have provision like Bradstow School
and be able to place their special needs children a place like Bradstow. So could
If the officers offer their reflection on that,
do they think that providing the equivalent care
for children at Bradstow in the event of a school closing
would be of a higher cost or not?
The theory does go that the independent providers
would be more expensive.
I think over the years, Bradstow became less and less
competitive on a benchmarking scale.
However, we have only got four children there at the moment of our own.
When looking at alternatives, those have not been dissimilar and some have been lower.
I cannot talk for other councils, but Kent have not expressed that they, obviously we
went from 62 children down to 30 very quickly during the summer of last year.
Those children, I do not know necessarily where they all went, but Kent haven't shown
and any interest in taking on the school for financial reasons, which I don't know, I might
allude to the fact that it's not necessarily the case that those children are going to
cost a lot more elsewhere.
But it's hard for me to comment precisely, but the theory is that they are.
Benchmarking does show a varied picture, but it can be competitive at about 250.
Thank you, Mr. Halleck.
Councillor Paul, I think, is next.
Just following on what you just mentioned about the four Children at
Bradstone, can you confirm or clarify whether these Children are looked after
Children from ones of Council or who we have corporate responsibility for?
Thank you. Um, we have had looked off Children previously placed at Bradstone,
but the current four Children we have placed there are not looked after, and
therefore there are no corporate parenting responsibility for
Wandsworth Council for those four Children.
Thank you for clarifying that.
Councillor Davies and then Councillor Apps.
So we've heard this committee before, some of the measures and indeed at the last council
meeting, something about what officers have been doing to support the leadership of Radstone
and exploring options to try and find a way
towards some kind of more sustainable position.
But could you just go over that, please, about the involvement?
Thank you.
So that's the support we've provided post -proposal, right?
I think we offer extensive support to Brasdow.
There's not a school maintained by Wandsworth
that we provide any sort of level to this extent.
And we just continue with that, monthly meetings,
monthly recovery, all that sort of thing.
Extensive support doesn't abdicate responsibility
or productivity, I will say.
We have, though, in the last post -proposal,
worked on the restructure, Garrett's team, the finance
teams in particular, the HR teams,
working closely with the school has been mentioned.
and then possibly post that, what is possible,
and some of that has gone into the proposal.
From the education point of view, I'll post over to Lisa,
but yeah, we've ramped it up definitely.
Yeah, I mean in terms of our support,
and this is an offer that we've made to the school
for the last couple of years actually,
was to work with them on the structure
to ensure that it was delivered to the schools
delivering as per the children's EHCPs as opposed to just going down the lines of the
support that they felt the children needed because obviously in terms of local authorities
paying for a provision, it's got to be outlined in the child's plan because that's what local
authorities will pay for.
So I'm really pleased to say that recently our head of Centered Inclusion actually went
to the school and worked with the leadership team along with the Academy Trust that they're
engaging with to really look at that staffing structure to make sure that it
aligned with provision in children's plans and really looked at what was
needed for those children because that as I said that's the only way you will
get local authorities to fund because obviously they have a duty then if it's
written in a child's plan that that has to be provided and therefore local
authorities have to fund it so we've provided that and also more widely you
We do have a link advisor to the school who still engages with the school to ensure quality
of education.
And also, we do have a commitment to the staff at Bradstow.
Our principal education psychologist has been in contact with the school to look at a plan
around how staff are supported through this process in terms of well -being.
So I think there has been considerable support, and we will continue to provide that support.
Obviously it has to be guided by the school themselves, so they have to engage with us
in those conversations.
But I do believe that we have worked well with the school in terms of providing any
support that we can.
We've engaged with, as I've said, the academy trusts.
In fact, we've engaged with two, another, well three actually, another independent provider.
And interesting, that conversation, and we talk about benchmarking, they're an independent
provider that provides provision for for children and they they again felt that
the the costings were very similar to the types of costings they would
provide an independent setting so in terms of that benchmarking you know
asking whether independent sector would be much much higher that wasn't the
conversation that we recently had with a provider in the independent sector
Councillor Abbs.
Thank you very much.
On our visit to the school in Kent, we particularly, it was really good to hear from the parents
and particularly Wandsworth parents who were there and I'm conscious that there are four
families who have got a child in Bradstow.
And that, you know, obviously as a Wandsworth Councillor, as we all are here, we're all
Wandsworth councillors, we have a particular responsibility to children in Wandsworth.
So I'm very keen to find out more about demand for places from Wandsworth places to Bradstow.
How many requests have been received recently and how many have gone to appeal because the
council has refused to offer a place to them?
Thank you.
So the last request that we had for a placement at Bradstow
was March 24.
But that was at the same time there
were issues around the residential provisions.
So because of that reason, we did not
proceed with that placement.
We've had another assessment, I think, the last academic year,
which we didn't agree a change of placement
because the needs for that child could
be met in their current provision
with some additional support.
So that has been retained.
I think our last starter from Wandsworth was placed in 2023.
And in the last four years, I mean, I've been in Wandsworth now for just under five years.
In my time and the head of Centered Inclusion who's been here for four years,
there's not been a single appeal for Bradstow School.
Yes. And do you share information about Bradstow with parents looking at this type of provision?
Absolutely. So obviously the provision is outlined in our local offer. It's in our
admissions brochure as well so parents have access to that information. Our
coordinators in our SEND team again will have that conversation with parents. Any
consultation with a special school is based on parental preference and if
they ask for us to consult with the provision we are duty bound to do that.
So there's no way that we could, you know, if a parent actually wanted that provision, we would have to consult with them.
And I've explained to you that the position that we're in, in terms of the number of requests that we have received in terms of placements of Bradstow.
Councillor Paul, I think you wanted to come in.
Thank you. Just around restructuring costs, on the current restructuring proposal, what are the redundancy costs that the council would bear?
Sorry, there are multiple permutations but the likely outcomes somewhere between 300
and 400 ,000 pounds.
Councillor Corner.
Thank you, Chair.
We seem to have a narrative emerging that seems to reinforce the misleading idea that
there is not any demand for Bradstow.
It's simply false given all the evidence that members of the committee have received from
the school, from the visit to the school, and also from just general knowledge of the
sector that we all know about and the testimonies we hear about how hard it is to place children
at send schools.
I know that the school, for example, have been contacted by a Wandsworth parent just
this week for a placement at Bradstow.
And in the last five academic year,
they assessed five children from Wandsworth for a placement
at Bradstow School.
So there is demand for Bradstow School.
It's not the case that the school
is struggling for children.
The phone is ringing off the hook
for children and their parents and families
who are seeking to place children at Bradstow.
It is completely wrong for us to be
seeking to close the school on the false premise that there is no demand for it.
Quite the contrary, it's one of the most in -demand schools that we have as a
council and it is outrageous that we are seeking to close it on that misleading
basis. You're making some quite inflammatory remarks there. Have you
got a question for officers and at least they can have a chance to answer it and
I don't know where your information is coming from. This is what the school
community have told me and I've okay so I just want the committee to be aware of
that
okay I do have a question can officers confirm or deny that one's worth parents
contacted Bradstow about a placement there perhaps they didn't know about it
but I just be interested in that because it's clearly not the case that parents
and families from Wandsworth do not have demand for Bradstone.
Ms Van Rowley, would you like to respond?
Yeah, I mean there is a statutory process that has to go through in terms of placement
in a SEND provision when a child has an EHCP, you have to go through the SEND team.
There is a legal process in terms of consultation.
So I am getting my information from the head of SEND and Inclusion in Wandsworth who will
engage with all of the families that require a transition or requesting a change of placement.
So to suggest that the information I'm providing which comes directly from the send team is inaccurate
I can only comment on a legal process in terms of consultation that has to happen in terms of placing a child with a plan
Thank you very much a counselor Lee you had a question I think was it on this
It wasn't honest it was to it was to go back to the children who are currently placed
it. So my question was I wanted an update on the four Wandsworth pupils and I wanted
an update on how the placement planning is going for a potential new placement if the
school does close. I understand that one of the pupils is leaving the school already anyway
this summer but for the other three pupils and then I also wanted to ask
about the 13 Kent pupils. What is our duty of care as Wandsworth Council for
for those pupils and is there a duty of care under the code of
or legislation that we have to uphold?
And also will we be able to sort of provide any support
in their placement planning?
Thank you.
And obviously, you know, we've heard
from a parent governor this evening,
and it does sadden me that other local authorities
aren't engaging with their families
in the way that we have in Wandsworth,
because that is not our approach to managing change,
transition. So in terms of our four children, as you said, one of those young
people will naturally transition from Bradstow at the end of this academic
year and we are awaiting the outcome of an assessment on parental preference for
that young person and we already have secured the actual living placement in
that area for that child. So that's the first thing. In terms of the others, we
have engaged quite considerably with with the parents. We have offers for all
three children. In terms of parental preference again we are awaiting some
assessment outcomes and also where parents have changed their preference
we've also booked visits for them to schools of their choice. So as I said I'm
confident in terms of our ability to place these children. Everything is
guided by parental preference.
It's not for us as a local authority
to determine where a child goes.
That's parents' choice.
And we will work with families through this process
if we need to.
In terms of other local authorities' children,
obviously through the SEND code of practice,
the statutory duty is on the resident local authority
to place children.
We have contacted all of those DCSs.
We've reached out to their head of SEND and inclusion.
We've encouraged them to parallel plan because it is right and proper that people have those conversations with families.
We can't force them to do that. We can only encourage.
And as I said, I would hope that other local authorities would act in the same way that we would in terms of thinking about next steps for children.
Thank you very much.
If there are no further questions, Councillor Corner.
Is it you next?
I'm so sorry.
It's Councillor Osborne and then Councillor Corner.
I've been asked to ask people to move closer to the microphone because apparently it's
picking it up on the live stream?
Yes, so clearly not a great demand for places at Bradstow, if any, at the moment.
From Wandsworth, as was made clear.
So, well, I'm afraid there seems to be a question mark over the accuracy of some of the things
that are being said by the minority party tonight.
But let me go, and indeed, let me go back to one of the points made earlier on correctly
by Councillor Corner when he said that the GMB at the school had called on Wandsworth
to keep the school open.
It's a nuanced position from the GMB.
First of all, I would be surprised, disappointed,
I think if the GMB hadn't said that, it's their duty to say something of that type.
But look at what they're actually saying.
They're not calling on Kent, which is where the school is, to support the school.
Not calling on Kent, which is providing considerably more students there than we
are to support and save the school.
They're calling on what they refer to as the Labour -run
council of Wandsworth.
They're making a distinction between Wandsworth
and the Conservative -run Kent County Council.
But the nuance goes on, because they call for Wandsworth
Council to take direct control of the school, which
is an unusual and probably impractical suggestion.
But they have to call for direct control, for us to take direct control.
Because if you go back to the point of my question earlier on about the position of the GMB and
their confidence in the process that's being proposed by the current leadership of the school.
They voted by 80 odd percent to call on the current head teacher to do the decent thing and stand down.
That's why they say that we as a council would have to take direct control because there wouldn't be a head teacher there, presumably.
So there is significant nuance to what the staff are saying as represented by the GMP.
And we have to look at the threats and dangers that we're dealing with here in this school.
We need to see a proposal which has the full support of the staff at the school.
And clearly, it doesn't have because the GMB have taken a very clear position and
questioned what is being done.
And similarly, I'm forced to ask if we go further on this,
why is it that the GMB are rejecting the position,
any suggestion of going to Kent County Council?
And we've heard from the officers tonight that we're not getting any leeway at all on this from Kent County Council.
on any possibility of any kind of funding or
support for what's going on at the school.
And my question, I think, at the end of this, my question to the staff is,
can you update us on the legal action that we might be taking to recover the outstanding debt from county council on this school?
Because these threats, these problems are at the heart of the decision that we're going to have to take at some stage in this consultation process.
We can't base what we're doing on inaccurate information about what's going on.
We can't base our decision on assertions which don't seem to have any kind of basis in the reality of what's going on.
We've got to take realistic decisions based on what we are faced with at the moment.
So obviously it's a big decision for any council to take another council to court.
And in good faith we delayed following through on our initial legal action over a year ago.
Because of how this has played out, we have now re -initiated that.
and the letter's gone out last week,
and that'll follow through.
We're waiting for Ken's response, obviously.
Well, thank you, Mr. Halleck, for that response
and all the responses.
I've just looked at the time.
We have three hours for these meetings,
and we haven't even started on the other papers yet,
and we're an hour and a half in,
And so this incredibly important issue, and I've let it go on because I know how important
it is for this long, but I really think that we should start bringing this to a close.
I think, Councillor Corning, you had an amendment or a suggestion?
I have an amendment, although my strong preference would be that the questions that are yet to
asked are able to be asked because as you rightly say this is a vitally
important issue and we need to consider it in full detail. Would you prefer the
questions to be asked and not to go on to the amendment? We really are up
against it on time now. Would you prefer not to bring your amendment? I'm going to
bring my amendment no matter what happens but I would prefer the question to be heard. Could you go
ahead and do that then bring your amendment? I think you've shared it with
everybody's had sight of it.
Can I check?
Yes.
It was shared before the meeting.
Obviously this paper's for information.
It's not actually for decisions.
So we wouldn't be voting on it at this point.
We did that at the previous overview
and scrutiny committee.
And that paper has gone to the executive and gone forward.
So it's for information.
but um Councillor Corner has shared this so I will ask for a vote on that
amendment if you will have sight of it do you want to go through it look I'd
like to address colleagues on the committee Councillors and co -opted
members this is a really difficult position as was actually mentioned at
the council meeting last week this isn't a discussion that should take place
along party lines or through politics or anything like that. This is a decision that needs to
be carefully considered and taken in the best traditions of Wandsworth Council, which is
a caring council that cares for the children in its care and takes pride in its schools.
It could be argued that the decision to trigger the consultation by the executive of the council
actually incentivized and forced academies to come to the table and consider academizing
That is an argument for the consultation.
I'm just saying that because it's not a totally one -sided debate here.
There are pros and cons on both sides.
But it's also clear to me that the consultation has triggered resignations at the school because
staff are uncertain and they obviously have their own careers and lives to look after
and their own families to look after and weaken the school community.
and that is a tragedy for the families and children who have children placed there.
Councillor Osborne mentioned the GMB article and the statement.
I believe they made that statement on the 28th of January.
We received, members of this committee, received a report on the 7th of February,
a very detailed report which I really thank the Bradstowe community for
coming up with, which sets out in detail how they propose to go forward.
and it's accompanied by a letter from an Academy Trust CEO,
which asks this committee to recommend
that the council ceases the consultation process
so that the academization process can take place.
That this is now a way forward.
We can work together to support the academization
if this valued state school that looks after
some of the most vulnerable children in our society,
rather than continuing with this ill thought through
and unproductive consultation process,
which is essentially akin to hanging the sword
of Damocles over the school and threatening it with closure
when there is a perfectly sustainable route ahead for them.
There are three other academies in reserve,
as we've heard tonight, which means that there is
a significant likelihood that the school can move
to academy status soon, but not necessarily
within the tight constraints of the consultation process.
We need to reflect on why we're in education,
why we choose to sit on this committee
and serve children by being members of this committee.
The threat of closure to Bradstow is a living nightmare
for parents and families at this school.
It's caused significant distress to children,
as we've read in testimonies from the children.
It is something that threatens the lives and the family life of all of the members of the Bradstowe community, including the staff there.
We can save Bradstowe School, we just need to vote to pause this consultation and work together as a council,
as academy chains, and as the Bradstowe community to form a sustainable way forward.
And I have every faith that the consultation response represents
a way forward that can achieve those the aims that we all desire.
The amendment to the paper that I've proposed is simply asking for
what the Bradstow community have asked for in their consultation response.
That is to extend the timeline of the statutory school closure consultation
process until at least the end of 2025 which isn't a long time still be a time limited
process so it still protect the long term financial interests of Wandsworth Council.
Second to end the statutory school closure consultation process as soon as possible in
the event that the DFE agree to the academisation proposal. And finally brief all Wandsworth
councillors on the nature of the school and the process to date to make sure that all
of our colleagues, not just the 10 Councillors who sit on this committee, are fully understanding
of this important and for some people life -changing decision that this Council is about to take.
So I really do commend this amendment to the committee and I really hope that everyone
can support it today.
Thank you, Councillor Corner.
Councillor, Councillor Stockard, cabinet member, would like to respond before we go to a vote.
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you, Councillor Corner, for your proposal.
I understand where it's coming from in terms of supporting the school community.
So I'll just kind of deal with each in term, and I have a kind of alternative proposal
and commitment that I can give to the committee that perhaps can be taken into consideration
if members feel that that reassures them as to the Council's way forward.
So in relation to kind of extending the statutory school closure consultation until the end
of 2025, in my view that's a premature decision to take.
You know the executive decided last year to commence and just an informal consultation
And that consultation closes this Sunday. You know as members of the committee are aware
Closure consultations come in two parts. They come with an informal part
followed by a pause and a reflection and then a formal
Consultation if that's deemed appropriate so that consultation is still outstanding
We still have the opportunity as a council to review those responses and consider next
steps and we will do that.
What we know now following the consultation is that an academy is interested.
I understood coming into this meeting that it was one academy.
I'm now interested to hear that it is more.
And we're committed to supporting the school to explore that.
And I think that came out both from the school deputation and also from officers.
But the financial viability of the school does remain.
There is a considerable deficit of 1 .2 million that is driven by some Council's
refusals to pay and it's unclear at the moment what commitment we or the school
have in terms of payment of different fees as outlined within the document.
Where we are at the moment is four children from Wandsworth
currently attend the school, 13 children from Kent. They're not willing to
accept a transfer and the position still remains that their risks and liability
to this council are significant and disproportionate.
And it sounds to me, Councillor Cornyn, that that is something that is shared across both
sides and both political parties, that there are considerable risks for ones with council
for a lengthy delay.
So that's why I think at this stage it's inappropriate and premature to make that decision.
In relation to looking at ending the statutory closure process in the event that Bradstow's
all academisation proposals agreed by DFE.
We're not there yet.
A due diligence has to take place.
An application has to go to the DFE.
And they will do their own due diligence, I understand,
in exploring whether an academy order,
they will make an academy order.
As I said earlier, I'm optimistic about the prospects.
But I am pragmatic because there have
been a number of conversations that
haven't been able to go forward.
So it is important that we maintain pace.
it is important that conversations are transparent and we also need to maintain pace because
we need to ensure that if an academy is to take over the school in September term that
they also want healthy pupil numbers, right?
Because a special school is just the same as any other school as a member of the committees
are aware, they need pupil numbers.
So we do need this process to move at pace so that the school and the academy can get
that reassurance.
And then in relation to an all -counselor briefing in relation to to Bradscow School in Kent,
I don't think that's appropriate at this stage.
You know, no, I think that your council motion, Councilor Calder, that unfortunately you weren't
present at full council to speak to, you know, refer to the fact that you want an all -counselor
briefing because of our corporate parenting duty.
I think Ms. Brenner only was clear earlier that we have now looked after children currently
at Bradstow, so I'm not clear that that's the basis for asking this.
Myself and Ms. Bovavicius, Director of Children's Services, we're available for private briefings
with you as opposition member.
You haven't sought those briefings since this proposal came about, and that's something
that you're able to take.
I will continue to brief my group.
You are entitled to continue to brief your read.
The right place for this discussion is Children's Committee.
Other members of the council are able to come and listen or watch online this committee.
I know some members of the council do.
We also have other democratic councils, other democratic functions across the council such
as full council meeting.
You know, no oral questions were asked in relation to Brasdoe School in Kent at the
December full council.
You know, there was a question that was asked at the full council meeting last week, but
Unfortunately, you weren't there to ask it when the time came for it to become.
And again, you put a motion on the agenda, but you weren't there to debate it.
And I asked for the council meeting to be adjourned so you could come back so we could debate this issue.
So all members of the council could be updated.
And I was able to update in relation to questions that were asked for those members that were there.
But you unfortunately, and I'm sorry to say, weren't there.
And I do think at this stage, you know, it is disproportionate to provide that briefing
when no decision has been made and looking at the number of children in Wandsworth.
I will keep the position under review.
I have committed at the previous meeting to provide a briefing to all members of Children's
Committee between the informal consultation and if and when we get to a formal consultation,
you know, I stand by that commitment and I will continue to update Children's Committee
members as I think we have been very good at doing if I can say as a committee and I
was really pleased that we were able with the support of the chair to support all members
of the committee going along to the school.
Not every committee necessarily would have done that from what I understand.
So let's try and work together and I can continue to make that commitment.
In terms of an alternative way forward, I think we are clear that we want to support
the school with pursuing an academization option.
You know, it is something for them to move forward with.
They are in engagement with the Academy Trust,
and Academy Trusts are going to have to undertake
their due diligence, and we do understand
that time might be needed for that,
and we will take that into account when moving
to any further stage in the consultation.
So I'm happy from my perspective as cabinet member
for children that this committee kind of notes
the executive decision that was taken
on the 9th of December last year, delegating authority to the Executive Director for Children's
Services in consultation with myself to decide whether to publish the statutory proposals
for closure. That's that second stage of the process, as I explained earlier. And we
will not exercise that delegated authority before the 16th of March, which is the date,
as I understand, that Cygnus have provided in terms of the time when they will finish
their due diligence. This will allow any Academy trust and I want there to be
transparency there. Any Academy trust interested in
academization to complete their due diligence to submit proposals to the
council. So that's the step what we can take now and I can give that commitment
and that can be noted in the minutes. I also think just again on the point of
transparency I think it's important that committee members and the public
understand, you know, if the school is going to look to
a cadaver, what a realistic timetable looks like,
and that's transparent, that's public,
and people can understand that,
and we can try and move at pace.
So as I understand it, you know,
there has been engagement with stakeholders
around an academization timetable,
so I would also ask for it to be noted,
and Happy Fruit Room noted in the minutes,
that in the event that a viable proposal
is presented to the Council.
I would invite the Committee to note that there is an academization timetable that would
enable academization by the end of this academic year based on the discussions to date with
stakeholders.
So as I understand, that would firstly be academization due diligence for six weeks,
starting, it's already started, 3rd of February, finishing on the 16th of March, and then a
week for due diligence to take place, sorry, a week for a review of the due diligence and
a commitment then coming forward from any academy to take on the provision.
You know, consideration for that can take place between 17th of March and the 23rd of
March and then for an academy to send an application to the DfE by the latest of the 11th of April
of this year with a target date for school academization and conversion by the 31st of
So that's a kind of a transparent position that at last the committee consider as an
alternative that can be noted and taken forward.
Thank you very much, Councillor Stock.
Do you still wish to vote on these recommendations?
Obviously there's been some movement.
I'd still like the amendment to be put to a vote for the reasons that I set out.
Also just I'll keep this brief but to the point around the council meeting.
The reason the council meeting panned out like it did last week was because the motion on
Bradstow school was placed at number 13 on the agenda for the meeting which meant it would never
have been debated in a month of Sunday. We voted, we brought forward a motion to bring it forward
up the agenda and you voted it down to silence debate on Bradstoke.
Councillor Stock, can you respond on that because we can't have that but then we have
to draw this to a close. You can read the media coverage on it.
Sorry that's not expected. I think it's quite clear for the amount of time we spent on it
tonight and that it was top of the agenda that clearly we do understand the impacts
of this and it's not about political points of knowing.
It was a political stunt, regrettably, by yourself.
And it's just not acceptable because these are young
children, really vulnerable children,
that we do care about and we need to prioritize them.
And it's not fair to undertake cheap political stunts
like that, I'm sorry.
So if we could take a vote.
All right, if we could.
I will start with these new recommendations in paragraph one amendments from Councillor
corner, all those who are for those amendments, for all those for 1234.
And then anyone abstaining? Would anyone like to abstain? 123 abstentions.
And all those against?
One, two, three, four, five, six.
So the amendment falls.
Thank you, everyone, for attending this evening.
And I'm sorry that we are so late in, but it was very, very important that those discussions
were had, even if they weren't what everybody wanted to hear.

4 Wandsworth Maintained Pupil Referral Units (Paper No. 25-64)

I have a safe journey back.
We're just going to take a couple of minutes to rearrange where everyone is.

5 Schools' Finance Budget Allocations 2025/26 (Paper No. 25-65)

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.
Good evening, everybody, and also to those watching online.
We are now resuming the meeting.
We are restarting the meeting just to let everybody know.
And we are going to our next paper.
It's paper four and it's on Wandsworth's maintained pupil referral units.

4 Wandsworth Maintained Pupil Referral Units (Paper No. 25-64)

I am so sorry and I apologize to Ms. Tara Bell and Ms. Jackie Addison,
the head teachers, for having to wait so long.
I hope as fellow teachers you would understand it was really really important that we gave that the time
That it needed for bread. So when these these things come up where?
schools have to be closed
So welcome and
Our people referral units are
Outstanding here in Wandsworth. We've had visits
I know I've been to Victoria Drive and then just recently we had the pleasure of going
to Francis Barber and being shown around and the work is truly, truly impressive.
And the collaboration with students, families, stakeholders to develop the very personalized
learning plans that the children have which are both academic but they also address their
emotional needs which is so important, holistic, this holistic approach.
and you can really see the good outcomes
that you get from that,
and that the pupils have a successful transition
to further education, training, or employment,
or indeed back into mainstream education.
And it really is a tribute to all our teachers
who I know go above and beyond
very, very often for our pupils.
So I'm going to hand over to Mr. Hoff
To introduce our paper and then we'd be able to hear from our head teachers. Thank you
Thank you chair and anyone who's been on this committee for any period of time will know that I take every opportunity at these meetings
To mention the the work of the proves because I think they are so important to the work of our
of our
Education Department, and therefore really pleased
to be able to prevent, prevent, present a paper
on our three pupil referral units.
It is a paper, but it could easily have been
three separate papers because they are complex
organizations that fulfill a number of roles.
But I hope at least this paper gives something
of an overview of their work.
I'm delighted that two of our head teachers
could join us today, Jackie Addison from Francis Barber
and Tara Bell from the Hospital Home Tuition Service,
and I know they'll be happy to answer any questions.
Unfortunately, Eileen Shannon,
who's the head of Victoria Drive,
has had to give apologies,
but she did, however, ask me to say the following
on her behalf.
Victoria Drive valued the visit from five councils
on the 28th of November.
Thank you for taking the time to learn
about how we support children.
Most importantly, a huge thank you for liaising
with Lady Anne and Adventure Playground on our behalf.
Following your support,
we've now secured a Thursday afternoon session.
You truly made a difference.
I know that all of our proves welcome visits,
And I encourage you, if you haven't already visited, please do so.
In the meantime, as I said, I hope this paper gives some insight into each of the three
organizations.
And we're fortunate also to have two members of the management board on the committee as
well.
So I'll pass over first the chair to say a few words if they so wish.
Thank you.
Mr. Osborne.
Yeah.
I confess, I come to the post of chair of the pupil referral unit,
somebody who'd never had any experience at all of such organizations,
and for that matter, not much experience of the education system.
I'd never been a governor or anything of that kind.
I'd attended a few committees like this one, but not very many.
And I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but
I've spent time with the head teachers and the teachers and
other staff at the schools and indeed with some of the pupils at the schools.
And what I say to people is I fear that a lot of people don't always quite get and
understand how the pupils come to be there.
And sometimes they're a bit dismissive about how they come to be there.
And I am duty bound to explain that we have children,
sometimes children who couldn't find a slot anywhere else because they were refugees, for example.
Often children who've been badly damaged, either by their experiences or by a physical accident.
We run a kind of school in St. George's Hospital, for example, as a part of the HHTS set up.
And a more extensive element of that in Springfield Hospital.
But there are a number of children and
pupils who have suffered trauma and
abuse beyond anything that most of us could imagine.
And the schools carry them forward,
give them a reason to study, and
have an astonishing record of getting them back into mainstream schools, first of all,
and secondly, getting them through a good set of exams and onto fulfilling lives later
on.
It is an astonishing achievement and our PRUs are absolutely cutting edge and ahead of the
compared with all the others in the system.
And I am proud to be chair of the PRUs.
Thank you.
Thank you for that very impassioned introduction to Councillor Osborne here.
So have we got questions? Yes, Councillor Corner and then Councillor Crivelli.
Councillor Davies.
Thank you, Chair. I'd like to, unlike with the last item,
I'm entirely associating myself with the comments of Councillor Osborn.
I think the proves are a really fantastic good news story in Wandsworth, something we should be very proud of.
We need to give them all the support they need to do.
I did have a little bit of experience in the education system before I came to the council or to be a counselor.
And I taught in a school where some children were sadly excluded and
went to the local pupil referral unit,
not the ones who have won, but one down in Medway in Kent.
And I bumped into that child a few months
after they were sadly excluded from the school
and had a chat to him about how the PRU provision was helping
him, and he was having an excellent time.
For the first time in his life, he was on track at school,
studying for GCSEs, able to engage in education,
able to learn from his mistakes and build himself back up.
I was really pleased to hear that and it's certainly a memory that sticks with me.
And I have seen myself how the Prewes in Wandsworth have a similar impact.
It's really very, very inspiring and all councilors should try to visit them to just learn about
the great work they do.
I do have one question for Mr. Hoff, which is that one of the important things that I
the PRUs do is prepare children for life after school.
And I wondered if the officers, or Mr. Hoff,
could talk now to how the PRUs kind of support children
and what those children go on to do
after they attend the PRUs.
And maybe I would encourage thinking
about how we can make that even better.
I know it's great to see the children
and studying for kind of recognized qualifications,
but I think it's important that we help them
into employment and further education wherever possible.
Yeah, I think destinations is an absolutely key issue
for all the proofs.
I would, the first thing I would say
before I'm gonna pass on to my colleagues
is that, and I'll speak on behalf of Eileen,
is that obviously we have a primary,
people refer in it, and outcomes for them
are just as important as those at secondary.
Almost without exception, the children
that the primary PRU are dual registered,
almost without exception, they will go back
to their mainstream schools, and in some small amount
of cases, they'll be supported into specialist provision
with specialist support.
So that's the first thing, is that in terms of reintegration
our primary PRU is absolutely key.
I think, since we have the head teachers here,
I think it would be remiss of me not to pass over,
let them talk a little bit about the work.
Yeah, Frances Barber. We have around 86 percent of our youngsters who leave us in year 11
go on to education. The majority of them will go into education in terms of further education
colleges like South Thames, Kingston, Richmond. And then we have, last year we had about six
children who didn't go into any education employment, and they get, we refer them to
Wandsworth's Lifelong Learning Service, so there's support there for them. We also, if
they have a social worker, which many of our youngsters do, we garner their support to
get them into some next steps of education. But we had some success last year. We had
two students who went into apprenticeships, which are quite rare at the age of 16, and
And then we had a few students who managed to get into, about three students who got
into work placements.
And they're often through family members, that type of thing.
So we're very, very successful in terms of getting children into next steps of education
and employment.
That is a high level for alternative provisions.
I think Councillor Crivelli was next, actually.
And then I've got councillor Davies councillor Paul, and then I'll take councillor Owens
So sorry yes, I do apologize sorry
Yeah, just
Our reintegration rate into schools is about 93 percent on average, so it's really high
We're lucky in that we've got a stronger love -discipline
treatment around children who are being discharged
from hospital as well.
But yes, it's actually quite good, I think,
in respect of improving it.
It's less about what the Prewes are doing
and more about the environment that the children are
transitioning into.
So what's happening out there in schools and colleges
to incentivize effective inclusion practices.
But essentially, I think the proof is, essentially we do quite a lovely job with them as I think
a lot of our feedback from professionals and parents and students testifies to that.
Thank you very much.
I think, am I being told that to speak closer to the microphone when we come to the questions?
I know that's really hard.
You can pick it up and move it and put it sort of near to you.
Councillor Crivelli, was there?
Can I just say that Wandsworth does have a low rate of exclusions and suspensions from
schools and I just think it's fair to say that you've played a very important role in
achieving that so I think it's fair that we recognise the very dynamic role that you've
played in that overall.
I just wanted to, perhaps you can assist people who are not familiar with the role of PRU on
this committee.
we all understand that exclusion from school is actually quite rare.
Could you give us perhaps one or two examples of maybe people who have been excluded from school,
what they've been excluded from, and how you've then set about trying to resolve that by reintegrating them to mainstream schooling?
Yeah, first of all I'd say that whilst some children are permanently excluded from school,
Some children come out of school because their manage moved out.
Some children, the parents take them out of school before that happens.
Sometimes we have children who move into the area in year 11 who can't get to school places.
So there's lots and lots of different reasons why children come to us.
Sometimes they've been taken out earlier in the years, possibly for home education,
and the parents have realized that that's not the route they want to continue in.
So there's a whole raft of other reasons.
We have children who move into the area because of domestic violence and social situations.
So I think first of all, I'd say don't think about us purely as pupils who've been permanently excluded.
So that's the first thing.
So that gives you a sense of the breadth of complexity that our youngsters have faced.
I would also say those children who have been permanently excluded, there's just not one size fits all.
They very often have experienced many of the social issues that others that I've just mentioned have gone through.
But yeah, we've had children who had criminal records, have committed criminal acts, but we treat them all.
The first thing I'd say is that it's a very forgiving setting.
We see children as children. Their behavior is communication.
Those are, I'd say, our two adages for everybody.
and then from then on it's around trying to engage them.
That's the third word.
I would use three words,
and those are the three words I would talk about in school.
I think the other thing I would like to say
is that if you want our youngsters,
the most vulnerable youngsters in the local authority,
to close their gaps in learning
and to achieve like their peers,
they need to get better than what they're getting
in mainstream school,
and that's the message I would want to share.
I hope that helps in some way to answer your question.
Yeah.
I'll just, Tara.
Just as in context for the medical pre,
so hospital school is a medical pre.
Can you hear me OK?
So the students that we would see,
the students that we would see wouldn't be excluded, obviously.
But they're not able to attend because of medical or mental
health needs.
So by that, they will have been receiving treatment from CAMs
or be on the waiting list for CAMs.
They might be private psychotherapists.
They might be ill with various physical illnesses.
They might be in St. George's Hospital receiving treatment
or outpatients for St. George's,
or inpatients or outpatients at Springfield Hospital.
So there's a whole range of medical needs
that that comes with.
We see children obviously who are undergoing
sort of mental health trauma.
They've had sort of mental ill health at some point,
and that's what they're recovering from.
So that comes with parents, parents need families needing support, parents needing support,
and vulnerability because they're not in school, they're not able to go in school, so there's no oversight.
Parents and children are not held by a school at all.
What we do in the hospital schools is we look at, we make sure we've got a curiosity model for education,
so it's that idea of a passion for living, a passion for education, a passion for living,
So about making sure that there's a curriculum there that children see as relevant to them,
that makes them want to be part of the world, to continue on in life, especially for children
with suicidal ideation or serious self -harm presentations.
So we have very much a curiosity model of education.
Trauma informed practice is part of the bedrock, so a very welcoming and nurturing environment,
very much on acceptance and listening. So all our staff are trained in that also
and really high quality of teaching and I would thoroughly agree with Jackie's
point there on you have got to do better and that's I think what proves are for
proves have to have the very best of on offer for education and often that's
missed because children come to us at the very worst stages in their lives and
where they've already missed a lot of children we have have already missed at
least a year of education through ill health. So they might be a year to
three years out of education by the time they come to us. So you have to catch up
fast, you have to deliver something really of high quality very very fast
and to get those children through GCSEs or through any accreditations. Thank you.
So Councillor Davies I had, then Councillor Paul and then Councillor
Owens. Hello, good to see you again. I was a primary school teacher for a period of my career
and actually saw the benefit of the prison children who had dual registration and then
seeing them come back to the classroom in a calmer state and much more ready for learning and how
that impacts not just on the child but the family unit. So you know and it's really nice to sort of
Yes, from both angles.
The visit to the pre that we did last week,
I think there's about four of us that went along,
was so eye -opening in learning much more
about the different types of provisions that were done.
So thank you very much for that.
But my question is, in the paper,
there was a bit about challenges,
and one of them was about, I think,
some frustrations or tensions, possibly,
about the relations with MASH.
And I just wondered if you could explain that a little bit more
or how that could be sort of eased.
Yeah, I mean, one thing that's been successful
is the social worker in schools.
And what I'd say there is we just need more of it.
You know, bringing our children and their families
tend to be hard to reach.
They've got a fractious relationship
with authority figures and with people that they see
that might harm them, kind of, that are bringing help,
but they don't see that in that way.
So social services in particular.
So anywhere where we can strengthen those links is helpful.
And as I said, the social worker in school
has been one of the programs,
but for us, certainly at Francis Barber,
we haven't got enough of it,
is certainly one of them.
Yeah, is that okay as a starting point?
I think for all services, education,
and you'll hear this from any head teacher,
education is the hub, schools are the hub.
So we see everything and we have low thresholds for concern.
So we're concerned about everything.
And so if we say, and so we'll be contacting,
you know, we'll be saying, where's the police officer?
Where's the school nurse?
And where's the social worker?
We'll want people in place reacting super fast.
And we're usually right.
And services are a difficult position.
So they're trying to reach out and do what they can.
But yes, the fractions are because we
have high expectations, high standards,
and we're always asking for support and help.
And there's often not quite enough of it to go around.
Councillor Paul, I think you had a question next.
I know how passionate you are about the proofs.
Yeah, thank you. I echo what Councillor Davis said about last week's visit because it was
really enlightening and I'm really glad that I attended. This is just following on from
what Councillor Cornyn had mentioned about the transition into, I don't know whether
it's employment, education. Do any of those students actually come back and do any form
of like mentoring or support with the children that are there?
I mean I was to say a little bit from from us it's in the host in hospital
education there's a right to be forgotten so we're really careful about
contacting or liaising or having ex students back often because it's been a
really difficult time in their lives we do and put names forward for other
events where they might be talking to teachers and but not coming back into
the hospital. It can be being admitted to hospital is a traumatic event in itself
so you have to tread really carefully. We keep in touch with our students, they
email us, they phone us in the school office sometimes just to give us a
download on what's going on, but we don't really have them back in and to
talk about it. It's too raw I would say, but talking to other teachers we do.
That's part of the hospital education conferences that we're part of.
we'll have students go and talk to those.
Yeah, from time to time we do it with Francis Barber.
It tends to be a little bit more rare,
but we had, a couple years ago,
we had an ex -pupil who was now an architect.
He came and just popped in and told us about what he was doing.
We often have ours in a much more informal way,
so that a colleague will bump into them in the town
and find out how they're doing.
I know that we had an ex -student who went on to study medicine.
She did really well.
One of our ex -students was the head boy at John Bosco School after he was reintegrated.
So we get lots of good stories there.
And we were sometimes, some of our ex -students, the architect one, he came in and spoke to
some students.
So sometimes they'll come and offer to do that.
We often find that it's more in the more recent years they come back and then they're a little
bit too young to necessarily come in and do that in the setting.
But yeah, it's a nice experience when it happens.
Councillor Owens.
Thank you.
It's all very helpful.
I have a question around some of the challenges that was listed in the report and maybe some
questions for Mr. Hoff as well.
I was particularly interested in the Victoria Drive's cohort shifting towards younger pupils.
Many of us around the table have had our children in Wandsworth schools for well over a decade now.
Certainly mine were in Wandsworth's largest primary for over 10 years.
And we are very, very conscious, obviously, of lockdown and COVID and the impact of that.
But I've always been quite curious as to how the PRU works with the dual setup with these schools,
that in my time, the number of, for example, teaching assistants has collapsed for a lot of the younger years within the primaries.
And it strikes me that actually, that some of the support networks that were in place,
say 10, 12 years ago for younger children are not there to the same extent.
And that's not necessarily just a question of funding under the academization process.
A lot of money is shifted in lots of our schools and our academies to leadership and management.
But I'm curious as to sort of working with those children, because obviously you've got
more children that are now within the dual system and how that works.
And also having chaired a school for over a decade with a high needs block as well within
Wandsworth.
Obviously, that's a huge challenge.
So some of the funding issues there I'm curious about.
Thank you.
So in terms of Victoria Drive,
most of the children who are on role there
will be attending one or two days a week
and will be attending their mainstream school
for the rest of the week.
There has been a significant shift
towards the younger age groups.
One of the ways that the Prewers address this
is by offering more outreach work actually in schools
because sometimes parents understandably,
very young children are reluctant for them to go offsite.
So that's been something that they have developed.
Previously their bread and butter was,
as I put in the paper, was year five and six,
and that's not so much the case now.
Not that there aren't complexities in year five and six,
but that cohort coming through.
And I think there is clearly an element to do
with lockdown and lack of socialization.
But the Peru use their resources very effectively.
They have a play therapist who's valuable,
speech and language.
They have access to cams on site,
which again is so valuable because I'm sure Jackie
can say the same thing about Francis Barber.
When you have therapists who are working on site,
it's so much more effective than giving someone
an appointment in a strange building with a strange person.
Actually, they can build relationships.
I think a great example is Eileen at Victoria Drive
runs a parenting group,
but she doesn't call it a parenting group,
she calls it stress busters.
So again, it's about how you're framing the support
and particularly effective ways to engage with young people.
But yes, I think clearly for every school,
there are rising costs,
and so often the first line to go
in cost savings is support staff.
Thank you. I've got Councillor Burchill next, I think, then Lee and then Aps, and I'm not
going back for a second question because we've got papers to get through, so one question
each.
Thank you very much. I'm interested in knowing about the children who are the school avoidants,
And I see that you start sometimes by engaging with them at home.
I'd just like to know a little bit more about the process and how successful it is,
and are you getting the children back into school?
We're getting them back into our school. It takes about a year.
It takes around a year, I would say, for a child who's been out for a prolonged period of time.
I'd say it takes about a year. And that's where ideally we'd be picking the children up earlier,
but this is a situation that we're in. The quicker you put it, the quicker you pick that up,
the easier it is. And the way that you pick it up, and the way that you hold the child,
and the family and the way a school listens and reassures and builds a plan, a pace that
the family and the child can access that, that will create the most difference. So it's
really, it's very much an individual response. I'd say when we're talking about it, we do
a team around the child, but it's also a team around the school. It's the same when you
transition, it's a team around the next school to make sure that everyone delivers that kind
of soft landing and holds the family and the child through that.
That's so that would be our approach.
When the children are with us, when we're doing that transition, there will be weekly
meetings with the family.
Parents might be contacted every day, so they'll get an update on how their child is doing
every day.
There'll be a handover.
So you're really about building the trust.
You're building an enjoyment in learning, but you're also building the trust with the
family.
Sometimes when we start with children we'll start in the home or we might meet
them in a car park, we might have sessions where the child's in the car
and a teacher is beside the car, we might be at their bedroom door, we might be in
their living room. It's really about where the child is, meeting the child
where they are. Also making sure that there's treatment going in place as well
so if it's just education going in ideally you would have therapy going in
at the same time. That can be problematic because sometimes that they're not able
to attend appointments so teachers are going out on their own and is a bit of a
limb. But essentially you're really listening to that. Our DSL and our
Senco are super busy around the families and all the time making sure
everything's safe, that they have all the information that they need, that they
feel informed. So yeah I'd say it's it's really like forming a protective
cushioning team around around the family and the child and holding them through
process. Counselor Lee, then Counselor Apse. Hi there, yes so I think one of the
the huge positives that that came out of the paper as well was the multi -agency
collaboration between the schools and other organizations, the with CAMs,
with social workers, with other schools.
And obviously we all know how important this is
to ensure that our children are getting holistic support.
I also saw that, was interested to see that the PRU,
all three PRUs share a management board,
and I wanted to ask a little bit more about
how the three schools work together
through that management board.
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, well I'm speaking from Frances Barber,
but I think there's a lot of strengths,
there's a lot of collegiality,
there's support for us as head teachers.
I think having a commonality of the youngsters
that we work with and some of the challenges around them
is really useful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's something you understand.
It's lovely.
I think they often say that being a head teacher is a really lonely job, but it doesn't feel
lonely in the model that we have.
Because you've got heads sharing.
We share practice and share kind of, well, we listen to each other at the management
boards and go, they're trying that one.
OK, we can try that.
There's often we're stealing bits of good practice from each other.
And we also have other head teachers on our management board as well.
And that's lovely.
so we get to hear about them and they'll say,
oh, in mainstream, this is what we're looking at this way.
Or so there's really nice crossover and collaboration
in that way.
But also sharing the differences between the different settings
is also really crucial.
So we develop an awareness of what's
happening across each group of people need.
I think it's worth saying as well,
I think we've appreciated having the influence of Councillor
Osborne on our board as well in the last couple of years.
That's been really positive.
Thank you.
Yeah, that's what I wanted to sort of follow up on as well,
is whether there was anything more
that we can be doing as counselors on the Children's
Committee to advocate and support you
and the three proves.
Since you're asking.
We should.
Yeah.
The Francis Barber sites, one of them has been identified by the DFE with a fantastic
accolade as being one of the schools with the worst, one of the 50 schools in the country
with the worst buildings.
So they have identified one of our sites to be rebuilt and the other site is in dire need
of, it needs to be more appropriate site for the school.
And I think I'll let Tara speak for the...
So as far as a medical pre, we have two hospital schools, but we don't have physical medical
pre.
So there isn't actually a medical pre.
There's a service that goes out and sees children.
We use church halls, cafes.
We use anything that anyone will give us for free.
So we're really looking, and I think the local authority supports this, and we'd love to
actually have a medical crew where children could come and would our approach would actually
be bricks and mortar and they'd see it and feel it and have somewhere to go during a
period of ill health that we could then transition them from. So I think that that would be our
wish list isn't that as an actual.
If I can just say one more line we just moved into a temporary build as ours is being demolished
and one of our children with quite few of our children said oh it's like a proper school
now and that's what we'd want for our children.
No, because we're having one question each because it is so late.
Jesse snuck in the supplementary there, but no, because we're not going to, we've got
two papers for decision and we're absolutely not going to get through.
Councillor Apps and then we will go to the next paper.
Well actually I was going to do the exact opposite and actually withdraw my question
because I thought that was such a nice moment to finish on.
And I want to say thank you so much for you.
It's been so enlightening.
And I hope I get to visit the proof soon,
so I can come on the last visit.
All right, Councillor Stock just wants to say something.
I've asked her not to speak for ages.
Yeah, I'll take that hint.
I just wanted to, it's difficult to see sometimes up here,
but thank you both for coming.
Thank you to Councillor Osborne for really pushing that this item come forward to committee
as an agenda item, really raising the profile of the school.
I think it's important that members know and that we continue to support the Prewes
and the excellent work that they do.
It's really been good to have a discussion about the impact of pupils on the work that
you do, but also recognising some of the challenges.
And I'm so proud of the way that the Prewes and Wandsworth are leading and the best practice
that they're giving both locally but also nationally.
So we continue to be fortunate to have you in the borough serving children here.
So thank you so much.
Note the report.
Thank you everybody.
Bye bye, thank you so much for coming.

5 Schools' Finance Budget Allocations 2025/26 (Paper No. 25-65)

So we can move on to the school's finance budget allocations paper.
It's paper number 25 to 65.
And I, in the interest of time, I am going to go straight to Gareth Evans to introduce
this paper.
And this report is for decision, just to let you know.
Thank you.
Yeah, this paper looks at the school's funding and more widely the dedicated schools grant
for Wandsworth.
The first part of the paper looks at people numbers and how they have moved since last
year and then the paper goes on to look at the changes in the schools block, the high
needs block and the early years block and the funding there.
Schools forum has already looked at these numbers and agreed the formula allocations
are shown in the appendices as the formula rates and the allocations to the schools.
So the paper's looking for approval of those from the committee.
I can take any questions or go through some more of the paper.
Councillor Corner.
Thank you for this paper.
I know we get it every year, but it is really interesting insight and data actually into
what's going on in terms of schools finance.
Two very quick questions.
The first is what are the alternatives to the recommendation that we're trying, that
we're being asked to approve here.
Really, the formula is the formula,
to the extent of my knowledge.
So I'd like to get your reflections on that.
And secondly, looking at the detailed breakdown
of the schools on the first fold -out spreadsheet,
I see there are a number of schools
which look to be in a quite concerning position, actually.
Do you share that assessment?
and to what extent do you think that maybe the top three schools for year -on -year decrease
are actually at risk here of serious dire straits financially?
Yes, in terms of the flexibility within the formula, the funding that comes to the local
office comes to Wandsworth, that's a national funding formula set by government.
We then have flexibility in a local formula to distribute that to our schools.
We can change the rates within that formula.
That's already been debated in schools forum and they've agreed with these figures here.
So there's flexibility at that stage.
In terms of our schools in the borough, I think on the whole our schools are in a strong,
relatively strong financial position compared to schools across the rest of London in particular.
We have very few in an overall sort of deficit position.
Having said that, pupil numbers are falling,
and pupil numbers is the key driver behind schools funding.
So those schools with falling pupil numbers
are going to have a lower allocation this year
compared to last year.
So they could be, you know,
they could have financial difficulty.
We work really closely with the schools
before they get to that position
or try to help avoid that position,
by offering as much advice and guidance as we can in terms of trying to avoid the school going too far into that negative deficit position.
If that's okay, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I think I had Councillor Osborne next and then I've got Councillor Davies.
Councillor?
Yeah, can I ask, be blunt with us, how does this year's settlement compare with last year's
settlement?
Just give us the bold facts, the blunt facts on it.
Okay, it depends on the part of the dedicated schools grant.
So for the schools block part, once we've rolled in all of the grants that were granted
last year into this grant, they've all become part of the same grant now.
The increase on the various levels is about half a percent.
So for the mainstream schools block, not a huge increase.
For the high needs block, it's a larger increase, so an increase of about 6 .67 percent in the
high needs block, which is the area where we have the most difficulty and funding pressures.
So that equates to about 4 .5 million pounds extra for Wandsworth next year.
And for early years, there's a significant increase in that part of the funding as well.
That's down to primarily the increase in the free education places for children.
So last year, children of work, sorry, two -year -olds of working parents were eligible for free
15 hours from April last year and for under twos from September last year and from September
this year, September 25, those entitlements are increasing to 30 hours.
So as such, the block is significantly bigger to accommodate that.
And within that, the rates have gone up as well.
So for the two -year -olds, three - and four -year -olds and under twos, the rates have gone up around
about 3 .8 to 4%. I've got Councillor Davies and then Councillor
Apps and Councillor Crivelli. My question is really building on that point
about the early years and so I just wondered about how the take -up in early years is compared
to the DFE estimates on the extended hours elements of the funding?
So we've only had a couple of terms of it so far, but in both cases, well, for the two -year -olds,
the take -up has been higher than the DFE estimates, and for the under -2s, we're still compiling
the data, but it looks like it's also going to be higher than the DFE estimates, yeah.
Significantly higher, yeah.
Councilor Aps.
Thank you.
It's pretty clear that falling roles is having a major impact on schools.
What impact has managing the sufficiency and the number of vacancies in the system had on supporting the overall position and
sustainability of schools across the borough?
So I think the impact can be seen more clearly where we've capped PAN at various schools.
So a school that was maybe receiving applications for 35 or 40 children at reception, we've
capped that at 30 in many schools.
That has two effects, really.
It means that the school can then have just one class at the reception level rather than
two.
So therefore there's fewer teachers and it's a more financially efficient way of teaching
the children.
And also those children that don't go to that school will go to the other schools in the
locality and so increase their numbers as well, which impacts their funding.
Councillor Crivelli.
Can I ask you a question about the schools block in paragraph 19?
You have said as well as schools block funding, it is expected that a further grant will be
distributed to schools in the financial year 25, 26 to fund at national level the increase
in national insurance contributions applicable from April 2025.
Firstly, I assume that that cash, you can't say whether that money is in effect guaranteed,
and you also, I assume, couldn't say what impact that would necessarily have on one's
or schools.
Have you factored in the likelihood that some schools may have to absorb some of that cost
themselves?
So we know that there's definitely going to be a grant, but we don't yet know the methodology,
and therefore we can't work out on a school by school basis
the impact the grant will have.
We will do that once we can and obviously provide support
to those schools where we need it and where there is a gap,
but as you mentioned on a national level,
it will be funded.
That's what we understand.
Councilor Owens.
Thank you, I just have another follow -up question
on the early years on page, well, six of the paper,
at post -32.
Obviously, we went through the changes
in terms of early years funding from nine months to age two,
with the current year being a maximum of 15.
That changing.
I was just wondering with the nursery schools that we have
and their funding, because of course, they
don't work on a full -time 52 weeks of the year,
10, 11 hour day.
And how, obviously, with the system changing,
and it has changed over several years now for working parents, and that's what it's designed for.
And a lot of this funding and those changes came under the previous government. I was just
wondering how the nursery schools and ones with the coping with that, because obviously they
require different block funding to what is available under the set out for those with small children.
So the rates set are considerably higher than the rates at three and four year olds so that
does account for additional staff required.
Some PVIs are providing a top of charging parents a top up.
How they articulate is different.
But on the whole, we're able to with our schools cover our costs with the funding that is quiet
it's 12 pounds or so towards the lower age groups.
Okay, thank you everybody for your questions
and thank you to Mr. Hoff.
I think we can now move to the recommendations.
As I said, this paper is for decision
and dioceses and parent governors can vote on it.
And we are recommended to vote on the recommendations.
It's page 28 and it is paragraph 2.
So we support the recommendations of paragraph 2.
Support. Thank you very much.
We can move on.

6 Education Performance Report 2024-25 (Paper No.25-66)

The next paper which is education performance
report. Another good news
paper with the exceptional quality of our schools
that continues and I have to include the other side in that as well and hopefully we're carrying
on that tradition of having these very high performing schools.
This is Mr. Hoff again so if I can go straight to you in the interest of time, Mr. Hoff,
and then we can take questions and this is to note there isn't a decision on this paper.
Yes, the first point I'd want to make is that people outcomes on the Holm and Wandsworth
are extremely positive.
As notable, the primary attainment in early years
in phonics is significantly higher than national
and higher than London.
And at key stage two, while slightly lower than London,
is still significantly higher than national.
At secondary, all of our secondaries have
positive Progress 8 scores, and you'll see
that we're in the top 10 ranking
for Progress 8 nationally.
Now ultimately, these outcomes are down
to the quality and determination, hard work
of our school leaders, their teachers,
and of course, their support staff.
We're also fortunate as a council,
we have positive constructive relationships
with both our maintained schools
and our academies across both sectors.
Our advisory and support teams work extensively
across both sectors to support and promote
positive outcomes for these pupils.
Our priority areas include disproportionality
and underperformance of some groups,
including our disadvantaged cohort,
and we've done extensive work at key stage five
to understand the reason for the lower attainment
at this stage.
This is of course related to the fact
that all of our secondary schools have sixth forms.
We rank second nationally for the percentage of young people
attending a state -funded sixth form.
Schools, of course, do not work in a vacuum.
And one of the most striking bits of data
you may have noticed in the,
is the altogether unsurprising correlation
between school attendance and outcomes.
Our education welfare service provides advice
and support to schools, but of course,
influence can be brought to bear through many avenues.
Our social workers, our early health professionals
all have a part to play in promoting attendance,
as do health professionals.
And our education welfare service have done extensive work with all of these groups to raise awareness of the importance of school attendance
My welcome introduction to family hubs, of course, which bring agencies and services together to support families
Prioritizing supporting school attendance is a key part of this
I'll leave it at that and there any questions happy to I think counselor Davies was jumping straight
Yeah, thank you very very much a good newspaper and which was
Good to read
But I just wondered, I mean the one thing that's,
the one little thing that stands out from this
is about the key stage five.
So I'd just like to know what's been done this year
to improve the outcomes there, thank you.
So I think a really key thing was for us
to actually understand why do the figures look like they are
and what can we do about it.
And when you consider that three and five
state -funded secondary schools in England have six forms,
but all of ours have six forms.
obviously there is a much higher percentage
of our young people who are going into our sixth forms.
And when we look at where there are large numbers
of sixth forms, children with low attainment,
many more children with low attainment
are going into sixth forms.
The analysis we've done in terms of teaching and learning
is that the outcomes that our young people get
in terms of their attainment going in
are actually where they should be.
The issue is, and we had a really interesting piece
of analysis we did and we presented to our sixth form
leaders and some head teachers, which essentially pointed out
that if we were to take out, so hypothetically we took out
30 % of the lowest performing, lowest attainers at key stage
five to see what would that look like.
Well, that suddenly takes us from 100th to 32nd
in the league tables.
And it was hypothetical.
The people that obviously affected the most
were, not surprisingly, mainly children on free school meals
and people from global majority backgrounds.
One of the head teachers who wasn't actually at the meeting
and picked it up secondhand accused us of trying to say,
let's stop providing A levels for global majority
and free school meals to children
in order that we would boost our ratings on the table.
Well, of course we weren't gonna do that.
What it does, however, illustrate and what they said
was that actually it shows that our schools
are very inclusive.
They want to make sure that the young people
are going into their sixth forms.
Young people, on the whole, they know
and are staying there.
The leverage that we have is to make them consider
what are the best options for those young people to stay in.
So the analysis showed if you take chemistry, for instance,
a lot of young people with low attainment
were doing chemistry and not getting good outcomes.
So that would indicate that possibly chemistry
is not a good option for some of these young people.
So it's about making sure that schools are aware
of what are appropriate, and also looking at,
and making sure that the young people and their parents,
I have to say, because I think many parents
are very keen for their children to take sciences,
for instance, but it's really important
there is the right information and guidance
given to those young people to ensure that they
take the courses that are right for them.
Our performance in BTECs actually is very strong,
so again, we're thinking about how can we promote
vocational courses, but of course,
there's quite a lot of uncertainty in that
and in terms of what is the future of BTECs.
So again, we're working with our schools
to negotiate their way through
a changing environment in that sense.
Thank you.
Councilor Owens.
Thank you, just following on from that,
and I'm one of many hundreds of parents
who are currently going through
around all the ones with state school six forms,
and I can tell you all about Ashcroft versus Graveney
versus Chestnut Grove.
But just on this, the reality is that if you have lots of state funded sixth forms and
you have a second nationality nationally for the percentage of young people attending,
part of the problem that we have with the lack of BTECs is because we don't have the
sixth form colleges perhaps that they have in other boroughs.
And obviously a lot of, and around the country, a lot of our children obviously leave the
borough and go off to East York College and places like that.
And I really noticed that, and maybe it is something for the council or maybe it's something
for schools, but that there is a lot of misinformation out there.
So for example, when you were talking about chemistry as an example, you know, our hugely
successful school, GraveKnee, which offers at sixth form an additional 200 places on
top of the 150 to 200 already has of children.
I mean, more or less categorically says that those places are not really available for
children studying STEM subjects because the current GraveKnee cohort take up because they
have a let's face it 50 % grammar stream,
I mean they might call it slightly less,
but that's what it is, take up most of those places.
And I think one of the problems is, for parents,
is there's a lot of misinformation out there
in terms of what we should be looking at
and what we should be doing,
and perhaps there aren't the BTECs that there should be.
Thank you.
Well, and one of the things that schools
have been considering is T levels.
And in terms of our six form conferences,
as we've had speakers about T levels,
but of course we're the early adopters in Wandsworth,
and have had some success with it.
But of course it's a big investment for schools
and a little bit of a gamble when it's slightly unclear
of what the future of those qualifications is.
I think again it's heartened, I think one of the things
that we've managed with having a specific
Key Stage 5 advisor is to get South Thames more involved
with our sixth form colleagues as well
so that there is better information
about what are some of the other options out there.
Councillor Paul, I think you had a question.
Thank you.
I just wanted to go back a bit on the question that Councillor Davies asked about, I think
you answered in relation to people or students and families being realistic about what subjects
they're choosing.
How would the council ensure that there's no sort of bias set into any model of that
nature to make sure that kids who are capable but just don't fit, you know, the
mold, the look, whatever it is, and not being disadvantaged?
It's a good question. I think we have to consider as a local authority what
leverage we have. Um, and I think in terms of sixth forms, it is to a degree
it's going to be limited because we can't tell six forms what they should
offer. I think, however, it is in the interests of schools to make sure that
they are making an offer that's appropriate.
I think in terms of access, appropriate access
and inequalities, I think we're working
with schools generally, and I would certainly hope
that applies as much to the sixth form
as it does to lower down the school.
The sixth form is a separate judgment on an Ofsted report,
so just from that point of view, it's in their interest
that they are able to demonstrate
that the offer they are making is appropriate.
We can work with them, we can share data,
we can show where, you know, what we feel
they should be offering and actually
by bringing them together, there is much greater
collaboration in terms of schools being able to see
what each other are offering and possibly
where some of the gaps are.
Probably leads on to my second question, is that okay?
Yeah, it's just what support are we giving to our schools
to help to close the disadvantage gap?
I notice that it's small anyway,
but what are we actually doing?
So when I spoke earlier about the attendance issue,
I think it's much wider than just the school issue.
It is, of course, school is at the heart of it.
But I think many of those disadvantaged pupils are,
you know, they're poor attenders.
I think we're doing a lot of work around,
because again, the intersectionality between
different groups in terms of disadvantaged,
some ethnic groups, SEND for instance,
there's great crossover.
So I think it is absolutely key that first of all,
schools are engaging young people,
and that's making sure there is a sense of belonging.
I think also, again, when I talked about
that multi -agency approach in terms of actually
getting people into school in the first place.
So I think a big part of it is attendance.
That's not all of it.
There is a huge piece about aspiration,
And again, I think that's about making schools
absolutely clear in terms of their equalities agenda
and making sure that their equality statements
are not just lip service on their website
because they have to all put them,
which again ties into our
Colleges and Curriculum Advisor who's been doing audits.
And actually, schools have been remarkably open
and more so over time to allow her to come in,
have some disruptive conversations,
some quite difficult conversations.
and actually we're making sure that we're using peer -to -peer support, which I think is one of the most powerful things because we often as a
local authority we can talk to a blue in the face, but actually it takes fellow practitioners
who will say this is what works and also it helps that our curriculum and qualities advisor is a self very
recently has been a Wandsworth deputy head, so again has a certain amount of cache amongst her peers.
Thank you Mr. Hoffer, comprehensive answer.
So, I'm bringing this to a close because we're up against the clock.
This report is for information, noted for information.
Thank you.
I'm sorry, Mr. Arum, we have to go on to the next paper because they're for decision and
we're not going to get there.

7 General Fund Capital Programme of capital maintenance schemes to schools in 2025-26 (Paper No. 25-67)

So that brings us to the General Fund Capital Program of Capital Maintenance Schemes to
Schools in 2025 -26.
It's paper number 25 to 67.
Just quickly, the committee welcomes proposals outlined in Appendix A, which detail the important
work that several schools across our borough will benefit from to enhance the learning
environment for our Wandsworth children.
And Mr. Booth is going to introduce the paper, and it's for decision.
Good evening, Councillors.
So the paper relates to the school condition allocation, or SCA.
This is a capital grant that comes from the DFE and it's there to support for major maintenance
within the community schools.
It does not include the academies because the academies receive direct funding from
the DFE for this type of work on it.
So around about June, July, we go out to the schools and we ask them to bid for major maintenance
items.
We encourage multiple bids as well as each bid is assessed and then it's scored by four
criteria, which you'll see in paragraph 9, which is health and safety, safeguarding,
the impact on curriculum and the potential for closing the school.
It is not based on cost, it is based on the requirements and if you like the condition
on that.
We then put all the bids and they are all ranked and prioritized which you can see in
the appendix.
And we have a certain amount of money that we receive from the DFE, from the grant, which
we base on, this year we are basing it on the current level of funding we have, which
is 1 .65 million.
There is also some a little bit of uncommitted funds from previous years, so it's effectively
it's savings that we've made on the previous program or programs of 288 ,000.
And we also asked for the schools to contribute 10 % of the cost of the works up to and it's
capped at 20 ,000.
So that has generated another further 100 ,000.
And so we have a total budget this year to add to the capital programme of 2 .038 million
with it.
And what we do is essentially is we go down the list until we actually get to the point
where we can, you know, till we reach that level and then we have to cap it at that point.
What I would point out though is that the level of the SCA has remained predominantly
unchanged for the last four years.
And with hyperinflation in construction back in about 2021 -22, and a much higher level
coming through as well at the moment, we can do much less for the money.
And we are now having a fair amount of kind of backlog maintenance that's starting to
come into the program.
And that's why we include the list of reserve projects you'll see on the list that should
we get any further money from the DFE, we would bring those into the program.
Thank you very much, Mr Booth.
Can we go straight to questions?
Councillor Corner and then Councillor Osborne.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Mr Booth, for your presentation and your warning, if I may put it that way,
on the nature of schools capital funding.
It'll be interesting to see how that plays out
over future years.
Just a very quick question.
Could you just confirm on page 73
what the unidentified urgent health and safety works is?
It looks like quite a small piece of work,
but I just wondered if that was something
that the committee should be concerned about.
No, we carry within the program
a certain amount, if you like, of contingency
of which one of them is urgent health and safety funds.
It's only a small amount.
But it's in case a boiler suddenly falls over that we weren't expecting and we have to go
in and sort it out.
Yeah, I've got two questions really.
The main one is this additional funding from central government on school maintenance.
When will we know how much we're going to get and what we're going to be able to do
with it?
And you did talk about the process of prioritization of projects.
And I was going to ask about that.
So if you wanted to expand on what you said in your presentation, please feel free to
do so.
But if you feel you've answered that already, then fair enough.
So, we prepare the program in advance, effectively coming to the committee in February time.
We don't get the full announcement from the DFE.
It's normally around about April.
It can be May.
It can even be later than that.
If we waited until that time when the announcement was made, we would not be in a position where
we could go in, predominantly over the summer holiday, to do the urgent works.
So we are going slightly at risk at the precise moment.
However, if the funding comes in less than we're predicting,
then we have to reduce the budgets accordingly.
It seemed to work okay for a number of years so far.
It'd be nice if the DFE actually provided further funding,
and I think we're in no different position
than a lot of other boroughs across the whole of the UK
with this backlog maintenance,
and I think we're all looking for additional funding
to come through.
But again, the paper sets out the projects we would bring into the program if that funding
was available.
Thank you very much, Mr. Booth.
So this paper is for decision.
The recommendations are on page 67.
The executive is recommended paragraph 2A, B, and C. Is that agreed?
Thank you very much.
And that brings us to the final paper.

8 2024/25 Quarterly monitoring Q3 and 2025/26 budget (including annual review of charges) (Paper No. 25-68)

I know we're almost hitting the guillotine, but we did have an adjournment when we went
out for a bit.
So I think we can go on to the final paper, which is paper number 2568, cautionary monitoring
Q3 2526 budget, including annual review of charges.
And that is Mr. Halleck to introduce briefly.
I'll just keep it brief.
This is the standard paper, but it does have an appendix with next year's budget.
So that is what you haven't seen before.
I'm happy to take any questions.
Anybody got a lot?
Councillor Paul.
We do.
Are you ready?
So you do see that the overspend has crept up.
It's just to understand why that is and what can we do about it.
So it is a similar question to the last couple of committees.
Most of our pressure is in the placements market.
And yeah, the single placement does have a big impact on the finance.
It's the biggest risk for us.
We have managed to mine very well in this area through our practice models and keeping
children at home, et cetera.
So yeah.
Thank you, and well done on the excellent cost control and financial management in a
difficult situation that the sector finds itself in.
The, going back to the theme that
counselors should be briefed properly on the care of vulnerable children in the borough.
I know I have raised this in an officer's briefing, but I'd just like to let the committee know that
I would like the committee to be briefed on the children in an anonymous way, of course.
that command such high fees that are detailed
in the appendix and I think it would be valuable
for us as committee members to really understand
what the care that those children receive
and why it costs so much, what the drivers are
and how we can potentially look to reduce costs.
So I think the officers have already committed
to running that briefing and I really think
it would be really valuable to do.
So that corporate parenting principles can be met.
Councillor Kourna, I will just say that these are slightly different cohorts to the Bradstow
which are funded from DSG.
Thank you, thank you, Councillor Kourna, for that contribution.
I think that's quite a good way of bringing this to a close, except, sorry, it's for decisions,
so we actually have to vote on this.
The recommendations are on page 75 and the executive is recommended at paragraph 2A and
B. The parent Governor and diocese representatives can vote.
I cannot vote.
Cannot vote.
Sorry, I am losing the plot here.
So I think that brings this meeting to a close.
No, no, we need to vote.
We need to vote.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
You can.
Thank you, Councillor Burchill.