Licensing Sub-Committee - Wednesday 4 December 2024, 7:00pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

Licensing Sub-Committee
Wednesday, 4th December 2024 at 7:00pm 

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Okay, we're good to go. Thank you and welcome everyone to this meeting
of the Licensing Subcommittee on the 4th of December 2024. The first item of business
for tonight will be for the appointment of a chair, owing to the chair being unable to
attend this meeting and I'll now invite councillors French and Justin to
agree who will be chairing the meeting and I will hand that to the councillors now.
Thank you. I'll get my Arby's to chair if you fancy. I'm happy to chair just in case the council has me in absent. I did email, apologies for that.
In that case that would be unanimous given there is two councillors but it's
formal decision. So with that being completed, we will now move to the remainder of the items
on the business with Councillor French in the chair for the meeting. Thank you. Thank you.
Okay, welcome to this meeting of the sub -licence of the Licensing Subcommittee, which is held as
a remote meeting, is being webcast. And please bear with us if there are any technical issues.
I think we've already started. My name is Councillor Katrina French and I'm chairing this
themselves in the following order. Councillors, officers, applicants and representations.
Over to you, Councillor Justin.
Hello, I'm Councillor Mark Justin, Councillor for Nine Elms.
Paul Greeno, Legal Advisor.
Julie, you're on mute.
Apologies. My name's Julie Hopkins. I'm a Principal Licensing Officer dealing with Wandsworth
Applications.
My name is Michael Flowers and I'll be the lead Democratic Services Officer supporting the meeting tonight.
Hi everyone, I'm Becky Hickey, I'll be webcasting the meeting.
And I will just add Rebecca Hickey will be supporting in a Democratic Services role for tonight and will be present for the decision room as well.
Thank you, and over now to our applicants.
Sorry, Mr Chan, we can't hear you at the moment. Let me go first. This is Kanjis
Hung. I'm the applicant, one of the applicants, the owner of the restaurants. Thank you.
Thank you. Sorry, Mr Chan, we can't hear you at the moment. Unfortunately, we still
can't hear you Mr Chan. Let me go first. He also has some problems with the earphones.
Maybe he joined my screen. Is that okay? Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. Thank you so much.
Can anyone hear me? Yes, we can hear you. Sorry about that. I'm Chi Chan, one of the
owner and I'm also the major applicant for this application license. Thank you and back over to
you Mr Chung. Hello I'm Dennis Chung and one of the partners of Sutti Wang. Thank you everybody.
Is there anyone else I've missed Mr. Flowers?
Everyone else declared, introduced themselves?
That is chair, thank you.
Wonderful.
Over to agenda item one and two.
Are there any apologies for absence or declarations
of interest for any of the items on the agenda?
If yes, please could you confirm the apology for absence
and the declaration of interest, Mr. Flowers?
Thank you, thank you chair.
This is an apology absence from Councillor McLeod who's unable to attend the meeting
tonight.
Okay, I believe then we have no declarations of interest.
We'll proceed to item number four.
We will now consider the application for a new premises license in respect of premises
known as Tzukie Raman, ground floor and basement 288 Upper Richmond Road.
That's an extra interest.
We'll proceed to item number four.
and I invite the licensing officer to introduce the application.
Thank you, Councillor. An application has been received from Tukki
Raman Limited for a new premises license at the premises known as Tukki Raman Basement
and Ground Floors 288 Upper Richmond Road, London, SW 15 6TH. The applicant is seeking
a premises license to allow the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises between 11
until 11pm Monday to Sundays. The proposed hours of
licenceable activities and opening times are laid out in
Appendix B to the report. The application was advertised as
required under the legislation and this is resulting in the
receipt of one representation from other persons.
Representations will also receive two of the responsible
authorities and the council's trading standards officer and
the Metropolitan Police Licensing Section. All the
those officers were accepted by the applicant and have been incorporated into the operating
schedule in Appendix A of the report. These will become conditions of the licence if it
is granted. No representations were received from any other responsible authorities. The
application for on -sales of alcohol is within one's of Council's Licensing Policy Guideline
Hours. Councillors, I have no further matters to raise in respect to this application, but
happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you. Thank you, Ms Hopkins. So does anyone,
does the subcommittee have any questions for the alliances in office? Over to you,
Councillor Justin, if you do have any questions. Are these premises currently licensed and this
is a change or it's a complete shop? No, it's a new application. I think the premises was
previously DIY or garden shop.
And have the applicants held a license themselves elsewhere?
That I wouldn't know.
Maybe they could tell us.
Yeah.
We don't currently process any of the license.
That's why we're applying on.
Okay.
Any more questions, Mr. Justin?
No, that's fine.
I read the application and thank you for choosing Wellsworth as a place to start a business.
Just to check, so the alcohol being requested will be served with food primarily? You see yourselves as a restaurant that would like to sell alcohol along with people's bills?
Yeah exactly, we offer casual dining and casual drinking the environment is not for heavy drinking
so I don't see any point this application should carry feels like really so well we asked for this
meeting just because we also are aware there's an objection from from Mr. Feller so we we think
appropriate to attend this meeting just to answer any inquiries.
Thank you. So just to confirm, it's primarily a restaurant that would like to serve alcohol along with food, but if people come in for like a light snack, so forth, then there'll be seven.
Because I saw in the application, Miss Hopkins, that it said no vertical drinking allowed.
Yes, that's correct. That's correct. Yes, that was probably a police representation,
so that would have been a police condition. Okay, I have no further questions at this
point. Are there any other questions of clarification on anything that has been stated? As a reminder,
both the applicant and representations will have a chance to address the subcommittee
and this should only be where you would like clarification on something stated by the speaker.
If yes, thank you, please take your question. If no, I can see no requests for further questions of clarification,
so I'll just pause there. Does anyone have any questions of clarification at this point?
Okay. I will now invite the applicant to address the subcommittee,
and you will have five minutes to speak, after which questions may be asked of you.
So over to the applicants now, thank you.
Because it's my first time doing this, I really have, I need some guidelines, guide,
helps with that, like what kind of questions should I ask, because I believe the application
I mentioned all the four licensing objectives in the application already and I don't really have
any more to ask because I think I acquired my personal license, I educated staff in the
premises already about like sales of alcohol, what they need to be aware and we compliance with the
the interior of the premises. So we are doing all the things we are aware to
provide a safe environment for our customers. Thank you for that answer Mr Chan. I can see
that you've got your hand raised Mr Flower. So would you like to come in at this point?
Yes and I think myself and Mr Greeno might be saying the same thing but for Mr Chan that is
exactly what the committee would want to hear in your statement. So this five -minute opportunity
is an opportunity for you perhaps to tell us a bit more about yourselves as people, as applicants,
what you maybe see the purpose of the business and how you'll fit into the community. And obviously
you've mentioned things such as your staff, you've undertaken training as well, but it's very much
an opportunity for us to tell the councillors why you would like them to grant the application and
in the absence of the representation you have that opportunity as well perhaps to just address
any comments they've made that you'd like to do so at this stage but I think before I hand back
to the chair perhaps Paul I think you might have been going in a similar route of providing some
guidance so I'll pass that to you. Thanks for the greener comment. Yes, slightly similar although
what I was going to say is because the applicant hasn't done this type of presentation before,
if it would assist I'm happy to ask some leading questions so that they can give the information
to the committee if you think that that will assist.
If you have any questions you can ask because I'm also the first time to do something like
hearing because I'm new to UK. So if you have any questions to
ask about our restaurant and what we can do to adapt to the
community, you just asked me. I'm happy to answer.
Are you happy for me to proceed, Councillors, to asking
questions?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, please.
Okay. Right, you've made the application. You're aware of
what you are required to do if the license is granted. You're aware that you're required to
comply with conditions? Yes, we will comply all the conditions in post such as scheme 25.
So you've accepted all of the conditions that trading standards and the police have suggested?
Yeah we do, we accept all the conditions.
And there won't be any vertical drinking but at sort of people just standing at the bar?
No vertical drinking is allowed in the condition, we will strictly comply with this.
And is it going to be table service that you'll be operating?
Yeah, it will be majorly table service and for take away we are not allowing the purchase of NAMC.
And you've seen the objection that's been raised by Mr. Fellows.
Yeah.
What steps will you take to ensure that none of your customers engage in public urination in the courtyard area?
I think that objection is kind of quite personal because there's things happen, but if you want to
know that we can we can explain what happened, but to answer Mr. Fallon's concern is like we have
enough toilets for customers, we won't oversell alcohol to people that's locked drunk already,
like slightly drunk and we are not selling alcohol to like underage so I don't see where
there's concern coming from like how can I don't know maybe his cultural thing but I don't see our
customer will treat. The thing is his area I will suggest him if he see crime call the police for
for help. Let's say if anything's happened in our premises, we will contact the police
for help, assistance for sure.
See, you don't see yourself or your operation adding to any crime and disorder within the
area?
Not at all. We will help fighting crimes if there's any suspicious.
And how many toilets do you have at the premises?
We have two toilets for the customer and one small toilet for the staff.
It's quite a big one in terms of the size.
Can I just say something just to put Mr Chan's mind at rest.
As a licensee myself for 40 years, I've held many licenses, multiple licenses and all at the same time.
and I've been through this process. What I need to, I think we need to explain to you that the question about urination,
however bizarre it may sound to you, is one of the most popular questions that is asked by people who object.
And you just have to, and I think you've answered it adequately,
but if you think it's very unusual or particular to yourself, you mustn't think that unfortunately it's one of the most popular questions
that's asked by objectors, and you just need to answer in the way you have.
it's nothing unusual about it, which I'm sure you feel it's unusual because you've never been through this process before, but believe me, I've had it asked of me many times.
Okay, yeah, I fully agree with what Councillor Justin has said. I've attended numerous subcommittees
and where there are representations from people of responsible authorities, a number of them
do deal with issues like littering public urination. So what you would see is just low
level crime and disorder, but which to residents, they
actually find something like this quite discressing. So
that's why we do take it seriously. And we do ask the
questions. So it is something that happens with almost any
type of application.
Thank you, Mr. Reno, and thank you, Councillor Justin for
providing that reassurance to the applicants and a wider
broader perspective, as they said, they're just new to the UK. So I suppose it could be, you know,
you don't know what you don't know. So I think that kind of reassurance that this isn't an
unusual question, it's not targeted at you, but we do have to address concerns made by objectors.
So I'm really glad that you both interjected there and provided some words of support and a
broader context. Mr. Chan, I see your hands raised. So back over to you.
I just want to clarify, I've been here since 1999, so I kind of quite understand the British culture.
The thing I mentioned is that I maybe I used the wrong word, and maybe I don't understand,
like the objection is for me, it's about like making assumption of what people would do.
Thank you and I apologize if you felt I misinterpreted your kind of, your, your, your British as much as me, but exactly that it's something that we have to address in terms of it has been raised, and it seems that it's not an uncommon thing to be raised,
even though for most people in the school it's uncommon to use a toilet that isn't a toilet.
So I'm glad that I think you sufficiently answered and provided reassurances that there's enough
restroom facilities within the establishment for both staff and people coming to eat restauranteres
that this shouldn't be a problem for your establishment. I don't know Mr Flowers if we've
kind of parity reached the five minute mark here because I haven't been keeping count.
I think given the circumstance in terms of the assistance provided and the questions from Mr Greeno that it's probably fair that the five minute statement isn't used in this case and I'll go back to you chair as I can see some hands raised for this part of the meeting.
We've got you on mute, sorry.
Back to Mr. Cheung. It says Councillor Katrina French, but obviously no, it's not me there.
So I'm going to just say Mr. Cheung, thank you.
Can I say something?
Yeah, that's you, both of you. Sorry.
Because after one month run the business, we already know. Right now we try to close a little bit earlier.
For example, at the beginning, I told you that is from 11, we're selling the alcohol from 11 to 11.
But right now, for example, on Sunday, we try to make it at 9 .30.
And then the rest of the day also is 9 .30.
And then we close on Monday and Tuesday.
So that's why we try to limit the effect to the community,
to try to shut down our music and everything.
And also we hire some professionals to collect our commercial rubbish twice a week.
So I think we tried our best to do something which is not affect our neighbourhood.
Thank you for sharing that.
It sounds like you've got some pragmatic steps in place to minimise disruption to local neighbourhood.
Thank you for sharing those.
I don't know if anybody else has any questions or clarification for the applicants at this
point.
Just one more for the applicants.
how many people, how many members of staff,
including yourselves, will actually have personal licenses?
Oh, I'm actually, I have the personal license already.
The hours that you'll be keeping,
as all licensees do, keep tremendously long hours.
It's such a tiring job.
I mean, is there a provision for someone else
to a premises license holder to be their
personal license holder on a day that you've taken off?
Actually, we shut down the whole shop on Monday and Tuesday, so the whole team will be there.
I can understand that. I've gone over to that myself. I'm talking Tuesday as well, so I
understand. And the rest of the time we'll be there.
We both have the plan to have the license.
You can just always bear that in mind. I mean, sometimes someone goes on holiday or someone
has a child or gets it and then sometimes they don't like new licenses like yourself don't realize
we've got to have someone there who's got a license. I totally understand you so we both have a plan
to apply a person in licensing and give the training to the staff. Okay.
wish. Apologies chair, you're on mute.
Oh, gosh, I'm very ditzy this evening. Apologies. I'm saying thank you, Councillor Justin for that. And also thank you applicants for the response.
does. So moving on now, we I think I will now we've invited people that are making
representations to address the subcommittee, but my understanding is that, back to you
Mr Flaws.
Yeah, apology chair, perhaps before this, can I just check, Miss Hung, is that a legacy
hand or were you still looking to speak because I could see a hand raised? I think I think
that that's okay. And I can see the licensing officer also has a
hand raised before before moves on.
Thank you.
I think it's just important to point out that this application
is just for on sales. So any takeaway you cannot provide
alcohol? That's just for clarification.
Yes, we can do that.
Okay, perfect.
And share just to then answer your earlier question in terms
of I think the representation not being present. Obviously, members will be mindful that there
was a written representation that was submitted, which will still be valid. In the slightly
unusual absence where there's no representations in attendance, it might be beneficial if you
do have any questions to what they've said. Or if obviously the applicants have any questions
on anything that was stated, if it's directed perhaps to the licensing officer and legal advisor,
and they can perhaps try and provide some answers where possible, obviously,
noting they can't speak on behalf of the representation and their own views.
Well, I could just reflect on the object on the objection that was made in terms of how
I received it or interpreted it. I think the clarification that's been provided this evening
is incredibly useful.
I also wanted to say that from my perspective, it felt a bit unwarranted that as you guys didn't have a license already, you're potentially being objected to when it wasn't your patrons that were trespassing or urinating in an inappropriate place.
So just looking at it, I can understand the concerns that the objector makes, but in terms of your license, I kind of thought that would be quite harsh to kind of deem that the license shouldn't be granted.
because of other people's actions and not necessarily because of your actions of your establishment. So I kind of just wanted to state that if that was okay, Mr. Greeno?
Yes, chair, that's absolutely fine. What I was going to say is when considering the representation,
it needs to go along beyond sorry, mere speculation, not a fear that something will happen, but
why something is more likely to happen.
Thank you, Mr Green. I was going to say I hope if the objectors watching online or maybe they chose not to join that they would be satisfied with the
with the discussion that we've had earlier of the meeting about the facilities being adequate and
you know, all we can do is is not wait and see but just anticipate this shouldn't be happening because the adequate there's adequate
provision for it to be avoided. So I don't have any more questions in regards to the statement that we received.
I don't know if Councillor Justin, I know you discussed earlier that this is quite a normal thing,
but at this point maybe you might want to say something yourself, sir?
I'm okay, well let's find out. All I would reiterate is that one of them applies for a personal license themselves to not leave themselves in the trap of having a sickness and find out there's actually no responsible person on the premises for the future. So I would encourage them to go and get a personal license. It's very easy.
Thank you for that encouragement.
Yeah, we definitely do it in the video day.
Thank you. That's a welcome piece of advice and guidance. It's nice to have someone who's a veteran at these things able to, you know, provide the newcomers and the novices about how to do things with best practice. So thank you for that wonderful advice and support there, Councillor Justin.
Okay, so if there are any questions or questions or
clarifications or anything that has been stated in this recent
part of our meeting, if yes, please state your questions. If
no, I can see no requests for questions or clarification, but
I'll pause there just in case there are anyone to raise their
hand either way. Okay, thank you. That concludes this part of the
meeting, the decision reasons and any legal guidance given to
during this, oh, go on Mr. Flowers, am I?
Apologies, Chair, just from a procedural point, we do need to
provide an opportunity for closing remarks, if, if the
applicant would like. This is generally just a one to two
minute opportunity for them just to give you any food for
thought, so to speak. And, and then to you.
Applicants, as Mr. Flowers has said, there's an opportunity
now for you to provide
closing remarks in relation to your
application.
The floor of the room is yours.
The beyonds I have no more follow -up to
say because I think from our
conversation
I transfer all our findings already
and I appreciate this meeting. I think
you've answered
all the questions, your presentation
has been fine. You don't need to add anything else unless there's anything that you desperately
want to say in response to anything that anybody may have said earlier in the meeting.
Okay.
I don't have much to add.
That's fine. And please don't feel compelled. If you believe and feel you've said enough,
I'm a strong believer is a full stop is stronger than a semicolon. So more than happy for us to say thank you for the presentation and then I will go back to the script that I have.
So thank you. That now concludes this part of the meeting, the decision reasons and any legal advice given during the subcommittee's decision discussion that has informed that decision will be confirmed in writing, together with information about any rights of
within five working days. Members of the licensing
subcommittee, the Democratic Services Officer and legal
advisor, we will now join a separate meeting, confidential
meeting, to make the decision. Okay, so at this point, I'd
really like to say thank you applicants, I wish your business
every success. If I'm ever in the area, I will pop in. It's
wonderful to see people coming to Unsworth, you know, putting
enterprise front and centre and serving the people. So I really
like to say thank you
for your time this evening and a member of the council will be in touch with an outcome in due course.