Children's Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Tuesday 8 October 2024, 7:30pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

Children's Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Tuesday, 8th October 2024 at 7:30pm 

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  1. Webcast Finished

Thank you.
Everybody welcome to this children's committee.
It seems like we haven't had one for a long time.
I think it was April, the last one.
We were way late in between.
But welcome everyone.
I'm Councillor Sheila Boswell and I'm the chair of the children's committee.
We have some formalities that we have to go through in all these committees,
so I'm going to run through that and then we will get to the first item on the agenda.
So members of the committee, I will now call your names in alphabetical order.
Councillor Burchill.
Good evening.
Councillor Corner.
Good evening.
Councillor Crivelli.
Good evening.
Councillor Davies.
Good evening.
Councillor Lee.
Good evening.
Councillor Paul and welcome.
Thanks.
Good evening.
Councillor Osborne.
Hello, everybody.
And Councillor Owens.
Good evening.
This committee also has a number of co -operative members, as we know.
So I'm also welcoming Mr Anthony Langdon, who is the parent Governor representative,
Mrs. Irene Wolfson -Holm from the Southwark Diocese Board of Education, Church of England,
and Ms. Nabilah Haroon.
Welcome all.
And I would also like to welcome the cabinet member for children, Councillor Kate Stock.
Good evening, everybody.
Good to be here and welcome to our guests as well.
We've had apologies for absence from Mrs. Angela Cox.
And Counselor Apps may be joining us online.
She's unwell.
I don't have apologies from her at the moment.
There are many offices present and they will introduce themselves
when they address the committee.
So it is my absolute pleasure to welcome you
to this committee this evening and filled with immense joy and optimism, especially
as we welcome at this time of year our children back to school for another year of learning
and growth. The time of year is always special as it marks the beginning of new adventures,
friendships, and opportunities for all our children and young people in the academic
year ahead. I am excited to have attended last week the opening of the Council's second
family hub in Roehampton, an area of much need. It's part of the Council's continued
commitment to deliver more accessible and integrated services to all our residents and
And this Sure Start inspired holistic wraparound approach will support local people to seek
help and advice quicker and earlier, very strong on prevention, enabling us to help
more families with issues they are facing.
And we look forward to hearing more about this new Harbor to Later Committee.
We also acknowledge National Kinship Week, which it is this week, very important, and
Black History Month.
So National Kinship Week is a time
to honor and recognize the incredible contributions
of kinship carers.
I sit on the fostering panel, and I
know what amazing work they do here in Wandsworth.
They are unsung heroes who step in
to provide love, stability, and support to our children
when they need it most.
And their commitment is truly inspiring.
and we are grateful to them all.
Black History Month is another important occasion
that we're proud to celebrate.
It's time to reflect on the rich history, culture,
and achievements of black individuals and communities.
By acknowledging and learning from the past,
we can build on a more inclusive
and equitable future for us all
and take this opportunity to educate ourselves,
celebrate diversity and continue to strive for justice and equality.
And tonight as we discuss the reports in front of us, I think it's important to remember
that the strength lies in our shared commitment to the well -being of all our children and
together we can create an environment where every child feels value supported and empowered
to reach their full potential.
And that is very much the working of this committee.
Thank you.
We can now go to agenda items.
Declarations of interest.

1 Declarations of Interest

Are there any declarations either pre -cuniary, or non -registrable?
Thank you.
Co -operative member of the diocesan board of education, I have some sort of interest
in part five about the construction of the primary school.
Thank you.
Any more?
No.
Co -opted members on voting, remind you that you may vote on the paper this evening because
it is an education function.
So you may vote on that.
And that is actually the only paper for decision this evening.

2 Minutes, 18th April 2024

The minutes of the previous meeting, are they agreed?
Yes, thank you.
So we can go to our first paper, which is the Youth Council and the Youth Mayor, paper

3 Youth Council and Youth Mayor (Paper No. 24-262)

number 24 to 262.
and I'm very happy, we are very happy to welcome Faba, our Deputy Youth Mayor and members from our Youth Council that we have here,
Yousif, Claudia and Eloise. And our Youth Mayor, Millie Quinn, actually she couldn't be here tonight but she has recorded a video which will be shown later.
I think at this point I'd like to hand over to favor to
Tell us about the the work of the council
Thank you
I'm pleased to present our report on the role of the youth mayor within our community
The role serves as an amazing opportunity for young people to greatly enhance youth engagement and representation within the senior
operations within the council. The youth mayor position serves as a vital link
between young people and the council, fostering a great sense of civic
responsibility among young people in the local community, providing a platform to
voice our concerns and contributing to strategies benefiting young people and
the wider community. The role of the youth mayor enables young people to have
their voice heard by senior leaders, access for formal professional
environments, building self -esteem and confidence, supporting young people and the local community.
Our youth council members also get to attend amazing events and be involved in projects
that benefit young people and the local community.
We feel so personally connected to this project and we hope that by the end of this report,
you will also share the same enthusiasm with us.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for that report and the way that you presented it is very, very impactful.
I think we're going to introduce Millie's video and I'm going to hand over to Hollis
Blake now who is going to introduce it.
Hollis, good evening.
Hi, good evening everyone.
I'm Hollis Blake.
I'm the Service Manager for the Youth and Community Partnership Engagement Team.
I have a video which has been completed and presented by Millie Quinn, who is our Youth
Mayor.
We're ready to play the video, Chair.
Apologies everybody tech letting us down there.
Such a shame as Millie had done a wonderful video.
We may be able to get it back later but we need to carry on.
On point of order, might we be able to get it put on YouTube or sent around via email to committee members?
Yes, if we can't get it up tonight. Absolutely, thank you for that suggestion, Councillor Corner.
Hollis, I don't know whether you would like to do an introduction or take some questions or Faber might like to as well.
We could use our time that way.
We can certainly do that, Chair.
First off, I would like to say a big thank you to Faber and Millie.
It's unfortunate we haven't seen Millie's videos of yet, but she gives us a good glimpse
and Faber's given us a glimpse into the role of a youth mayor and deputy youth mayor, and
also on the workings of the youth council as well.
Our young people are really the heart and soul of the youth council and the youth mayor
project as well.
They're the ones leading and driving the changes within the Youth Council.
They have played a big part in the development of the Youth Council this year, and they've
played a part in increasing the membership of the Youth Council by 42 percent this year.
They have used their networks to promote, to encourage and amplify the voice of young
people across the borough.
and they have highlighted a number of issues that they have had an input into this year,
including the violence against women and girls, the cost of living, education and inclusion,
and also an input into the approach to play within the borough.
I'm really grateful that we've got Claudia, Eloise, Faber and Yousaf here,
I am also really grateful
that we have got the project manager
for the youth council
and youth mayor team
and that is
Kezia Gordon.
I am really grateful that you have invited us here
and invited young people here
so they have this opportunity
to speak directly
to people who have power
and the key decision makers
within the local authority as well.
We will open up to questions
and invite questions
and the youth council members
and the deputy mayor and the two officers will answer your questions.
Thank you very much Hollis. Yep, Councillor David.
Thank you so much for coming here. I'm interested in, I mean you represent the
voices of all children and young people across the borough and thank you for that.
What kind of things can you do to make sure that you are reflecting the issues and the
concerns of all children and young people, so girls, boys, young children, different
groupings of them as well?
I'll open that up to the members of the Youth Council.
Are you okay?
Thank you for the question.
Well, first thing I wanted to say is that we've used the contacts that we have within
our school to promote and canvas opportunities for young people.
An example that we have done earlier this year was a financial literacy event that was
organized by young people and had a pretty good time out.
In other ways by using social media and other forms
of communicating with young people
in order to get their opinion and input.
And also future plans of ours
to further increase engagement would be
to take youth council around the borough and the community
to actually enact some outreach.
so in it for example visiting youth clubs and communities such as the DeVos
Club which was an event we attended the other week which was pretty good
councillor corner Thank You chair and thanks again to all youth council
members for being here today I just wondered if you could provide for the
committee an overview of how you got involved in the Youth Council, how you heard about it,
how you came to be appointed or elected to it, what you had to do to get there and what advice
you would give to your fellow young people across the borough about how to get involved and play
such a positive impact in the lives of young people in the borough. Thanks for the question.
Personally I heard about the Youth Council through a friend of mine joining her local boroughs Youth
Council and I thought I would like to join my local bars as well. I strongly advise it
to a lot of young people because I've joined quite late so I would really encourage it
to younger people to join as well because it's really something, it's very informative,
it's very interesting and you get to meet people very like -minded like yourself too
among the Youth Council. Personally, I think I've learned a lot from the people around
I've learned a lot about everyone's different opinions, everyone's different backgrounds,
and I think I would highly recommend it to other people like myself to join.
Thank you.
Councillor Burchell, I think I saw, and then Councillor Crivelli.
Yes, thank you so much for coming to see us today and telling us about what you're doing.
I'm interested.
Faber has told us that she found out about it through a friend.
And it's interesting to know how you're finding out about it and how you are promoting it
to other people.
And this is probably a question to the officers.
Are you going to all schools and sports clubs, Girl Guides, Scouts?
Are you going to all young people?
Hello, hi. Thank you for the question.
In terms of how young people would apply, they would contact me directly
and we would have a conversation about their application and why they'd like to join
and they'd come along. So in terms of joining, it's open to everyone.
And we do need to increase our reach in schools, definitely.
And that's something that we're working on.
At the moment, our main reach, we'd say, is social media,
would we say, and word of mouth.
And at the moment, we've got, what, 31 members.
So it's quite a large increase over a short space of time.
So even though we haven't gone out full force
in terms of social media and all of the schools at the moment,
we are still at full capacity in terms of membership.
So as Faber mentioned about in terms of recruiting younger members, which is something we definitely want,
we want a fair representation of, you know, in terms of the schools in the borough as well.
So these are all things that we are
planning to do and increase
the work on.
Thank you very much.
Councillor Cravene, I think you were...
Hi, yes, we've also
started creating a video to promote the Youth Council.
We've had different points where we've been shooting
the videos, specifically like the tuting
and club injunction to where most people come from
in the Youth Council.
Apologies, does anyone else want to contribute
from the Youth Council on that before I go
to Councillor Crivelli?
Councillor Crivelli, I think you were next.
Thanks.
You've already touched upon this a bit,
I mean, Faber sort of answered this a bit,
but I just wanted to develop it a little bit.
Claudia talked about increased engagement.
I mean, imagine I was a young person in Wandsworth,
and I know that takes a bit of a stretch of the imagination,
but imagine I was, okay?
How would you sell the Youth Council to me?
What are the positive things that you would say,
listen, you've got to get involved in this because?
I'd say primarily, I mean a big selling point people like to go to is the snacks, but beyond
that for me I find a personal selling point to be the diversity of both background and opinion and
perspective that I find really refreshing about the Youth Council. You really feel a great sense
of community. As a member of the council who doesn't go to school in the borough but rather
lives here, I think it's a great way of connecting with the community that I otherwise wouldn't
have the chance to. I think those are the main selling points. And also, as Faber said,
you really are, it's great for learning about politics, public policy and kind of hearing
the opinions of people around you on those same subjects. So, yeah.
I think young people naturally have interest in politics, especially in the current political
climate.
And I feel like with Youth Council, young people are really given the opportunity to
get involved in local politics.
I think Councillor Osborne was next and then Councillor Corner and then Councillor
Owens.
Yeah okay, can I thank you for the presentation and everything and can I ask
a favor and and the rest of the team looking at this from the point of view
of Wandsworth Council for the rest of the year and indeed for that matter beyond,
what do you think we should make a priority of that would be of use and
helpful for the young people in the Youth Council? And do feel free to put a
little bit of pressure on us here when you think about what our priorities
ought to be.
I think personally increasing dialogue between the Youth Council and the main council would
be an excellent idea because while we are affiliated with the main council, we actually
have very little connection and involvement and dialogue with the main council.
So it feels somewhat separated when we are on the same kind of team working towards the
goals so I think something we would appreciate seeing is slightly more
involvement and dialogue between the two
Councillor corner I think and then council pool
Yes.
I also think maybe trust as well, to trust us so that we truly understand what the youth
actually wants.
I mean, we are young, and also the fact that we chose to come to the Youth Council to kind
of relate the message of what the youth in Wandsworth want.
Okay, I do apologize to the Youth Council to keep cutting.
This is so new for us and it's so wonderful to have you here.
It's exactly the sort of thing that we should have in this duffy old town hall.
but I'm sorry if I keep not going to you,
it's a new format.
So now, Councillor Corner and then Councillor Paul
with your question.
Thank you, and just building on Councillor Osborne's
question there, on page six of the report back
from the meeting, we've got the youth mayor's priorities
and the deputy youth mayor's priorities,
so it's great to read them and see that they are very
similar or the same as a lot of topics we discuss
around this table quite a lot.
Could I just ask what the process was for choosing those priorities?
How much support did you get from the council to develop those priorities?
And what would success look like to you for your top priority as deputy mayor or youth mayor?
So in regards to the process, anyone was really allowed to apply for youth mayor
and you were voted by your fellow youth council members.
I gave him a second.
In regards to my priorities,
we were kind of given a,
not really a list, but sort of like suggestions
of the main focuses in Wandsworth
and were kind of able to develop
what we thought was most personal to us.
I'm not sure if you've seen,
but in my manifesto at least,
I focus most on mental health and wellbeing
of the young people and financial literacy and employment.
And so, yeah, those are quite like personal to me
and I picked them because it is kind of like
a growing problem in our borough to not have
like a lot of young people finding work experience,
for example, unless you have a friend
or your parents have a friend.
and a lot of the mental health services
are kind of demonized by a lot of young people
because they're not seeing the best outcome.
For example, a lot of people my age
don't really like seeing cams or those kind of services
and would prefer a more alternative version
instead of those kind of services.
So yeah, that's why I focused on them a lot.
I'm so sorry, what was your last question?
Just very briefly, what would success look like for perhaps your top priority?
For me, success would just look like young people being confident in taking leadership roles.
I know a lot of young people, like for example, this youth mayor scheme is quite new to me and
to a lot of young people I don't even know existed and it is the first time that we've done it.
and I would like other people that would look like me
or like who would look up to me in some sort of way
to feel like they can take a role like this
because it is made for them and it's important
like we're seeing here now, we need more young people
taking a role of initiative into making decisions
for their future, thank you.
Can I just add as well from an officer's perspective
as well, in terms of support for the youth mayor
and deputy there as well.
We're very aware and very conscious that these are,
they are still young people and they do need support
around them to help them to engage with processes like this
and also to continue that process of engaging
with their peers as well.
They also receive a significant amount of support
from their peers within the Youth Council as well,
so they're all members of the Youth Council
and the rest of the Youth Council do support them
in all of their projects going forward as well.
So there is that ongoing support,
both from their peers, from council officers,
and if we feel that there is additional support
that needs to be brought in, then we can arrange that.
Do any of the young people want to contribute on that
before I go to the next question?
No, Councillor Paul, I think you were next,
and then Councillor O 'Neill.
Thank you. I think this question is really for the officers.
Just expanding the representation and visibility of the Youth Council
is essential to meet the Council, our mission in terms of being a listening council.
I'm just wondering what other strategies, because you spoke about,
like the membership at the moment is like 33, was it 33 you mentioned?
Yeah, it's just what are the other strategies you have to encourage young people to participate?
Have you got kind of longer -term strategies in addition to what the members mentioned?
And thank you for your presentation, I think.
Hi, thank you.
So as the members have mentioned previously, the plan is for us to hold sessions within
a lot of the youth groups, spaces where young people are within the borough.
For whatever reason, there are young people who cannot join the Youth Council either because
of where it's located or their availability.
So if we're out in the community and holding our sessions
within those areas, that gives young people an opportunity,
number one, to see what the youth council is about
and see that they can join, and also
ensuring that we're capturing their voices
and hopefully increasing our representation
across the borough.
Quick part two.
Just about numbers, because you mentioned 33.
I was just wondering if there is a limitation in terms
of how many people can take part.
Well, as I said, we're at maximum capacity at the moment.
But during our sessions, for whatever reason,
not every young person can attend.
So there's always, I've not been in a position
where I've said, OK, no, you can't join at the moment.
So yeah, I mean, depending on the space that we have,
at the moment, we're managing fine
with about 30 -odd young people.
But as I said, young people are not
going to be attending every session.
Counselor Owens.
Thank you for your excellent presentation and comments.
I did have a question for the officers again about the reach,
but I was actually very interested in something
Faber said in terms of work experience,
because it strikes me that many of the schools
across the borough, and I have experience
with this because I have two children and the ones
with state school your sort of age,
that often what happens with work experiences
is up to the children.
And frequently, there are children.
We often get messages about this as parents
who don't have any work experience at all.
And they actually have to go and sit in the library for a week
or two at the end of the school term.
And I was very interested in perhaps the work
that the youth council could do to improve that,
and perhaps how, obviously, there
needs to be more engagement with schools around the borough.
But at the same time, I was wondering,
are the schools that you're engaging with,
are they mainly the community schools,
or are they the academies as well?
and also it is interesting that
the school is out of school, out of
the borough.
You must have come into the youth council
a different route.
Thank you.
Yes.
The range of schools that we engage with
currently tend to be quite traditional
schools that have always engaged with
the youth council.
I think that is what Claudia was referring
to earlier about how
the promotion is,
a lot of it is word of mouth
and other young people
talking to other young people.
and that's one of the best ways of recruiting
to the Youth Council.
We're very aware that actually there are
certain other schools that we're not getting
that reach into, and that's where we, again,
we will target our recruitment,
and we'll target our marketing to try and reach
some of those schools where we're not getting
those young peoples coming from there.
But also, as Keziah mentioned about actually taking
the Youth Council to the different community,
and different parts of the community as well.
It can be quite difficult traveling into one set place
within the local priorities,
so I think it's really important that we do get out
and start to listen to the young people
wherever they are within their communities.
Thank you very much, Hollis.
So I think we've had about half an hour on this,
so if there are any more questions,
or Councillor Stott, did you want to say something?
I know you want to say something just on the tech there.
We are going to share Millie's video with everybody after the meeting.
It's a shame that that happened.
Councillor Stock, do you want to say a few words?
Yes, Chair, thank you very much.
I just wanted to say for my part, just thank you to the youth mayor, the deputy youth mayor
and members of the youth council and the participation team for coming along tonight.
I do think it's so important that you have a seat at the table
with members of the
Council and to express as you have so ably tonight the things that you really care about and I definitely
Hear that I think the saying goes, you know, not nothing about us without us and I hope we can continue to do that
I think we've made some strides today and I hope that we continue to do that into the future
You know, we are committed to being a listening council. I don't have all the answers
I don't think each of us have all the answers. We all are a product of our own experience
So it's really important to me that all over the council, not just in the Children's Directorate,
we are listening to your experiences and I really take on board the points you've made
about how we can further embed the Youth Council into the council.
I think I've had some ideas about that that I'm hoping might come out soon and really
kind of take that forward.
And the point that's made about your own experience about the importance of representation and
I'm really pleased that we've achieved growth so far, but I hope that the Youth Council will grow and the Youth Mayor initiative will
Will further grow into the future so thank you
Thank you so much the young people for coming and to those in the participation team as well
I look forward to seeing you again soon
Thank you so members of the committee this report is for information
So I'm asking you to note the report do we note the report?
Thank you. Thank you
So I think that we now move on to the next agenda item.
I hope you all enjoyed that.
So we can now move to the next paper, which is supporting children and families affected by domestic abuse.
A very different area to be looking at from where we've just been with the young people, but very, very important.
So members, we have the immense privilege to have a survivor of domestic abuse here to speak to us this evening.
Now, in order to do so and protect their anonymity, a resolution needs to be passed to exclude
the press and public and stop the webcast.
So what I'm going to do is I'm going to make a proposal and then I'll ask for a seconder.
So I propose that under section 100A4 of the Local Government Act 1972, members of the
public and press be excluded from the meeting whilst we hear from the parent because it
is likely that exempt information would be disclosed to them if they were present and
it is considered that the public interest in maintaining the exemption outweighs the
public interest in disclosing the information.
Let me ask for a second.
Point of order.
Supportive of this in principle, but if the committee wants to make recommendations for
the executive on the paper, could that be heard in open session after the presentation?
Yes, I confirm that yes, we can do that.
Thank you, everybody.
So that is agreed.
I now need to check that the webcast has been stopped.
If you could confirm that for me.
Can you confirm that we're now back on broadcast?
We've restarted.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
So we just need to finish up on that last paper
and I need to ask the committee to note the report.
We note the report, thank you.
So we move to the next paper,
which is design and construction of the primary school
and community facility building at 9 Elms Battersea,
paper number 24 to 264.
And I'm actually going to hand over to Anna Popovici
at this point to introduce this paper.
Thank you, Chair, and actually thank you to everyone
for allowing us a bit of a break
between the two very distinct yet very important items
that we've been discussing because I really want to change the tone slightly and potentially
the mood music in the room for this item because this paper, Councillors and colleagues, talks
about four different themes in my view. The first is the ambition of this Council to actually
do well for all its children. The second theme is the theme of aspiration, you know, thinking
about all children, but particularly those in most difficult circumstances, and those
with special educational needs and disability. This paper also talks to an alliance, an alliance
and a partnership that we've been able to get from strength to strength, and I'm looking
at the head teacher across the room when I'm saying that, and an amazing partnership with
an education provider that's very close to our hearts that makes this possible. And the
The fourth theme is the theme of architecture,
because we want to think green, we want to think big,
we want to think sustainable in terms
of what this council wishes to build
for our local communities.
And I'm really privileged to be talking to this paper.
I'm not going to do much of the talking,
actually, because there's other people in the room that
will do that.
And with that in mind, I am deeply honored
to actually have and welcome Sarah Colimore, the head
teacher of St. George's into this room, into this environment. And before I hand
over to her, if I might pay tribute to decades of dedication, to decades of
commitment to ones for children. You know, you've given those children tools for
lives and I've seen them coming back time and again even later on as
accomplished adults now, you know, to pay tribute to what you've done. And I know
All the commitment is still there and you're roaring to go again into a new space.
So Chair, with your permission, can I please bring in our lovely Sarah Colimo at this point?
Thank you.
Thank you, really lovely to be here.
I would just like to say genuinely what a privilege it is to be sitting here talking about the potential of the new school.
I think I have worked in my school for 21 years and came to Wandsworth, you know
2003 the brighter borough Brendan Ryan had all of the marketing to bring us to Wandsworth and it really has been an absolute
privilege of my life and career to work in Patmore estate with the families that we serve at st. George's and
the opportunity
to do that bigger and more and bring communities together is a real aspiration
for us. About ten years ago my predecessor and I sat and talked about
the new school when it was first mentioned and you know we sat there and
said we've got to get involved in this somehow because we've got to bring those
communities together and for us we feel that the knowledge we've got from our
20 years in the job where we are. And you know, if you imagine sitting in my
office in ST George's impact more and stays 20 years ago, there's nothing

4 Supporting Children and Families Affected by Domestic Abuse (Paper No. 24-263)

around ST George's absolutely nothing. And now, you know, to drive in every
morning and see, you know, the development and the opportunity. And I
think the crucial thing for me is that that opportunity is for our Children as
well, because it would be so easy for that not to be the case. And I think
the potential to bring communities together.
The community center is just such a huge opportunity
to do the work you've been hearing about all night
with communities together, supporting families, family
hubs.
And it's just really exciting.
Social emotional mental health is an absolute passion of mine.
And working with children in a trauma -informed way
is the way forward.
And we've heard that this evening.
So to be able to expand and have a base that
supports children with those needs is a really exciting step forward for St.
George's. I mentioned in the paper it's 200 years in 2026 since St. George's has
been on the site and it feels like a really wonderful opportunity to take
St. George's with the council forward together and you know the partnership
has been fantastic so far and we are genuinely excited to work with you to
bring this about for the children in Nine Elms, Patmore Estate, Queenstown, all
all those wards that sit around the new development.
So, thank you.
Thank you very much.
That was very moving to hear, and I think all of us share your passion for bringing those communities together.
So, so important.
Right, to questions.

4 Supporting Children and Families Affected by Domestic Abuse (Paper No. 24-263)

Councillor Corner, I can see, and Councillor Paul.
Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Ms. Collinmore,

4 Supporting Children and Families Affected by Domestic Abuse (Paper No. 24-263)

for coming to the committee and just explaining a bit
about how the new school proposal
and also the Nine Elms opportunity area
and regeneration as a whole is actually providing
opportunities for the children and the community
that you serve.
Speaking briefly as a Nine Elms Councillor,
I'm delighted that this school is going ahead

5 Design and Construction of the Primary School and Community Facility Building at Nine Elms, Battersea (Paper No. 24-264)

and it's really good to see that there's progress in that regard.
But I have to say, I'm very, I do have concerns about this 22 .4 million pound overspend
that we are being asked to approve as a committee
because it seems that there are no details included in the report on why that overspend has occurred.
For example, there are no, from what we can see,
specification details that might justify the increase in expenditure required or
anything really on how there will be 22 .4 million pound of additional value
delivered as a result of this decision. Could we please get an update on why
this amount of money is required and also could could we get some commentary
on why the estimates originally were so far out.
Because we've known that this bill would be built
for a number of years now,
so we know about the high inflation environment
and that could have been accounted for previously.
Also, this isn't the first time this committee
has been asked to approve additional money
for kind of capital projects.
Is there a systematic issue here with the estimates
that are being produced for projects of this nature.
Mr. Halleck, if you'd like to answer that.
Yeah, I'll take that one.
I think as you said, we did cover quite a lot of this
in the Broadwater paddock build,
and it's true for this project as well.
Inflation has been particularly high in the last three years,
probably the highest in over 20 years,
and that's acute in the construction industry.
I think it just
exceeded all expectations.
There was also a little bit of
hopefulness in some of the forecasting
possibly, but there was a lot of
work done with the school, with Sarah
and the team around specification
and just refining that.
But do remember, for this money we are getting
a community provision, we are getting
the SEND base, we are getting a school.
If we compare it to some of the bills that we did
10 years ago or so,
Green Mead, Ronald Ross,
take out inflation, you're not talking too much different
looking at just the school element,
at probably 30 million or so.
The same base itself has a higher return on investment
from a revenue point of view, so from that perspective,
as the paper says, it covers a good portion
in quite a quick period.
I don't think in the past we've had a necessary
prior to this inflationary period,
forecasting these projects wasn't a problem,
so I don't foresee it being one into the future
as we move into lower inflation.
Tight labor markets are still a bit of an issue.
So just a quick follow up on that.
So is it really the case that inflation,
and I know that inflation in the construction industry
has been particularly acute,
inflation, is it really the case that inflation
can account for a 50 % increase in the cost of this project?
And I appreciate the point about the wider community
assets that are being produced, the sports pitch and so on.
Very supportive of those, but I believe they've always
been in scope for this project.
So why is the overspend so massive?
And even if it is about inflation predominantly,
can we not see kind of a breakdown into the other factors
that are driving this?
So I'd say predominantly inflation, but yes,
Some of it is specifications to support the school.
There were some concerns that Sarah had.
We worked with on a colonnade and so on,
and some extra areas which we refined,
which did cost additional money.
But the majority will be inflation.
I don't know what the committee wants to agree to.
Kate, we could give more detail.
Yeah, happy for the detail of the product
should be shared with all members of the committee. Yes, this project went to planning back in
2021 and some of the specification is driven by some of the requirements of a building
within nine hours as well. And I think it's fair to say that that is also driving some
of the cost that's been within the scheme for a long time.
Okay, I have Councillor Paul next, then Ms Haroon, and then Councillor Osborne, Councillor
Burchill and Councillor Owens.
So, Councillor Paul.
Thank you.
Just going back to the opportunities that you had mentioned, I was just wondering whether,
But what you see as what these new opportunities will be for the pupils and parents, if you
can just articulate that a bit more, please.
Yeah, definitely.
So I think within the development, we've already seen opportunities for parents with work.
And we have seen a lot of our parents getting into work within the new development.
I think for children, it's about allowing them to access a wider world than Patmore
being able to see that they are entitled to go into those spaces and use those spaces.
I think the building will be fabulous for them and I think it's really important that our children see they are entitled to be in amazing spaces.
I also think potentially bringing two different communities together
provides lots of opportunities earlier when you were talking about work experience.
You know, there was things where we're just growing a community that's wider, that children
can then have access and opportunity to mix in with other people, to find in different
opportunities within friendship groups, and I just feel that it's crucial to bring the
communities together, and that in itself is going to be an opportunity to access the world
together as opposed to two separate sides of the street.
Thank you.
Actually, I have the same questions that Matthew asked.
We being asked to approve something that is material enough to be almost a quarter of
the children services budget and yet have been given absolutely no detail about it.
So, I think until this committee is provided the respect it deserves by being provided
with all the details necessary in order to actually scrutinize this properly, we shouldn't
approve it.
Thank you.
So, that was a statement.
You don't have a question there.
Thank you very much.
Councillor Osborne was next I think then Councillor Burchill then Councillor...
Yeah I don't really, I take the point that that's being made by the
officers that that inflation is going to be a major contributor to some of the
cost on all this but actually I don't hear that so much when I'm listening to
the presentation what I hear is a holistic approach to what's being
provided for the community, a growing community, in Nine Elms.
Not just the community facility, but the provision of the Mooga
on the roof, and the location of it,
and the folding into it of an already successful school.
All of these things are going to drive forward
the cost and the expense for the project.
And I'm sure nobody anywhere around the table surely is saying that we don't want this school
in Nine Elms.
And so I think that, you know, we've got to sit back and take a considered approach to
what's going on here and be careful in how we assess the cost and the contribution of
the school to a growing community in Nine Elms.
That is vitally important.
The other thing that I'm interested in with this is the special educational needs and
disability base in the school.
It's been said that that's going to accrue funds as well, but I wonder if the officers
are in a position to give us, as Councillor Stock was suggesting, a bit more detail on
and what might be accruing as a result of that,
and other facilities in this school.
I'll take the first part.
So I think the differential in the last three years
between independent placements and our local provision,
obviously doing the best for children, keeping them local,
and actually now an even more,
a larger financial benefit for every single place
that we produce or create locally.
So when I used to contribute to these papers,
I write them, we're talking 30 ,000 differential.
Now every single place there's 45 to 60 ,000.
Needs have become more complex as well,
which has contributed.
So those 16 places could save us
up to a million pounds a year.
Five years is five million, 10 years is 10 million.
you very quickly get your differential back.
But members also remember this budget was set in 2014 at $45 million.
It was reassessed at committee, but a lot has happened since 21 when it comes to inflation
and so on, and the spec.
Councillor Burchill, I think I had next, then Councillor Owens, then Councillor Leary.
Thank you very much.
I've got three points.
The first of it is the cost of the building, but it's not all for the school, it's partly
for the community.
So why is all the money coming out of education?
Well, I mean, it looks as if it's coming out of the education pot.
I know some of it will be coming from Sill.
Okay, so it's coming from Sill, but...
It is good, but surely we should be putting some of the cost nominally thought of as community
and some as education, because it's not all education.
Okay, so that's just something for you to think about, Councillor Osbourne, because
you're obviously thinking about it.
That's kind of you.
I think I've been not having a to and fro across the table because it will get completely
out of order.
Mr. Halleck, do you want to answer what Councillor Burchell's just asked?
I just want to clarify, so it's DFSOR, developer funded entirely, so this money, the entire building,
including the community provision and the SEND base, is all developer funded, all 77 million.
Thank you very much for clarifying that. The children, the 16 children that we're going to
I've been making places for. I am all in favor of this.
I think it is really a very good plan to have as many children as possible
educated near home. But where are these children being
educated at the moment at such great cost?
I mean, are there any primary school children?
These are little children. Where are they being educated at the moment?
Well I mean obviously we've got to think about a lot of this is to do with planning for the
future because the other thing is that these are, some of this is thinking about, you know,
we've done our reviews in terms of what our needs are, so in terms of our sense efficiency
plan we're looking at what's sort of coming through the system from early years in terms
of that need and we are seeing SEMH as a significant need in nurseries.
So we're almost future proofing ourselves
in terms of where those children are going to go.
Because the other thing is, if we don't have these bases,
and SEMH is one of the areas where we have identified
that there is a gap, if we don't have bases for them,
the likelihood is they will go into specialist provision,
which is more expensive.
And then once we fill those specialist provisions,
then we are moving into the realms
of independent settings, which, as Michael has said,
becomes very, very costly.
So as I said, as much as we're not solely thinking about the children now, we're thinking about children for the future as well.
Because the base will fill obviously from the bottom up.
We may get some children that start in some of the other years, but actually we're predominantly thinking about the children that will be coming through the system.
And as I said, at the moment there is a gap, particularly in the Battersea area around SEMH.
And I think from our perspective with St. George's,
I think one of the good things is
that Sarah's spoken very passionate about this area
of work, but also St. George's have actually developed
a kind of base within the school to support children
with SEMH, which they did themselves.
And from that, these were children working at SEND
support level.
Actually, I think you only had one EHCP that came from that.
So it just demonstrates actually the quality of the work
that the school does around SEND,
which was one of the reasons as well why we were so keen to work with St. George's,
not only on the school but the fact that we are obviously identifying an SEMH base in the provision as well.
Thank you. But we haven't got these children at provision outside the borough at the moment?
They may well be. I mean, we may have children. So the idea is...
The thing is it's difficult because obviously once children are in the provision outside of the borough,
you wouldn't necessarily want to move them. That's not the kind of thing.
As I said, what we are thinking about is the future.
So the children coming through the system,
they will be the ones that we can then keep locally.
Thank you for your scrutiny, Councillor Burchell.
I think it was Councillor Owen's next, then Councillor Lee.
Thank you very much.
It was very clear.
Thank you.
Just a couple of points.
I agree on the base for disadvantaged children
in that part of Battersea, mainly because I
was governor and chair of a school for over a decade that
wanted a base in that part of Battersea and didn't get one.
But the other point I was going to make
was just on the children in the borough and the numbers,
et cetera, and obviously this is obviously an existing school
moving to a different site.
But just before we went into Purda
at the beginning of the year, we saw
a chart that showed that the only school in the borough that
had filled every place at reception
was Belleville Primary School.
And obviously, things have changed quite dramatically
in recent years with 27 % of places not filled across Wonsworth schools.
And I know because my own children have attended Belleville Primary School that lots of children
actually do come from the Nine Alms area.
Are you expecting that to change, obviously with the new facility, but also, I mean, there
will be children, of course, in Lambeth for whom it will be very easy to get to the school.
And I'm just wondering your thoughts on that in terms of the fact that we've only actually
had one school in the last year that filled every place in reception.
Thank you.
I think, I mean, to be perfectly honest, again,
St. George's is a full one form entry school at the moment,
and the plan is that when they move across,
they will move across probably initially
as a one form entry school,
and then will continue to fill as the demand increases,
which we hope it will.
Like you said, we might look to attract children
from Lambeth.
Similarly, the developments in the area
hopefully will yield children as well.
That is the plan.
But at the moment, as I said, we aren't looking at the school
to necessarily fill right from the outset,
but would have the capacity to do so.
Councillor Lee, and then Mr Langdon.
Thank you, Sarah, for coming to meet with us today.
And I wanted to ask, in the paper,
it talks about the community engagement and feedback
that we receive or that you received and I wanted to ask a bit more
specifically about the parents and children and staff at St. George's and
and how they've sort of taken the news and what feedback you've got from them.
Yeah so positive, overwhelmingly positive. We've had some very immediate questions
about uniform changes, time changes, parking, those kind of very practical things from parents.
Initially when we showed the pictures, the children were very excited that they thought
it was a secondary school and they were going to be able to stay at St. George's until they
were 16 or 18, which, you know, so very excited, children very excited about playgrounds on
the roof.
So lots of positives and lots of staff very excited about staying.
And obviously, retention can be really challenging
in London schools.
And lots of staff saying, we want to be in the new site,
we want to work in the base as well
and have that different experience.
So overwhelmingly positive.
One question about parking,
that we might have to move schools
because we can't park near it,
but genuinely a really positive response from everybody.
Mr Langdon.
Thank you.
I think this might be a question for officers if that's okay.
The issue with Section 106 money is that it's money in search of ideas rather than ideas
or evidence -based policy in search of money.
So how was this project identified as the best use of Section 106 funding?
What else was on the table and was not considered?
That might take you outside your remit a bit, Michael, sorry.
I know as part of the development, I will go into what I know, that was a requirement
to build a school.
Obviously, this has been going on for well over a decade.
So part of the agreement with the developers is that a school is delivered and therefore
we need to deliver and that needs to have a community provision.
And so there is the risk that if we don't deliver the school, developers could ask for
their money back.
We're going to give the best flashy, lovely school, aren't we?
so it counts the Davies next and then I can see councilor Covelli and then
councilor corner yes so we were thinking about yet a future briefing and you know
and it created in school with this opportunity for otherwise a community
creative drive with a sound base a marker community park a state -of -the -art
building and bringing different communities together.
Gosh, that sounds very, very attractive, doesn't it?
But yeah, so in terms of future proofing,
I guess some of this is about the population projections
as well in 9 -LMS.
We know this current school population,
and we know about those falling roles and some gaps
in schools.
But then we've also got all of those small family
starter flats coming up and yeah so how much of that is a fact of the importance
of having a school here? Yeah I mean I think I've said it I think that you know
the the reality is when when I think when I started you know we we balanced
out the position of falling roles and a new school and you speak to any local
authority and if you've got a new area with properties being built you know a
school is the heart of the community.
And if we didn't have a school in that community,
we're missing an opportunity there.
And I think we assessed it and recognized that actually
building a brand new school, given falling roles,
was not viable.
And therefore we looked at other alternatives,
and that's when we engaged in the conversation about,
let's bring a local school on board and in,
and really think about that unification of communities,
which for me is very exciting.
I'm very much about how can we give all children access
to all opportunities that the area brings
and open their eyes to possibilities.
That for me is so exciting for children to actually step across
and just see iconic buildings and have a fantastic school
that's got a community space that they can share.
I think the other thing for me that is great
is that St. George's School will benefit
and their communities will, as will other children that
can come.
But one of the things that I spoke about
was with other heads.
Because obviously, when we said about building a new school,
that with falling rolls, there was comments about, OK,
what does this mean?
But actually, when we explained it, we said,
this is how it's going to work and this
is what we're going to do.
other heads were really excited about the opportunities,
it would afford to them as well.
So it doesn't just sit with St. George's,
but it brings such a, you know,
bringing together of a number of schools,
because the space is so multifaceted that so many schools
will be able to benefit from this opportunity,
and so many children.
So that's, for me, is what's really exciting about it.
Thank you, Miss van Rola.
I have got Councillor Crivelli, then Councillor Corner.
I just wanted to say, you know, it does look like an exciting opportunity and to have an
additional base for 16 children with special needs, that is to be very much welcomed and
I don't think anyone dispute, you know, from a financial point of view, the savings that
will be made year on year is something that is really commendable and, you know, to have
the foresight to be able to make this sort of plan is really great.
we'll be able to make that sort of savings while at the same time having this amazing
new base. I do just think that the public would expect us to be critical and analyse
with great scrutiny the additional 22 .4 million that we're being asked to commit to. And correct
me if I'm wrong when I draw a parallel between the decision we made on Broadwaters. My recollection
was that we were given quite a bit of statistical data about the increased cost.
There was graphs which made it very clear why these costs had been incurred and why
there was this difference between the initial project figure and why there was this new
project figure.
Not only did it make it easy for us to understand and to prove the increased cost, it also made
it easy for us to justify why we'd arrived at that decision.
So if we could have that breakdown, I do think it assists us in making that decision.
I appreciate you did make a comment there, Mr. Halleck, about the original figure and
you said you thought it might have been partly derived from hopefulness.
It does rather give the impression, doesn't it, that it's an optimistic figure for the
initial project and perhaps it's an optimistic figure that's maybe been sort of made optimistic
on the hope that the Council would approve the initial project?
I think what I meant, hopefulness, was more about not anticipating inflation to have such
a big impact.
I don't think any of us can see the future.
So we're all, even the Bank of England with lots and lots of economists, undershoot, overshoot.
So there's that.
But yes, it was a lot of money, just like you share your concerns, so are we.
With the mount and we're trying everything we could to keep it within
budget
As that budget became ever -increasing for a period of time it is now set in stone
We are going to deliver to the 677 million
And it'll be a great provision
Counselors talk did you want to respond I?
Can yes
I don't know if that's the end of the discussion, but thank you, Sarah, for joining us this
evening and articulating your vision for the new school, particularly that point about
bringing the opportunity here to bring new and old communities together.
And I think that, again, there's been a shared mantra around it takes a village to raise
a child, and this school is a real opportunity.
We shouldn't keep referring to it as a school because it really is a school and community
center and I think we talk about it in the paper as a community village hub for all and
I think that's right it isn't just going to be the school, the nursery, the send hub,
which is a fantastic provision that we're going to be able to bring to Battersea, but
also kind of community space, cultural space in the foyer, leisure space, Amooga, sports
halls and kind of multi -use space for some of the community organizations that are already
working in that area and I know some of our other community organizations who work with young people, you know are very keen to see some
Greater sports facility and work has also been done to ensure that as much of the school site can be accessible to the community outside
Of school hours as well that will bring
Real value. I hear the concerns
That have been shared by councillors around
transparency in in in the numbers you know I agree no school can be built
with a with a blank check but this is really important that we deliver this
project for the community really important that we deliver it by
September 2026 and I have seen the information which accords like
councillor Crivelli was saying with the information that we've seen previously
at this committee on on Broadwater and I'm happy for that information to be be
shared but I would encourage you to support us moving forward with this
proposal collectively it seems that that's the ambition here so that this
project you know can continue quickly in order to be able to meet that target
opening date we are already doing enabling works you know to try and move
things forward but we really need to sign this contract in order to be able
to deliver for the community.
Thank you, Councillor Stock.
So this report is for decision.
Councillor Coyle.
Thank you very much.
And I really do agree with what Councillor Stock,
you just said.
This is an excellent community asset
to Councillor Osborne's point.
We should absolutely be supporting this,
building the community.
It's excellent.
I'm delighted it's going ahead, I really am.
And on the side of the table,
we don't want to stop this project going ahead.
I've been supporting it for years,
and it will really improve the sense of place within 9L.
So let's get this done.
But it is not appropriate that the committee is being asked
to approve this with such limited information.
And I did want to draw the committee's attention
to this point.
On paragraph 14, it says the revised full project cost
is 77 .4 million.
We are being asked to approve at this committee 22 .4 million.
That means that the estimated fixed cost build of 55 million
has, we've already got that money approved.
So why can't we go ahead with this
with the currently approved money
and work with the contractors to make sure
we get the best deal possible.
Now we know that we can go ahead with this school project,
building project, because yesterday the council sent out
a press release lauding the project
and saying how great it was that we were
able to make progress on it.
And I agree with what that press release said.
But it's clear that only one of two things can be true.
Either that press release was sent out two days ago in error,
and that the continuation and progress of the project is contingent on what we're being asked to approve today,
or that the press release was correct and that progress can be made,
and as per the paragraph that I've just mentioned and referenced,
that there is actually enough money in the pot for this project to continue as is at the moment,
and that this committee could take another meeting to consider all the options,
all the detail that Councillor Crivelli has asked for, the potential uses of section 106
developer levies that Mr Langan spoke about and take a more considered approach to make sure that
this project delivers not only the excellent benefits that we've heard about and that we
fully support but also value for money for this council and for the children and young people of
Councilor Stolle and George.
Just to be really clear, yes, value for money is definitely at the heart of what we're trying
to do here.
To be really clear, the entirety of this budget is being funded by developer infrastructure
levy.
There is no call on the general fund or the resource to be able to deliver it.
It is part of the Council's initiative of making developers pay.
And I think you're wrong in relation to your reference to paragraph 14 because I think
paragraph 13 makes entirely clear how much is left
of the 55, it makes clear that there's only 38 million,
.5 million left because 15 million has already been used
to acquire the land to build the site.
And as I say, we have already been starting enabling works
to build the school.
So your assumption around the remaining money left
is incorrect, that's my understanding,
but officers can correct me if I'm wrong.
Councillor Osborn, if you want to come in at this point and then we need to move to a vote.
Yeah, I was just going to say I think we need to move to take a decision.
I take the point that not everybody has got all the information they might want on the funding of this.
I mean the point is if you prepare a paper like this, it is sometimes difficult to know how much detail to go into.
and there's been an assurance from the cabinet member that there's full transparency on this.
If people want to know more, that's always possible.
So I suggest that rather than constantly hint that we should delay or stop or get in the way of this,
that instead what we ought to do is move to a decision and approve the paper, as said in the recommendations.
Thank you, Councillor Osborne. The point has also been made to me that these papers were
released over a week ago, so you could have put your concern forward at an earlier point.
No, no, no. Equally, we didn't have the pre -feed that we usually have with officers before
weekend so people weren't given sufficient time to absorb the papers.
This isn't about criticizing the project or criticizing officers. It's great that
we're progressing with this project. What we need to, and I don't accept
the point raised by Councillor Osborne, we can't just rely on an assumption
that we'll get detail that will be satisfactory after we've approved this decision.
When the administration came to power in 22 they said in their manifesto that they would open the
and allow full scrutiny. All we're doing as a committee is saying can you give us that scrutiny?
Before we approve it, Councillor Osborne, that's what we need.
No, I'm saying we should have more information before we approve the full amount of money.
We should support the project and give the project the support it needs to continue.
But before we release all of this money, which is 50 % increase on the original budget, which was
set only last year, we should exercise our right as a committee to see that information so we can be sure that young and yeah exactly and of course.
Do you have an amendment? Do you have an amendment Councillor Courtney?
No, what we want to do is we want to abstain on 2A.
We want to give our full -throated support to 2B and C because we do want the project
to go ahead.
But we need to see more detail on how it's exactly going to be funded before we can support
the additional 22 .4 million.
Thank you very much, Councillor Corner. That couldn't be clearer. I appreciate that. Thank
you. So this report is for decision. It's the only paper that's for decision this evening.
Ms Wolcenholme, I think you – I would just like to say that I will abstain on these decisions
as being a member of the diocesan board of education. I think there's too much of a
conflict of interest there.
So that's the only reason I'm abstaining.
Thank you very much, and thank you for making that clear.
So if we look at the recommendations,
which are on page 32,
and then I'll take them one by one.
So if we can look at the recommendations,
and we're looking at paragraph one, paragraph two,
the executive is recommended to at A. All those for A.
All those against.
and all those abstaining.
So paragraph 2A, that was 5, 4 and 6 abstentions.
Now moving – and no against.
and no against. So moving to paragraph 2B, we are in the middle of a vote.
On the point of order, we need to know what we're voting on. So you're about to call a vote on 2B,
which delegates the Executive Director of Children's Services to enter into this contract.
Now that there isn't a majority on the committee for this money to be released,
to what extent is that delegation going to apply? I agree that she should be able to take measures
to continue the project and make sure that it isn't delayed,
but to what extent will it allow her to spend money?
Just to be really clear about the decision making here,
so the vote that just took place was a recommendation
by this committee to the executive.
That can be taken into account at the executive
when the executive makes its decision,
as will the subsequent votes on the subsequent paragraphs that are going to be voted on,
but in terms of actually the decision of the council, that the decision -making body of
the council is the executive, not this committee.
I'm not denying that.
I'm just asking for what the recommendation of this committee would actually entail, given
what's just happened.
Can we move to...
Yes, absolutely.
So this is paragraph 2B.
I'm going to ask everyone who is for paragraph 2B,
everyone who is for paragraph 2B,
everyone who is for paragraph 2B.
Thank you, have you got that, Ruth?
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10.
Yep.
and moving to paragraph to see against and abstain.
So everyone against paragraph to be naught
and abstentions on paragraph to be two abstentions.
And now moving to a paragraph to see all those four.
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine.
Ten?
Yep.
Ten, four.
Thank you.
Any against?
Any against?
No.
Any abstentions?
Abstentions?
Two.
Two.
Yes.
I'm looking at the time.
It's now quarter to 10, so we can move swiftly to schools finance, dedicated school grant
recovery.
This paper highlights the challenges and successes in supporting children with SEND amid financial volatility and increasing needs.
Working within these financial pressures, our focus, as always, remains on meeting the needs of our children and their families.
I think Mr Evans is going to speak to this paper. Mr Evans or Mr Halleck? Mr Halleck.
I'm a firm believer in better practice equals better finances and I think our whole recovery
plan really is built around that.
Everything we do, our sufficiency strategy, early intervention and managing price all
We will play into good, robust decision -making
but in most cases, nearly all
what is good for the child is also better
for the finances.
Our sufficiency strategy links with
price,
every single placement, does not only place
locally
but also brings down our average cost per price
and that is how we have managed to keep our
inflation below the headline figures
that we see
when you look at our price increases,
average price increases overall.
I had the privilege of joining
a local government association peer review
of another council last week.
It was an intense meeting, but it did also show
that focus on getting that ordinary array
of available provision, that graduated response right,
which is that escalation slowly through support services
rather than going from zero to 100 EHCPs.
By having that in place,
you really, really can make a difference for the child.
You can help schools support children
in mainstream settings more cases than not.
And so our recovery plan really does look
at all those factors.
We have invested significantly in sufficiency.
We have invested in early intervention.
We have a whole lot of initiatives that we've been through a few times.
And on the whole, it is paying off.
The funding element is all these variables are very, very sensitive, and therefore you're
playing with very fine margins.
And the one element that could really help, as the paper outlines, is just 1 percent increase
in funding will make a huge difference to the bottom line while we're controlling every
other element.
Thank you.
Thank you very much, Mr. Halleck. Have we got any questions on that paper?
Councillor Cribbelli?
I just wanted to ask you a question about paragraph 8 and 9, you talking about the rise
in EHCP growth. And paragraph 8 talked about the fact that the rise in the number of EHCPs
is one of the biggest driver costs within the same system, and that's obviously something
that's reflected very much nationally across councils throughout the whole of England and
Wales and there's obviously been a big rise in the past decade of the understanding of
issues about ADHD, ASD and same needs. But what I was curious about and maybe you can't
answer this is says EHCP growth in Wandsworth has been below the national trend since 2020.
Our number of EHCPs is growing by 27%, while London growth 42.
And nationally, we're quite a bit behind London and the national trend.
I was just wondering if there's a particular reason for that.
Yeah, so there is.
We have a lot more early intervention provision.
Our state, our mainstream inclusion is strong.
We have that ordinary available provision
with our investments in NIPA.
That's at the early years stage.
We've got our therapies.
Some local areas don't have that SALT provision,
don't have occupational therapy.
The only way to access those is via an EHCP.
We have a very strong provision
which we can still look at and enhancing,
but it is still strong at that same support level.
One of the biggest reasons parents and schools
apply for EHCPs is access to therapies.
So we've looked to support that.
Obviously, falling roles is also an underlying support
of downward EHCPs.
But I think it's a resounding success, really.
I also think that there's increased parental confidence
in schools.
We have, as Michael said, we've invested a lot of money
in our support services to provide support to schools,
to model and that's early years teams, inclusion teams, the ordinarily available provision
document that we have developed with schools has been really, really beneficial.
We've also got a parent's guide now as well so that parents know what they should expect
from schools in terms of support for children.
And as I said, I think what we're seeing from this is an increase in parental confidence
in terms of schools being able to support children
effectively at SEND support level.
And even the example I gave of Sarah in her school,
actually setting up her own kind of base to support children
has been clearly beneficial because it then
drove far fewer EHCPs than maybe we would have expected had she
not put that support in place.

6 Schools Finance - Dedicated Schools Grant Recovery (Paper No. 24-265)

So I really do think that our investment in our services
is to support our schools and that the earliest opportunity has really enabled us to drive down the number of requests for EHCPs.
And Councilor Osborne and then Councilor Paul.
Yes, if I can just continue on exactly the same subject.
I mean, I think it's important to say, of course, if any child does need an educational health and care package, they're going to get it.
And it's, and that's important.
But I think it's also important to just sort of move slightly to one side and park this
discussion of EHCPs as a financial matter.
It is a positive, regardless of the finances, that we found ways and methods of bearing
down on the numbers by early intervention, by other systems, more inclusion in the mainstream,
and so on.
That is a major positive regardless of a finance paper at Children's Committee.
So I suppose if I have any question on it, it would be is there anything else we can
do on that to keep that process in motion, make sure that we're achieving that all the
time.
I am the assistant director for finance for children services.
We are looking at other projects as well all the time.
So we are just looking at some data around transition, so children who move from primary
school to secondary school.
That is an area where there is historically a spike of EHCP requests at that time.
So we're looking at that as well as a potential investor save initiative
Thank you, I think I've got councillor Paul next and then councillor court
Thank you. I'm just thinking around the falling school numbers
So it's just the impact of the 40 rolls is having like an increasing factor on and putting pressures on schools and things
So I'm just wondering how does the council plan to manage school budgets with these lower pupil numbers and?
And how can we help schools avoid becoming overly reliant on EHCPs to secure funding
and things?
We actually put a lot of support, provide a lot of support for our schools in looking
after their finances.
I think this is the third local authority I've worked at, and we provide more support
directly to the schools, their teachers, the business managers within the schools in looking
after their finances and budgets.
We've got a whole system of escalating support in terms of schools who are beginning to get
into financial difficulty.
You're absolutely right.
As schools experience falling roles, that's likely to happen more.
We try to predict that and help schools sort of ensure they're correctly resourced for
that future provision that's required.
Yeah, and also just to add on that,
talking from a financial position,
the good thing is that we have very clear joinup
between our SCN team, our performance and participation team,
finance team, so we work together
because it's really important that,
yes, the money is very, very important
because clearly it's how schools manage,
but actually we've gotta balance that
with quality of education, teaching and learning,
and we've got to make sure that actually,
yes, there are some balances that we have to find,
and these are conversations we have all the time
with head teachers, but I think it's really important
that we work very, very closely together.
And I think also what we do is we look at where,
if we've got an outlier in terms of requests
from schools for EHCPs, it's then trying to work out,
right, what sits underneath that,
and how can we support schools then with,
well, what is it, why are you putting in the request
for more EHCPs and can we do something slightly differently
to help you?
Because we totally get that actually we're
pushing an inclusion agenda where schools
have got tight budgets.
And that becomes very, very difficult.
So it's that balance between the two.
So it's just making sure that we,
and that drives some of our work around, well,
what other support can we put in place?
And therefore, that's when we think about the other programs
that we can deliver.
We've recently done an SEMH review,
and that's really identified where our gaps are.
So it's really important we stay ahead of the game
in terms of looking at trends and looking at what's happening
so that we can plug those gaps before they appear.
I think that's what I was going to ask next,
is what does that look like in terms of not,
if you're not delivering that, what does the other thing,
in plugging the gaps, what does that look like?
So in terms of the support that they might need.
Again, I mean that's where we tweak services, we look at what support, we look at training,
and for me it's very much about upskilling people.
That's really, really important because actually one of the things we're looking at now is
working alongside schools.
It's all well and good going in and having a conversation about a job, but actually going
in observing, modeling, practice, so that actually then you can upskill your teachers.
They feel more confident then in terms of supporting children within the setting, and
then we don't hit crisis points sometimes for those children. So it's about the training,
the modelling and really thinking about our resources and are our resources fit for purpose.
Sometimes we have to flex our services and think things slightly differently in terms
of the support that schools need.
Just to say on keeping schools full is probably the best thing we can do financially to give
them all the resources they need.
I think I had Councillor Corner and then Councillor Burchill.
Just a quick question really, almost a clarifying question that I have on the scenario planning,
which is really helpful for just seeing what might happen in certain assumptions.
My understanding is that the scenario on page 59 of the pack is the high probability scenario
that we're saying is most likely going to happen.
And that does show that the DSG would still be in deficit
by 28, 29, albeit not by as much as it,
actually just by slightly less than it will be in 24, 25,
or half of what it will be, but still in deficit.
And then scenario two on page 60 shows
that it'll be in surplus, but that's significantly
less likely from what I can tell by the quite ambitious assumptions.
And then page 63 shows a scenario where we received two years of 10 % increases in funding.
Surely scenarios two and three, based on what we know at the moment, are vanishingly unlikely
to happen.
What's your view on that?
We are lobbying government quite considerably, so we are taking the lead in hosting the fair
funding national conference in spring.
We will have the deputy director of the ESFA presenting as a keynote speaker.
We are hoping to have some ministers there.
It will be all schools finance and send colleagues invited.
So a national event to really focus on this.
As long as the ATPs are growing, we are doing well at 4 .8 % and falling, a national 10%,
and you've got inflation, even if it was at 2%, there's going to be a differential there
at 3%, which is going to have to be addressed either one way or another, either more money
or change in the way we do things.
So I think there's a possibility that this area could be looked at.
If it's not, we will have to work through and keep doing what we're doing.
I do think even at the 5%, even at the 3%, there will be a tipping point where we see
declining EHCP numbers and we can start making inroads.
Thank you very much, Mr. Halleck.
And I think, yeah, from the chair, I just wanted to thank you and your team and all
of you because it's outstanding the work that you're doing.
And I think what you've just shared with us, that Wandsworth is going to be hosting this
conference in the spring with ministers, shows that we are absolutely taking a lead on this
and that that is recognized nationally.
And I think it's something that we should all be proud of from the previous administration
and the work that was done there and what we're continuing to do now.
It's really lovely to see Wandsworth way out ahead.
and thank you very much for all your work on that.
So one more question from Councillor Owens,
and then this report is for information.
Councillor Burchill and then Councillor Owens.
Well, Councillor Boswell said very eloquently
quite a lot of what I wanted to say, so thank you.
And it's quite hard work trying to work out this.
And I wish you luck that it all comes good in the end.
But it has, you know, your hard work in setting up
all of the bases and within the schools,
I think is brilliant.
So glad that that's working out to be a success.
Can I just ask, how many extra places are we expecting at Paddock next year when they
move to Broadwater?
Will there be more places?
And a follow -on from that is, are we succeeding in reducing the number of children we are
sending to private provision?
So on the paddock question, it's 67 new places, but it will be a school of over 300, allow
us to have a proper primary school and a secondary school purpose -built, and each place saving
between 40 and 60 ,000 pounds.
It's an invaluable provision.
I can't stress that from every aspect.
On the second point, which was, sorry?
Have you got any proof that we are reducing the number of resents?
So last year one of our main success stories is that independent placements were flat last
year.
Our ambition is to start reducing them and I think as the grand art comes online with
expanded places, paddock, we've got a very, very good chance of achieving that goal.
Councillor Owens.
Thank you, and I can go with what has already been said.
I just slightly just want some clarification on something.
You referenced on page 51, paragraph 16, about the vast majority of new funding provided
for the early years set up obviously for two -year -olds.
And of course that obviously stems from previous governments' funding of childcare for those,
I think, for two -year -olds across the board.
But I was interested because of course you've got in on page 15 paragraph 52 the relocation of
Eastwood nursery to Granard primary and I and obviously they
Looking at that I can see obviously they had
Particular places a base sector that makes more sense
I can I also understand that for those places to perhaps be at Granard primary
But at the same time I also understand that the three nursery schools
the Federation are
are sort of having some staff reductions, et cetera.
Is that because of the high needs at say Eastwood
with the casing or is that because of numbers
or is that just because the government's proposals
on ratios for small children have changed?
Just curious, thank you.
Come in and then I'll ask my colleagues to chip in
if I've missed anything but it's mainly falling roles
driving the maintained nursery school changes
in efficient staffing allocations, I would say.
They cannot run with way too many staff is basically
a very simplistic way of putting it, but that's how it was.
We need to right size them and then rebuild them.
Moving the base out of Eastwood into Granite
did make sense.
We were losing tribunals with the transition
between nursery and reception.
Each one of those was costing 60 to 90 ,000 pounds.
We now have an all through,
which is better for the children as well.
It's a specialist equipped school now
with far bigger economies of scale,
which makes sense financially as well.
And the space is released in Eastwood
for us to bring the day nursery into one provision,
which is a nicer provision that's newer.
We've invested some money to make it look good.
and the outside area.
So that doesn't come without its challenges at the moment,
but mainly falling roles driving us the need for that.
I don't know if Lisa you wanna add.
Yes, come back and then.
Okay, just to follow up,
because clearly, I mean, if the government,
the previous government actually extended
some of the initial charcows,
is meaning that obviously across the board,
there are more nursery places being taken
because by definition, people are getting,
parents are getting a contribution,
particularly now potentially from nine months old onwards.
I'm just wondering if the plans in place to perhaps
with those nursery schools extend the term time
to all 50 weeks of the year, whatever it is,
or wrap around from eight till six,
or whatever the private sector does
that seems to be popular, thank you.
Yeah, I mean, I think we're seeing it already
at one of our primaries.
I think Valham are maintained nurseries.
they're looking at their model, looking at how they can do things slightly differently.
Then we need to have the flexibility for families.
So yeah, I mean there's absolute scope there in terms of thinking about that model.
And we're working alongside all of our maintained nursery schools.
I know Somerset at the moment, they have got a very flexible offer and their numbers are very, very good.
And we've just got to make sure we look across the piece in terms of making sure that
Our nurseries meet the needs of their communities. Ideally, that's what we're looking to do and and and they will be different across the the various
nurseries and
And we're working with the heads that are leading those settings to make sure that they have that flexibility to meet the needs of their
families
So I'm bearing in mind the time I think it's 10 past 10 now. This report is for information
So can we note the report for information?
Agreed. Thank you very much and again
Huge thanks to your team and the school's team.
We come to the last paper of the evening, which is
quarter one, budget monitoring.
Now, this committee has never received quarterly budget
monitoring reports.
They've always been to need.
So this is the first one for us.
And it provides an overview of the position in children's
services in what we all know as we've all
discussed in the previous paper this evening,
a very challenging environment.
Your insights and expertise and scrutiny as well
as councilors are vital as we work together
to ensure that Children's Services Department
has the right financial resources to meet the needs
of all children in the borough.
And going forward with these quarter reports,
your contributions will be invaluable.
I know in an earlier paper, Councillor Cornyn, you were asking for more transparency.
This is absolutely it.
It's not just going to be to need to get one every year at every meeting.
Mr Hallock, I think you were going to speak to this paper.
I think on the whole it's a positive story.
We did come here a year ago with a recovery plan with Thereabouts meeting that.
This report shows that we are.
Obviously it doesn't come without its challenges.
But at the moment a really good position to be in compared to many others.
Anybody got any questions on the paper?
Councillor Paul and then Councillor Davies, I can see.
Thank you.
You just mentioned about challenges.
I'm just wondering if you can expand on that, what the challenges are managing the budget
and also what the pressures are, if there are any pressures.
So I think managing demand has been excellent,
especially in the social care practice model,
working to keep children at home.
That definitely is a massive benefit to the finances.
Those residential placements are, on the flip side,
our biggest risk these days.
As I have said at these committees before,
but placement in residential used to be an expensive one,
almost £250 ,000 a year, they're now 1 .2 million.
You just need to have one of those
and your budget is no longer balancing for that year.
So it is very fine margins.
I think managing demand is definitely our success
and by not having fewer of those than others,
on the whole our benchmarking does show that.
We are outliers in a way that we're that good
at our placements.
Definitely helps with the finances.
I would say that's the biggest risk by far.
and transport alongside that can be a risk,
but it's more that trickle effect than a big one placement
and it makes a huge impact.
So yeah, I'll leave it there.
Councillor Davies.
Thank you for this paper.
I was wondering how we could drive sort of like
being effective and inclusive by increasing the work
with the voluntary sex community organizations,
faith organizations, in delivery of these services,
which I guess is part of the integrated care system,
but it can a financial benefit to the council be made there?
Most definitely, early intervention definitely works
if it's done effectively and you target correctly.
Voluntary organizations have other ways of raising funding.
So every penny we put in they can match it with additional funding
They are also very innovative and on the pulse with the community site. We definitely should be leveraging that
Especially to deal with that the front door the early intervention
Thank you for highlighting on earlier years councilor Davies I can't look at Valley I know you want to come in
Councillor Cornyn. Thank you chair and thank you. Well done to the team for controlling
the budget in this way and I know that not all directorates in the council have had the
same kind of success that we've had in children so well done for that. The variances on page
65 the Q1 variances these are essentially projections of what we think
the variance will be over the whole year right to what extent would you argue
that business resources is more of a fixed cost so therefore less likely to
change in terms of a variance whereas children social care as we've already
heard seems to be more of a variable cost it's much more likely to fluctuate
and therefore the balancing position as indicated on page 65 whilst is accurate
to the extent that we given what we know now is more likely to change in a
negative position than a positive.
It's a good question the only thing I'd say is in business
resources is the SCN transport budget which is relatively volatile I think we
manage our staffing costs extremely well.
It's been a real success story.
So you write, the volatility is in that children's social care.
We've got both children with disabilities in there
and our social care placements.
Both of them have been our major pressures
in the last couple of years.
So yes, there is a real risk on that line.
And we can presumably, we'll get a Q2
and say we'll be able to track it.
And thank you for that.
It's really helpful.
We do have placeholders built in to anticipate demand, but if they're not enough, then we'll
have to start to affect the forecast.
Ms. Wilson -Holm, did you want to come in?
It's mostly been answered, I think, but I was just wanting to ask about forecasting

7 2024-25 Quarter 1 Budget Monitoring (Paper No. 24-266)

in the future and how much notice you had of, for example, a new child who is going
to need a lot of money spent on them?
Yeah, that's the million dollar question.
So to a certain extent, we have visibility of those children,
but obviously we're putting in interventions
and we want them to work.
I don't know, Rashid wants to come in.
Probably a good idea, but yes,
we do sometimes have surprises, and that is the risk.
Yeah, I think the nature of the children and families
that we're working with means that that level of complexity
can sometimes come at us in ways that we don't expect.
So there will be children that we do know about
who we're working with really hard to keep at home.
And we may not be able to over a prolonged period.
But equally, there will be children
who might not be on our radar at all,
that might come in via police protection
and then have a number of complex issues
that we have not been aware of.
And as Michael says, the nature of the placement
market means that that could really affect our budget quite significantly.
To just add to that and think in the balcony for a second that's right in
terms of the children that are already in the system or we're already working
with but as a borrower you know we see at least a hundred thousand people
coming in and out of Wandsworth on a yearly basis so it's very hard to an
extent to predict you know what's gonna come in into the next wave. We're also
of sanctuary, aspiring to be.
We've got a lot of asylum seeking children
and unaccompanied minors that are knocking on our door
and we are opening those doors for them.
So we don't really know, again, what the future holds.
We've got a number of responsibilities,
safeguarding duties for all children living in the borough
when there's an immediate incident,
even though they could belong to a different local authority.
So other looked after children by other authorities,
but with carers in our borough.
So there's a lot of complexities in trying to really anticipate that level of demand.
We do our best, but it's really, really challenging.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Councillor Burchfield, did you want to come in?
And then Councillor Davies.
Yes, thank you, Chair.
Page 66 at the bottom, number 14.
Apparently there's been a significant increase in the number of children being placed in
residential schools, I thought we were hoping to reduce that.
And then we've got this very expensive chart showing us our 20 most expensive children.
And it's a tragedy that these children need so much money spent on them and I don't
regret them.
But are we going to be able to bring any of these costs down?
and what about luminous house, are we using that more efficiently?
Yeah, the children that are most expensive I have direct oversight of on a weekly basis at our care panel,
so we're constantly looking at step -down plans for them, so to move from high cost residential into lower cost residential
and ultimately into families and then to return home or to kinship care.
The nature of their needs means that that can be a much longer process than we anticipate.
The level of trauma, the level of psychological disturbance means that that can't be achieved
in three to six months.
And sometimes it can be 12 to 18 months and longer.
The nature of the placement market means that even when they have effectively done their
time in the high -cost residential placement, we then need to search for another placement
at a lower level of support.
The market is out of control.
Demand way out of the strips of supply.
We are competing with across the UK for placements.
We do have luminous. Luminous is run with our partners St. Christopher's.
Luminous is currently full. We use it in a very effective way to work with families.
To maintain children at home so they come in for a short period of time.
We know who those children are and to avoid them coming in for a long stay.
work effectively with them and their families and get them back home. It's
always full. We've currently got one vacancy and we're
looking at a child where there has been a breakdown of a foster family to come
into Lubenus. Otherwise it is a labour unit that is always full.
So we're using it to its capacity.
That's a good question. I think there is merit in developing a
business plan to at least look at the costings for that.
The risk of another children's home is that we want to keep
children out of residential care and when you have
in -house provision, it means you use it.
But the placement market is out of control
and authorities need to do something to manage it
because these costs will only go up and up and up.
So I think that's something that we are looking at.
I just want to clarify that, Councillor, none of these are demand driven.
It's all price.
Only ESE and transport linked to education, health and care plans.
So residential placements is not significantly up, but the costs are because of the individual
costs.
Sorry. Are these young people ones who are needing a lot of care because they are very
difficult to behave, you know, their behavior? Or do they have severe medical and educational
needs? They have a range of both. So those children in particular, I know all of those
children. They will have some neurodevelopmental difficulties, they'll have a history of early
trauma and neglect, they'll have broken relationships with primary carers, they'll have broken relationships
with adolescents, they'll be vulnerable to exploitation, they may have been exploited,
they'll be likely multiple drug and alcohol users and developing serious mental health
problems, all of that will come out in very challenging behavior because they can't manage
themselves, they can't manage their emotions, they can't manage relationships.
So their behavior is challenging, but it's challenging not because they're out of control
kids, it's challenging because they've been affected by a set of life circumstances which
are really, really unfortunate and challenging.
So our job is to wrap around them, to help them manage.
It is complex work and if it were easy we would be able to manage them in less supportive
environments with the support we give them.
But most of those children we try to keep at home and wrap around them.
But they are complex vulnerable children.
Thank you very much.
I was just going to say thank you for doing your best to do the best you can for them.
We are progressing towards half past ten.
I think, Councillor Davies, you...
Just a quick question, really, building on the challenges
when a child just pops into your radar
and they might have a range of needs.
And with the crisis in housing
and particularly temporary accommodation use,
I can see how someone could suddenly arrive in ones
with very little notice.
And I think there is meant to be a duty on other councils
to be in touch, but, you know,
I have experience in my day job of people sort of arriving
and no one knows about these families,
which actually just will exacerbate the complexity.
But the question is, what can be done
in terms of coordination and collaboration,
communication with other London councils,
so that we're keeping an eye on the child wherever
they are a little bit more.
you know, so if their house prunks into Wandsworth,
into a hotel room by Westminster,
we want to make sure that we've got all the GCF care
towards them, even though Westminster's maybe not coming up
Trump's with the housing, for example.
I'm happy to come in on that point.
I think it's fair to say, Councillor,
that there are pan -London protocols
and there are national protocols that we all sign up to.
Of course, the quality of the relationship
is what really makes a difference.
And we know that we are all fishing in the same pond
in terms of the workforce.
There's challenges across the board.
So recognizing all of that, I think what we're trying to do
is to make sure that there's clear escalation
protocols in place.
You know, when you're talking about children
at risk of harm and significant harm,
things are moving faster occasionally in those conversations.
But I think there's much more that we could do together to raise awareness and
encourage communities to actually pick up the phone and talk to us.
If they come across the examples that you were given, it's most likely
that our communities will come to know about somebody that's just arrived in
the area, back to the earlier point about domestic abuse.
Let's all be curious about who's our next neighbor.
do they need help and support,
and come and knock on our door.
Because yes, the protocols are only as good as the people
that are manning them and responding to them,
but that curiosity point and human relations
is what's gonna make a difference.
I think that's probably a very good point
to bring the meeting to a close.
So this report is for information,
so I ask the committee to note the report.
We note the report, thank you very much.
And thank you all for the really high -level scrutiny tonight
It was an excellent committee.