Housing Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Thursday 3 October 2024, 7:30pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

Housing Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Thursday, 3rd October 2024 at 7:30pm 

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  1. Webcast Finished

1 Minutes - 17th July 2024

Okay, so welcome to the meeting.
My name is Councillor Paul White and I am the Chair of the Housing Overview and Scrutiny
Committee.
Members of the committee, I will call your name in alphabetical order.
Please switch on your microphone to confirm your attendance.
Councillor Austin?
Here.
Councillor Ayres?
Here.
Councillor Kishane?
Here.
Councillor and Mrs Graham?
here Councilor Govindia present Councillor McLeod here
Councillor Rigby here Councillor tiller here Councillor Varifraj good evening I
would also like to welcome Councillor Dickham as a cabinet member for housing
and mrs. prices deputy chair of the borough residents forum we have a number
of officers present who will introduce themselves when they address the committee.
Are there any declarations of either pecuniary or other registrable or non -registrable interests?
I'll kick off first of all, I'm a member of the community renewable energy Wandsworth,

2 Declarations of Interests

but who do deal with the council by draw no financial benefit from that relationship.
Anybody else?
Matthew yes, I'm a council tenant. Sorry council to us
Council mclough's
I'm also a council tenant
Anybody councilor Gershane. I'm a council lease holder
Excellent anymore
Okay
Alright, yeah
Okay, yeah, sorry.
So the minutes from the 17th of July, 2024.
Are there any objections to confirm in the previous minutes as a correct record?
Councillor, Councillor Givinha.
No, no objection to the minutes, but I just thought that before we go into the substantive
agenda, I just wanted some assurance from you and the cabinet member about the Thousand
Homes program. We used to have a report on this to this committee and after all it's
this committee's cash that's delivering it. In the Council's reorganization it's gone
off to somewhere else and I want to be assured that we will have insight into it, we will
be told what's happening and that we will have in a sense an upper hand on what we as
committee are commissioning and hoping to deliver on.
So I'm just hoping that you can assure us.
Yeah, I can't quite work out when the change in orders of when papers were coming to various
different dates on committees.
I think, like you say, we normally have an affordable housing update and it would sit
within that paper.
So one thing, we want this to be transparent, not just for this committee, but for the entire
So you will have seen on the website now there is a live tracker which has every
submission
Planning dates. I think I think it's really fantastic and I've
Sent it out quite a few times. So that's a way for residents to keep almost, you know day -to -day
updates on on progression of schemes
What I definitely want to get into the habit on is keeping
local ward members where schemes are happening when there are changes or delays.
So I know you had a visit of Lytton Grove and that's now completed, but obviously that weights contract.
There was a delay there and we didn't have a kind of regular update with local council, so
we're going to try and implement that going forward to give people a bit of a heads up.
We're also obviously acutely aware that when the paper comes it gives a chance for people to come and do deputations to do some political football.
So we don't want to we're not hiding away from that part of it, but we were worried
I think last year where any mention of the thousand homes warranted the same deputation numerous times. So we want to avoid
Some of that repetition, but I completely understand that the need for the council to have total oversight on
how schemes are progressing and I think we've done a good job of not hiding because we're very public and open about when we
put things forward and the comp public consultations and
and the like but noted and I maybe Kay can give some update on when the affordable housing
paper will come through next.
So the affordable housing update paper will be coming to November committee?
For cabinet member for that reassurance because I think that's very helpful.
My own concern was raised by in a sense the handling of things, the day -to -day handling
Residents in my ward have complained about the way
the Lytton Grove development has happened
and how the rubbish has moved from the State onto the road
and there are paladins on Lytton Grove
and it is attracting a huge amount of fly -tipping.
Essentially, they are saying it's housing department's fault.
Housing department is saying, not my responsibility any more.
And, of course, that is the bit where I think people feel
that wool's being pulled over their eyes.
So I think it's important that people have
an understanding where to go on the day -to -day matters,
and then we as counselors have insight
into how to deal with this.
Are you talking about Lytton Grove or the Platte?
I am no, Lytton Grove.
Lytton Grove, okay, that's useful,
because I've recently visited the Platte as well,
which is also in your ward.
And so on on the kind of because now that Litten Grove is complete and keys are being handed over
the
The kind of day to day should really fall with the area housing panels
But if there are things that aren't functioning, you know, sorry not area housing panels area managers
but if there are kind of
Design or leftover areas that the development team need to address that's please please send those through and Joe Richardson
And the team will definitely investigate
I think the director is aware of the situation.
I think the peculiarity here is that there is some continuing issues on finishing of
the work and therefore the Paladins can't be accommodated on site and they are accommodated
on the road and the usual things happen.
Just to reassure the Council of India, although it did come through to me and I explained
that there has been a change and that the major regeneration of the thousand home schemes
are now part of the place department which will report directly to the chief executive
you know. I did as you would expect and as promised take it up and had a response immediately
there are no silos emerging here and Joe Richardson has confirmed he is aware of the problem and
he's liaising with colleagues in waste to make sure it's resolved. It's a temporary
arrangement as you know caused by the construction well in as much as it
relates to the Kurzveil Road development and had to be sorted so they are aware
of the issue and they will be resolving it and getting back to you personally
yeah the council grown and could I just follow up listening to all the
discussions basically what is the simplistic word is we just want to have
the overview of a thousand homes so that we feel it's within the housing
department. I'm very happy if it's in place as well but it's housing's
responsibility actually at the end of the day and I just want confirmation of
that as well please thank you.
Councillor Dickerton.
Couldn't agree more. Places specifically designed because Litten Grove is one we inherited.
Maybe some of these issues might not have existed now but place is
precisely to do that right places where planning architecture design delivery
and housing I know you're making a face but the aim of that is to try and make
sure that thousand homes isn't just seen as a tenured housing delivery model but
one that is creating community spaces designs that work for local residents so
hopefully it should increase the quality of our work but I want this committee to
be the ones that are leading and charging and over you know and scrutinize
I was going to say overviewing, but scrutinizing the plans.
Okay, so can we move on to the Borough Residence Forum report?

3 Borough Residents' Forum - Report of meeting held on 25 September 2024 (Paper No. 24-276)

That's okay, Councillor Givin, yeah.
So yeah, the report of the meeting held on the 25th of September 2024, and if I can remind
members to give attention to this report during the
when considering related items and tonight's agenda
So miss price is are there any comments?
Thank you chair
Just that I wish the members would take note of some of the comments that we've made and I have received a response
from the assistant director
on the matters that I raised at the Borough Residence Forum.
And for the business plan update, I have no further comments,
but I am quite happy to answer any questions that the members may have.
Thank you.
Are there any questions?
No? Okay.
So are we okay to note the report for information?
Agreed? Okay, great. Okay.
So, item 4, the Housing Services Activity Update.

4 Housing Services Activity Update (Paper No.24-267)

Mr. Werf, would you like to introduce this for us, please?
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Committee.
So this paper is the usual update report that comes each time.
It's reporting the position at the end of August.
So at that time, as the report says, we'd seen a rise in temporary accommodation usage
on the back of some seriously heavy demand
in the first five months of the year as referenced.
In July and August we had the highest numbers
in both months that we've seen in the last two years.
So the pressure continues to be significant.
Despite that, you will note that in terms of
our use of accommodation, we continue to comply
with the requirement to avoid bed and breakfast,
our bed and breakfast usage is pretty stable really, just up five.
We don't have any families in bed and breakfast for over six weeks.
On the letting side, so against the forecast approved by the committee and executive in
July, we're actually slightly ahead of our forecast supply.
It's there or thereabouts, 1 % ahead.
But that bodes well when you look at the detail because we've not yet counted the new supply
under the thousand homes and other development pipelines.
So that's looking quite positive.
The paper talks in the executive director of finance's comments about the financial
pressures and they are covered in more detail in the paper further down the agenda.
So by way of introduction, that's all I'd wish to say at this point chair happy to take any questions
Okay, any questions?
Council Rigby
Thank you chair
Relating to the temporary accommodation in Balham. Could I have an update please on the nightingale square works?
Yes, Thank You councillor. So I'm
committee will recall these works were
Agreed, I think, earlier this year, maybe in the last financial year.
And they comprised the creation of a laundry free of charge to residents.
That's been running now for approximately six months.
It's running well, welcomed by the residents.
No management issues or, you know, problems arising from that.
So that's good.
The other major piece of work was the creation of improved play facilities, lighting, landscaping,
and so on.
and contractors are on site at the moment and we're hoping, weather permitting, to complete those before the end of the calendar year.
So it's all progressing well.
Councillor Kishane.
Thank you, Chair. It's encouraging to see that the Council is making use of the private rental sector in meeting demands for homes.
It is a precedent time for landlords in the private sector.
There will be a lot of change over the coming years with changes in national policy such
as the ending of fixed -term licenses, banning of no -fault evictions, banning of bidding
wars, possible increase in capital gains tax, as well as demands on getting houses above
a C rating with significant consequences for landlords that may not be able to keep up
with that.
We could argue about the relative merits of these policies until the cows come home, but
It is difficult to argue that these changes will make it easier for private renters or
private landlords to put properties on the market.
So I would like to know what the Council is doing to make life easier for private landlords
and to ensure that this stream of properties in the private rental sector are still available
to use in this way.
So, if I could perhaps try and answer that question initially.
So you'll recall that in the June paper, there was a package of measures approved around,
for example, improved financial incentives to encourage both the procurement of units
for temporary accommodation, but also the letting to families nominated by us on a direct
letting arrangement.
So, it's early days obviously, but that is starting to bear fruit.
On the wider point, the Renters' Rights Act, as it's now being called, will, I guess like
any big change, poses an opportunity and a risk.
So I think, you know, there is talk amongst, you know, my counterparts and professional
press and so on, that we may see a spike in homelessness levels in its run -up.
But once it's impacted and has settled down, one should expect to see homelessness demand
drop, or at least in theory.
So it's something we need to monitor.
It's only at the first reading, I think, stage, and it could be taped between now and its
proposed implementation, which I think is sort of spring in government talk.
So it's something we will keep an eye on, obviously, because it is a big change, and
We'll no doubt come back to committee with updates in over the coming months
Can I just ask what contingencies are in place if we do see a significant fall in properties available in the private rental sector?
Well then
In theory I guess
Speculative obviously the problems that this paper describes could get worse in the short term
But our duties are statutory, so we would have to make provision and cater for that.
But it is speculative and I guess it's one of those things that depends on what perspective
you're listening to at the time as to whether it's a positive or negative or a neutral act,
so we shall see.
But as of the moment there's no policy for that?
Not in a capital P sense.
But the council houses that were building social rent and the ones that were pushing
the developers to build as well will have an impact as well on that, Mr. Worth?
Well that's correct.
I mean anything that boosts the supply of property to relieve homelessness is to be
welcomed and this paper sets out a number of measures in the detail on the letting side
of the things that have previously been discussed.
So, for example, you recall that we have set ourselves challenging targets
for moving under occupiers this year and this paper reports in the detail
that we're up to pace with that.
So that will be a positive step as I mentioned the incentives
that were agreed, we're starting to deploy.
We're seeing those come in.
They're not reflecting these numbers yet.
And, yeah, it's, as ever, it's a dynamic piece of activity we're dealing with.
Councillor Givinyan.
Thanks, Chair. I was just picking up, I got all the questions on my own, but just picking up Councillor Gissane's point.
Perhaps the committee might find it useful in time to have some intelligent analysis
of the impact on the private rented lease, private leasing pipeline to this council as
a consequence of changes both locally and nationally.
Because it seems to me that just over 660 families are housed in those units that come
through the private sector.
And if that dries up, it isn't good for them,
it isn't good for the council.
And the emergence of the nightly rate
is possibly as a result of the pressures
that private landlords perceive.
And they've opted for a different business model.
And similarly, some landlords have
moved on to creating their properties into HMOs
rather than the proper leasing.
So there are different things out at play
and how that impacts on our responsibilities as a council,
on housing people, maybe something worth looking at.
And in due course, for officers to do a report on
that informs members of the impact of national and local changes
on that supply side.
I don't expect an answer now,
But happy for you to cogitate over it and perhaps write to us in time.
Do you want to provide an answer now?
I was just going to add, Chair, that probably the best place for that and the timing fits
would be the July report next year, because by that time the legislation would have been
passed, we would have had the guidance, and no doubt there will be, I imagine, the national
government will be doing an impact assessment, et cetera.
Sorry, Dick.
We often live in completely different realities from each other and in my, and I would say
the vast majority of evidence -based research on the causes of homelessness, Section 21
is part of the reason why we have such a horrific homelessness and temporary accommodation crisis.
So it was something that your government was going to bring forward.
I understand that that didn't happen and now we are moving ahead with banning no -fault
eviction.
You are right that there are, and this is why I'm going to meet you halfway, is that
in trying to salvage the totally horrific and I would say unfair private rental system
that has developed over the last 15, 20 years, and both governments have their part to play
in the rise of the private rental sector, buy to let, all of these things, the reality
for renters is one in which many are, lives are being constantly ruined.
If I think of my age group, my peers bouncing around one year
left to one year left, 15 % rent increases, no security,
no protections.
Now, the kind of tragedy that comments here
is that in trying to move away from that system, there will,
and we see it all the time with the lobbying letters
that landlords are going to sell up and move on,
and there's going to be a squeeze on supply.
I think in Wandsworth, we're in a position
different from other borrowers that Wandsworth will remain to be a very profitable place
to rent. We have high demand private rental and rents continue to increase. So I'm not
too worried about the financial hardship of the majority of landlords in Wandsworth. And
the second issue is what do we do when faced with that moral challenge of in order to regulate
to make people's lives much better, there might be a short term pain in the sense of,
you know, the possibility of landlords leaving the market. So we have to tread that line
really carefully and we're very serious about that but I think you'd come away from this
committee from what I just heard thinking that you know that the private renters are somehow the
problem here and that it's not the system which allows landlords currently we just have to go to
the next paper on the nightly paid accommodation system that is crippling councils up and down the
country the market model isn't working and we do need protections for tenants because to be a
private mentor at the moment unless you're well off you have a secure income is a real nightmare
and I think we have to recognize the difficulty that's causing people.
I mean, I was only seeking, in a sense, for us to understand the consequences of change
and the impact on our responsibilities, and I'm not necessarily going to dispute some of your analysis of why we are here,
and I'm not also trying to exonerate the private rented sector entirely.
I mean, yet acknowledge that it has a huge contribution
to make in assisting local authorities in meeting
its homelessness needs.
And there are landlords who are good and reliable
and continue to provide us that.
And we have, I know Mr. Werth and his team
have worked with people and are satisfied,
with satisfaction, work with those people.
And what I don't want is that changes drive them out
from assisting the council.
I'm also concerned about particularly the HMO growth.
The growth of HMOs, where landlords move out
of letting properties to families,
whether the council tenant sponsored families
or otherwise, council sponsored families or otherwise.
But the growth of HMOs is not good for our neighbourhood.
And it is a real business model for some private landlords.
And it's not one that I particularly like or approve of.
And I just think that we shouldn't drive people into that cul -de -sac.
But we have made our points.
Can I check?
Sorry, I just want to add as well that obviously Section 21 was taken away in Scotland and
it didn't have the impact.
I'm not arguing the toss around these things, I just want to be clear.
Just going to the paper, in paragraph 14 and 15, I just want some understanding.
The same, some of the...
The paragraph 14 ends up saying the increase in demand is kind of driven by ongoing cost of living crisis,
which is a good catch -all phrase for listening,
but there must be aspects of cost of living,
other than just kind of blanket cost of living.
There must be some ways in which we might have
a more granular information around that paragraph.
And the second is the following paragraph,
talks about domestic violence, domestic abuse.
And then it ends by saying exclusion by family and friends
and the rights of occupation are minimal.
And I just want to understand, are we saying the domestic abuse
and families saying we can't accommodate you anymore,
or friends saying you can't surf yourself any longer,
in a sense, one and the same thing?
There must be people who say, go away.
I don't want you anymore.
I can't look after you anymore without any abuse.
I just think that that paragraph I read is saying one leads
to the other and I don't think that's always the case.
Thank you, Councillor.
Yeah, I confirm that's not the meaning of these paragraphs.
These paragraphs are attempting, and your feedback is obviously welcome and noted, just
to inform the committee of what's, in headline terms, what is driving the demand.
So those two reasons of homelessness, which we have to monitor as required by government,
are showing up as significant factors and increasing factors, hence their mention.
Maybe that would have been better put into separate paragraphs.
So thank you for the feedback.
Any more questions?
Councillor Varifaraj.
Thank you, Chair.
Just to pick up that point again on domestic abuse, I'd be quite interested to see the
figures on how many of the homeless people presented to the Council are actually women
And why I ask that is because the council's obviously got a new strategy for violence against women and girls.
So if that's something we can maybe work across departments, I understand prevention is really difficult in this kind of situation.
So if there's something we can maybe work.
I'll happily take that away.
Those numbers are very easily obtainable.
It's with this report, do you make it?
No, of course, yeah.
A 30 page report every time.
Yeah, why I ask is.
But quite happy to share that with you and copy in all other members of the committee.
Sorry, one more question.
Obviously I know we've spoken about the reasons, but do we have any other data available to
us on obviously the cost of living is one, the domestic abuse is one, on like why we
have such a high increase in homelessness, like just to kind of understand what the reasons
are so we can kind of address the root causes, and then obviously we know that, you know,
the pressures are going to increase.
So what kind of, what's the council kind of doing to budget for the future?
I hope that made sense.
Yeah, it does, thank you.
These papers are really reporting activity against what is contained in the much more detailed report that comes to the June Committee.
So that's where we try to put that analysis and that level of detail and context.
So we do have that information. Some of it is, so for example, the reference to the cost of living crisis and the rise in family evictions.
So, if you've got, and this is what clients tell us, or the excluding parents tell us,
is that with the more recently the rise in energy costs, you know, having more people
in the household increases those, et cetera.
So we know these are factors.
Pinning them down as to precise percentages is much more difficult.
But what, and we really rely on the analysis that like, you know, the universities do from
time to time, but also in the massive data set that is returned by almost every council
to government every quarter and published about five months in arrears.
So there's a lot of data out there to analyze.
And this report is really just trying to give you, in your oversight role, the essential
information on the trends and so on and so forth.
Councillor Ayers.
I have two questions.
One is quite short.
I'd like figures for the number of people with one child in one bedroom flat.
Is that going up or down?
I'll need to go away and check that, Councillor.
I think this was raised a couple of committees back.
Yes, I'll ask you at every meeting because it's something that bothers me.
The last time I checked it was a very low number.
It was in double digits.
I'll again take that away and come back to you.
Thank you.
I think I've got the number 27 in my head
from the last time I checked.
But let me update.
I'll ask you next meeting.
Thank you.
My other question is a bit more, well, not really complex.
It's about the supply of temporary accommodation
in short life properties.
How long does it take from one of our flats becoming void to a relet?
And in that time, how much of it is available for short life temporary accommodation?
Thank you. I'll ask Mr. Cawley to comment on the void periods and so on in a moment.
So the properties that we referred to in this as short life are a mixture.
They are... So there's been a long -standing policy going back maybe eight, nine years now
that we would selectively pepper pot some properties that would otherwise be let on a permanent basis
for use as temporary accommodation. Pepper pot just dotted around, yeah?
The boroughs, you know, randomly selected, yeah?
And then the second element of that and the larger element I think or at least half of the the number is properties on the
regeneration areas which are slated for
demolition and
Rebuild so again with under those policies where a block petty thorn house is an example
We were decanting the permanent residents the secure tenants those properties will then use this temporary accommodation
So a large chunk of that number the 700 800 are in the regeneration areas
So that's why that's why the numbers are how their numbers are made up
Thank you in respect to avoid properties it will vary quite widely
The first time a property is used as temporary accommodation
There's some additional works that we would do in there that we wouldn't do enough your average void property
So we decorate all the rooms we put in curtains cooker and some flooring etc
So those voids tend to take a bit longer than your average
But then subsequently obviously if someone's been in there for a short time as is often the case with a temporary combination property
Then you know the void property might just need a clean and some minor repairs before it's really that again
So it's really gonna vary quite a lot depending on so how long the person was in the temporary combination
Property and really how well it was kind of looked after while they were there as well
So can I have some figures?
I don't have figures to hand but I can come back to you on them with some more information
on that if that's okay.
Yes please do.
Councillor Instagram.
Thank you chair.
I mean on that very very good question because I know two empty properties that have been
empty for two years.
I know in Huntington Road in West Putney and also in in my patch and I as regards to temporary accommodation
Why I have there been empty for two years when they could be in temporary accommodation until such time as
They could be as you say
Painted rewired and things so that's that's that one
Should I give three together or just answer that one and then the other two I?
I can come back on that.
I don't know the exact properties you're talking about.
I'd have to go back and look into that.
But when properties take that long to turn around,
it's usually because we're looking at
either very significant disability adaptation works
or possibly extending the property
to make a larger property, obviously,
to house larger families.
So perhaps if you can share the exact
property addresses with me,
I can look into it and come back to you
with the exact reasons why it may have taken so long.
But it is unusual for a property to take that long.
obviously they generally speaking would take weeks or just a very short number of months
to turn around and re -let.
Well you know I just hear this on the gossip, you know, why is it so, you know, taking so
long, but yes, okay. The other two chair, it's actually paragraph 23 and it's actually
for information. I mean if you break down homelessness and temporary accommodation,
I know in our administration the armed forces were very much a priority and I just wondered
on that as regards to the numbers, you know, how many would be coming through as a priority
as we would make it a priority.
But also, I know from my experience that there are ladies and gentlemen who are 80 or whatever,
very frail and they're absolutely dying for sheltered and I don't know whether
you can call them how homeless but they're not homeless but you I know
that there's a three bedroom property but let if they were a if they were
found a sheltered accommodation I mean so I just wondered what what your view
is on that and what any outcomes and what information can you give yes thank
Thank you, Councillor. So on veterans, coincidentally, we had a, I think it was a Freedom of Information Act request on this quite recently.
So, pleasingly, amongst, so it's a mandatory question, which we have to ask everybody and we do.
Have you ever served in the Managed Armed Forces because of the Armed Forces Covenant, etc.
We have very few veterans applying to us as homeless.
Partly that's because particularly in London and through organisations like SAFA, Help for Heroes and so on,
there is actually good provision for veterans.
There is a bit of a, not an urban myth, but a bit of a misunderstanding.
And you often see people who are street begging, saying they're ex -military, and most of the
time they're not, in my experience and in others' experience.
It's a nice, it's a, you know, a thing that might elicit more sympathy.
So that's on that one, very low numbers.
On the older residents you mentioned, that would be captured within our underoccupation
strategy.
and you'll recall the team was expanded.
I mentioned earlier that we're up to our increased forecast this year.
Many of those underoccupiers, as we all know,
might initially start with some misunderstanding
about what shelter is and what it isn't.
So there's a kind of a communication point there.
But that's where that would normally fall.
And we're doing well on those numbers against target set.
We've done from memory, I think we've, the target this year is to achieve something like over 110 or 98 downsizing moves and we've done 53 at the end of August.
So, you know, we're kind of keeping up.
Well, I thank you, Chair, follower.
Well, I think you'll know the one I brought to your attention when they are 116 on the waiting list
and when you're 82 and you're diabetic and you want to be in a sheltered accommodation.
I call that priority but I listen to what you say. Thank you.
Councillor Kavindja.
Mr Chair, I'm turning to Appendix 4.
I started looking at the bottom.
The 20… 41 unauthorized occupants.
I think kind of a flavour of the reasons why they are unauthorised occupants would be helpful.
It's not the same as saying they're all unentitled, but just having an understanding of what are the kind of reasons why they are unauthorised would be helpful.
The first box at the top talks about running vacancies.
I mean, there are some interesting figures there on there.
In the case of the eastern area,
you've got 101 running vacancies,
of which only 37 are available for letting.
A bit like Councillor Ayers' point about,
there are vacancies,
but only a small number are available for letting.
Now, what is the reason why Eastern District is an outlier?
Others are probably not as bad as that.
In fact, the Western region is very good.
So what is the reason?
Then what are what are reasons behind particularly something like a property
running being empty for six months and more
waiting to be available for letting?
In relation to unauthorised occupation, a number of those cases will be ones where we
have identified that someone is illegally subletting, so we might have served notices
on them and were in the process of applying to the court to then seek possession of the
or obtain possession of the property.
In that intervening period after we have served the notices and we have got possession, they
would be referred to as unauthorised occupants.
There might be some other cases where the tenant has passed away and a relative might
be in the property and we may be considering a succession application or a discretionary
application for a tenancy.
And again in that intervening period they might be referred to as an unauthorised occupant
until the situation is regularised, even with them being offered a tenancy or with them
being evicted if they have no entitlement to one.
I can, not right now, but we can come back to you on that.
In respect of the void properties in the Eastern area team, generally speaking they have a
higher number of void properties because of the York Road, Winstanley regeneration.
So when obviously the new build properties are complete, often the people moving to those
people moving from the regeneration area.
That creates more void properties
within that particular area.
For example, when we have broad
mansions, when people start to move in
there later this year,
that will probably create about
125 void properties
specifically
in the eastern area team.
They tend to run
with a higher number.
That has gone down a lot
over the last few months.
We are back to a business as usual
position with regard to voids.
I would say.
It would be useful to have a little note so that one doesn't chase false things here.
So it would be helpful to have a note that the particular problem is that.
Okay, any more questions?
Councillor Kishane?
I just want to expand on Councillor Varatori's question about abuse -related homelessness.
This seems like something that requires a long -term strategy and there's very little
in this paper on what that long -term strategy might be.
And I appreciate it.
It's not exclusively the preserve of housing.
It's also something that concerns the health committee on which we both sit.
But that just underlines the need for a joint up approach in terms of a strategy to tackle
abuse -related homelessness.
So I'd like to ask a question about whether any such joined up thinking and strategy actually
exists and if it doesn't are there plans in place to put that in progress?
I can answer that.
I think it was June 21 that we reported to committee that we were successful in the housing
department with attaining domestic abuse housing alliance accreditation.
So that's an accreditation to show that you're an exemplar in the way that you deal with
domestic abuse.
Coming up to being in the process of being re -accredited, so it's likely to happen later
this year. And as a result of that we've got about 20 domestic abuse champions, so that's
members of frontline staff who are domestic abuse champions who've had external training
from Daja on how to deal with domestic abuse so they can help other members of staff on
the more complex cases. And of course we work incredibly closely with community safety and
that violence against women and girls strategy. So we do a huge amount of work in housing
in relation to domestic abuse and we're always looking to improve and make adjustments where
we can.
That's great to hear.
That's all absolutely thoroughly important and worthwhile but is there a way of measuring
the impact of those interventions on the number of people who are victims of abuse -related
homelessness?
Yes, so once again, they, as both a cause of homelessness and in other data sets, it's
a mandatory question we have to ask, obviously.
So the data exists.
We've got various elements to the strategy.
We work very closely with the community safety team.
You will all be aware of the multi -agency risk assessment committee, MARAC arrangements,
which is multi -agency, you know, pulled working, concentrating on those assessed as at risk of serious domestic abuse and so on.
So I think we've got those arrangements in place.
Obviously part of the numbers is driven by the fact that the Domestic Abuse Act of a few years ago
extended the reach of homelessness legislation
to give automatic entitlement to people made homeless through domestic abuse to the council's direct assistance.
So that was a big change, a big progressive change.
So it's not surprising that we see these numbers build over time.
So what's that contributed to is pre that change,
we would have had a lower number of single childless individuals in temporary accommodation
and that's definitely increased.
So I'd like to think we've got most of this covered, but we are seeing it, we are seeing
a higher incidence of it and because our duties are, one, based on a believing approach because
we don't require somebody, rightly don't require somebody to have reported it to the police,
It's not a requirement that somebody reports physical injury. It's coercion mental abuse and so on and so forth
And so, you know we are accommodating
We are protecting more people from that abuse
Yeah, I think we've got this
You know what? I think we're well organized around that it would be might would be my short answer
Thank you, are there any more questions
Could I ask the committee to note this report for information?
Yeah, okay, good.
Okay, the next paper actually goes with a gold paper which we're going to hear later on.
Is it okay if we shift this paper to the gold paper?
Because there's a little bit of synergy between paper four and paper six.
So, yes, so our esteemed general public up there, hi Lisa, would not have to leave and then come back again.
Is that okay?
Brilliant.
Fantastic.
So on to Item 6.
Mark.

6 Wandsworth Quarter 1 Budget Monitoring 2024/25 (Paper No.24-269)

Thank you, Chair.
Good evening.
This report covers the financial forecast at Quarter 1 for the General Fund services
that fall under the remit of this committee.
The current forecast over Spain stands at just under $5 million against a budget of
just over 26 .75 million, which is a 19 % overspend.
The report provides analysis of the individual service areas
that fall under the committee, focusing
on the key area of housing services,
as we discussed earlier, which is the main reason
for the overspend.
This is not unique to Wandsworth and is
being replicated across London and, indeed, nationally.
Appendix B provides more detailed analysis
on the type and cost of the different forms of temporary accommodation that are currently
in use and the main drivers for the forecast. Happy to take any questions and service directors
are here to assist.
Any questions on this paper?
Councillor Galindia.
Thank you, Chair.
I've got six talks about increased competition from central government seeking to house asylum seekers.
A bit a provocative line, really.
Is there any evidence that in Wandsworth is a particular problem?
Is there a scale of that competition in Wandsworth greater than elsewhere?
And is the competition for shortage...
I mean, housing is a resource under enormous pressure for all sorts of reasons.
Why identify this as a particular problem?
I just find it rather provocative, really.
Thanks, Councillor.
It's not intended to be provocative.
It's intended to reflect what my colleagues around
in every London borough would say and what our experience is.
And the numbers back it up.
So you'll recall that some years ago, long time ago now,
responsibility for housing most people seeking sanctuary
asylum in the UK was moved from local government
to central government.
There were dispersal programs, accommodation being found in assumed lower demand areas.
That maintained itself for a long time.
But now the Home Office has, I'd need to check the numbers, but 10, 20, 30 ,000 asylum
sanctuary seeking households accommodated in London.
So when you read in the press about £4 million a day being spent on hotels, that is in low
a large part or significant part in the capital.
And we don't have what are called clearing hotels in the borough.
We had one down in Putney that was closed back in March.
But there are similar ones in southwest London.
There's a large one down in Kingston.
And what this does is because when you look at our homelessness numbers, and
we've reported many times, what we've seen over the last number of years is the proportion
of accommodation we can find in the borough has dropped significantly.
So the looking at it through the lens of just the borough I would suggest isn't helpful
because the home office, they don't have clearing hotels in the borough.
They do have dispersal accommodations, they call it, HMO -type accommodation, individual
properties.
I don't know the numbers because getting that information is tricky, as in not possible,
it's not shared.
But because we are compelled to go and compete all over London for temporary accommodation,
we are in competition with the Home Office because the number of people they are accommodating
wasn't a feature four, five, six years ago.
So that paragraph may read as provocative, but it is based on knowledge and well -established
I just want to come in and say that it's also
Thinking about London as a whole. It's also the specific
Mark corner of the market that we would be looking to procure temporary accommodation
Just like you were saying that some in your earlier comment about the nightly paid model coming forward
we're basically there's a there's a you know a
limited number of
Landlords that are willing to offer that type of accommodation and there is a crossover there
between what the Home Office is looking for and what councils are looking for.
So there are some London boroughs where they are struggling to house their own residents within the borough
because they're being outbid.
And in many ways, the bidding war crosses between governmental departments and boroughs across London.
I think I was making a plea for sensitivity of language.
But moving to something else, which is in paragraph 14 about ways in which we will make
things better.
How realistic are these ambitions here?
Four bullet points about reducing, procuring more private rented, we talked about it earlier,
how easy is that?
recruiting more staff, I mean last time we talked about
being able to, challenging in getting staff
to the posts we established, and when they were in,
they were keeping them on our books for long enough
to make a difference was challenging.
So how realistic are these ambitions set out there?
They are correctly included there as part of the toolkit, if I could use that phrase.
And in most of those, we are improving performance.
So, as I mentioned earlier, the package of financial incentives to procure homes is starting
to pay dividends.
We are getting more landlords coming to us on our leasing schemes.
We are placing more people with their agreement into private rented properties that we've visited and vetted if you like
Our casework backlogs have reduced
We are recruiting more staff. We've just gone out for eight
We've offered six we're going back out for the other two. It is that treadmill which is not not unique to us
So all of these things are valid
at the moment and our challenge is to
to, as demand is increasing, to increase proportionately the outcomes that we're delivering.
And there is a bit of a lag. So I think it's valid they're there, Councillor, as a short answer.
I accept, Mr Wirth, that in a sense the paragraph reads like this is a problem and these are the possible solutions to the problem.
What it doesn't say is that in the ways in which we previously tried,
the solutions have yielded these outcomes.
It doesn't say that our case, where the caseload has reduced from X to Y now.
Although you just said that we reduced casework and what the ambition is in reducing it further.
So it's, yeah, this is a problem.
These are the solutions.
Pretty textbook answer, not a problem with that.
But there is not for us as a scrutiny committee sufficient material there to say,
you tried this before, this is the scale of success and this is the scale of ambition we'd like it.
I mean, that information isn't there and I wish that we would have that information.
I mean, we could certainly take this report away and see what further information would be useful to report.
I mean, all I would say is this report has always been a kind of, it's an activity report, it's an update report.
It doesn't go into huge granular analysis about every point that's covered in it.
If it did, it would be logistically a challenge to do that for every cycle, and it would be far, far longer.
So it's trying to give you in your overview role sufficient information to ask the right
questions.
Apologies if that sounds simplistic.
But we're happy to take it away, see what more we can say on the things you've highlighted
going forward.
Fantastic.
Councillor Dickerton.
I was just going to say that you've got to see this is what's happening and then later
down the line will come a paper, this is what we're going to do about it.
As you can tell, we're overspent, so we have to go away and try and work out what we can
do to mitigate the overspending.
There is a challenge here in the sense that, as Dave has outlined, we might in fact be
in a position whereby we are reducing temporary accommodation.
But in the appendices you see that that isn't helping costs.
So the price of nightly paid is going up.
For the transparency of this committee, we will be going to central government and saying,
look, this isn't just affecting us.
This month alone we'll spend 90 million pounds on temporary accommodation as London boroughs.
This is a ludicrous waste of money that could be going into delivering the thing that we all know is more important,
which is the supply of safe, secure, long -term social accommodation.
So we are 100 % going to have to come back to you and
say these are the measures we're taking to try and get these budgets under control.
But as temporary, if nightly pay continues to increase at the rates at which it is,
you could have a phenomenal pipeline of social housing
and still see your budgets go up, so it's a bit of a trap.
I think it's about saying,
we'll control the budget by reducing the reliance
on likely accommodation.
It's unrealistic ambition to have,
because essentially, it's a demand side,
which is the big problem.
The fact that supply is very small,
and demand side is then creating a huge variety of new ways of housing people in almost dormitory
situations.
It's not good, but it's not an ambition that we can really deliver outcomes on.
Thank you.
Councillor Wrigley.
Yeah, just because this meeting is being streamed and people might watch it, I just wanted to
come back on something that Councillor Govindia mentioned at the beginning of that statement,
because I want to keep us honest.
So you made a statement about that we struggle to keep hold of housing staff.
And I want to, I specifically remember the churn data of 11%, because the industry I
work in has an almost 40 % churn rate.
I remember thinking, wow, that's super low and that just feels like personal circumstances
and people actually just needing to move around, live in different places.
So I just want to keep us honest on this 11 % has, that it's not, I've not finished.
This isn't, you're going for your, you're going for your button.
Oh
Okay, um first of all can you apologize for that last statement?
I don't need to be told by a man not to get worked up
I'm not going to apologise because I don't get it.
OK, don't tell me to relax.
I don't appreciate that coming from a man.
So, yeah, I just want to make sure that we're not creating an exaggerated narrative
of having a problem with retaining staff.
I would like that noted.
Chair, just to be real about this,
I've raised this issue about creating posts several times in this committee.
And each time we've been told there's a need in order to fulfil the kind of ambitions the council has, and that's fine.
We have had difficulties in recruiting to those posts.
Now, the scale of that difficulty I cannot put my finger on,
but we certainly in the answers offices have said that we have had difficulties in filling the posts that have been created.
We've also had difficulties in retaining the staff once recruited.
Again, I can't put my finger on the scale of it.
All I am saying is that this ambition in this paper saying recruiting more staff will solve
the problem, it seems in the past we've not actually been able to recruit sufficiently
and successfully and then having done so, not so necessarily held on to staff.
It doesn't matter whether it's 11%.
All I'm saying is then asking that more recruitment might help the problem doesn't really fill
me with confidence.
It may fill other members with confidence, but it doesn't fill me with confidence.
So I think there are three different aspects, well there might be more actually and Dave
can come in, but on the staff, the program of staff hires and increasing the support
for the service. The first kind of immediate priority for the health of the department
was caseload. So the extra staff was to help work down the caseload. So once you can manage
the caseload, and even when the caseloads are slightly managed, as you have been noted
in these papers for years, the demand keeps increasing. So you're kind of treading water
a little bit. Then the kind of second part is the challenging nature of the work. So
it's emotionally draining, it's very difficult.
You're dealing with people who are having
probably the worst time in their lives ever,
and you're dealing with many of them,
and you're offering bad news,
which is always a very difficult thing to do for a job.
And then there's the increased pressures
from the supply side, so the amount of chasing
that you're doing to try and find the properties,
internal repairs for the client themselves,
the need for people to transfer
because you're often putting people out.
So I think it's a kind of combination of things that we could,
we all know if there was unlimited money,
having lots more people doing it would probably make things easier for people doing it.
And for the people who are coming to us in the need for help, just we just kind of know that instinctively.
We don't have that unlimited resource. I think that the question about how,
you know, no department is going to work worse in this in this council with the revenue to capital balance
that we have from having more staff. Like we all know that this has always been quite a lean mean
machine of a council and that you know that we know that the structures there. I do think the
pressures that the staff run though you know if you if you visit the office you know I've
regularly done this I sometimes take clients in there is never a day where something quite
significant has not happened in that office it's a difficult environment and so I think part of the
idea that recruiting more staff will be successful in us trying to
Instead of someone on the last minute on a Friday finding that you paid accommodation
That is really higher having had the 40 minutes because it was spread to find something that was a bit cheaper seems
Rational like you say there will be a cutoff point. I don't think we as a counselor
There's no I have no anxiety about this being a bloated department. That is this is a department that is working flat out
I think is that is that fair to say Dave?
perhaps unsurprisingly, I would agree.
The thing I would also say is that I'm not sure
it's a necessary conflation of the number of posts created
with difficulties, if there are difficulties in recruiting
and retaining staff.
The fact is our demand has gone up very significantly
over the last 10, 12 years, and particularly post -COVID.
So it's kind of chicken and egg, isn't it?
You know, if we get more people come to us and we want to provide a reasonable service to them,
you will need more people to do that.
And that's the same for, you know, our neighboring boroughs, our boroughs all around London.
So if every borough is looking for more staff, you're likely to get more turnover,
particularly if people want to move to be closer to home, post -COVID, flexible working arrangements, etc.
And we've said many times at this committee that these jobs were never easy,
but in the last few years, and if you talk to the staff they will tell you the level of
vulnerabilities they're seeing amongst the families representing to us. If you talk to someone who's
worked in the field for 10, 15 years, they will tell you it is much, much more difficult than it was.
And so people will, you know, not for hardworking, you know, committed people,
after a few years will think, actually I want to change, and you can't blame them.
So there's lots of will, lots of parts to this, I think is what I'm saying.
And I think that, you know, we'd like to pass on our thanks to the staff working in those conditions
in a really bad situation that we have at the moment.
So if that can be passed on, Mr Werther.
Okay, councillor, mr. Graham. Thanks chair. I mean following on from what councillor
Govindia has said I think basically we know this your staff work extremely hard
having been chairman myself working with staff going around council estates and
issues like that and there are challenges of course I think where we
would possibly be coming from how are you going to be recruiting staff what is
the strategy so that we can be sharing your journey rather than having this silly conversation
when we know more staff are needed for the actual casework that you're coming across.
So that is a comment.
My question is about, I know the government is bringing in around the third amount of
money coming to the boroughs and as regards to I think buying of properties or stuff like
that.
And I'm just wondering are you looking at buying properties to with government money
which is coming through with grants creating all sorts of grants?
Mr. Wirth.
Thank you, Councillor.
We have been allocated I think 16 million under the local authority housing fund which is for
Purchase of properties that's part of the HRA budget which will be covered in the next report
kind of board figure
56 I guess
properties and
Actually on that
Information where where would you be consider buying it outside the borough or would it have to be inside the borough? I?
Decisions about what properties are going to be purchased will fall to the the VAMS department VAMS team
Value and asset management team and which falls under place these days
So they're they're obviously experts in terms of identifying properties and negotiating the price
I mean predominantly I think they're looking for properties on on on our states
Thank you any more questions
Can I ask the committee to note the report for information?
Thank you for the question.
We have had some exchanges at the time and I did also with Councillor Givinion, I suspect
that this issue will feature, I'm sure, at the council meeting in terms of the broader
response.
Just to reassure you that in terms of the housing officer's response with our own
traveller site, we did get down, we did communicate with them, we did open up a rest centre on
the Henry Prince estate and we also booked three nights' worth of temporary accommodation
in the hotel in case any of them actually needed or wanted to be rehoused.
As it happened, none of them took that offer up.
It was it was a distressing time for the whole community around I think because the smoke blew across from one bar to another and at times it was genuinely quite frightening to behold.
Those been a big review around the fire brigade's involvement and stuff was stood down on Sunday evening by the fire brigade.
They're responsible for any large scale potential evacuation.
obviously, that wouldn't be something that a council would embark on unilaterally, but
we did make provision in recognition of the fact that the Traveler's site in particular
was vulnerable to it, and that was there for than in the circumstances.
And as we said as well, that the Traveler's site is right next to, you know, there's been
big problems in the past over a long period of time.
This thankfully was fairly short, but they've had problems over a number of years and they've
had a real difficulty getting that addressed by the Environment Agency.
Graham is really talking about the budgetary impact of it rather than the immediate response
and were there any reasons why we're looking at the budget differently.
So, can we ask the committee to note the report for information?
Yeah, okay, good.
Okay, so we're on to item number seven, which is the HR Business Plan update.

7 HRA Business Plan Update (Paper No.24-270)

Mr. Davies?
Thank you, Chair.
This report provides an update of the Housing Revenue Account Business Plan, which is presented
to the Housing Committee each year and looks at future income and expenditure projections
relating to the council's housing stock.
The update starts with the previous HRA business plan which was approved by committee in January
2024 when rents and budgets were last set and the overall budget or framework was last
approved.
This has now been updated for all approved changes since then which includes the final
end of year position for 23 -24, approved budget changes and latest forecasts of income and
expenditure.
The report recommends new HRA capital budget variations totaling $8 .25 million, which is
set out in table 16 of the covering report, and resets the cash flows between years of
the entire capital programme.
The total investment now stands at $563 million over the next four years, which is shown in
detail in Appendix A. The report sets out how this investment is proposed to be financed,
which is mainly a mix of reserves and borrowing, but with now a significant reliance on grant
funding.
The report then sets out the revenue projections within the business plan and looks at the
various risks and financial pressures.
Finally, the report focuses on reserve projections for future years.
The graphs show that balances are expected to drop over the next 10 years when more borrowing
is required to finance the capital expenditure of new delivery of development and then that
levels remain relatively stable over the remainder of the business plan term.
Overall this report confirms that based on the latest estimates the Council's housing
business remains viable in the short, medium and over the long term but does highlight
the continued risks and financial pressures which will require a continued focus to ensure
its long -term viability. And I'm happy to take questions. Thank you Mr. Davies. Any
questions please?
Councillor Givindja. The electric, the voids and the electric rewires. Just think of a
handle on this. So we had 700 voids, they've increased 1072 and expected to go to 1360,
which is kind of doubling the 700 figure. So firstly, is 2 million additional sum enough?
What does the 2 million then, in a sense, what's the overall budget for electric rewires after the
million added to it.
And are we talking about the void property needing just
electrical rewiring?
Is there other works that will be needed to the void property
so that it can be available for letting?
So why electric rewiring being singled out
are not other works?
I mean, I just need to try and understand what's what here.
So the two million is the total budget for the electrical rewires.
So it's not an additional sum?
Sorry, Councillor Kivindji, can you turn your mic off, please?
Oh, sorry.
It's an additional sum, total additional, yeah.
So we were expecting possibly nearly 1 ,400 voids to be completed this year,
but it is very difficult to predict the exact number.
That figure, I think, is based on the number that we've completed so far already this financial
year.
And since this paper was written, the number of new voids coming in has slowed fairly significantly,
so we may well come in at a lower number than that over the – at the end of the year,
so have completed fewer voids.
And if that's the case, then I'd expect there to be a corresponding reduction in the
number of rewires required and the amount that we'd spend on that.
Was in a sense, apart from say the property becomes a void, electric rewiring gets done,
that's quite right to do when the property is empty. What else needs to be done to that
property as well? And that doesn't seem to feature here. Is it just electric rewiring will be
sufficient to bring that into letting stock? No, there's the void rewire would be part of a kind
of a suite of normal void works, I suppose,
that could include decorating new kitchens and bathrooms.
And that will vary depending on what
the condition of the void property
is when it becomes vacant.
The void rewire is usually prompted
by an electrical test being undertaken by the void
contractor.
And then if it fails that test, that will then often
prompt a rewire being required.
So it will vary really from property to property
as to whether a rewire is required and then also what additional associated works might
need to be undertaken to return the property to a relatable condition.
That kind of raises this kind of issue about safety of rewiring.
If only when a property is void that the electrical certificate reveals the need to rewire, does
Does it suggest that the property would fail that test when it's occupied, but only that
failure becomes only visible when the property becomes empty?
Not necessarily.
Sometimes it relates just the age of the electrical system in place and the recommendation is
for it to be rewired while the property is vacant
as a sort of opportune time to do it.
And obviously, as you say, to make sure it's safe
for the incoming tenants.
We do have a program of electrical testing going on
in our talented properties to make sure
that they all have a valid electrical inspection certificate
for the past five years.
So that will pick up on any remedial works
that might be required in our talented stock
while residents are still living there.
which is in the summary box on page 33 in the penultimate paragraph.
It talks about unquantified cost of decarbonization and fire safety,
creating a pressure on the budgets, I suppose.
Presumably, the fire safety is an absolute priority.
It's not a competition with that thing.
And presumably this is something that we will get more detailed report in due course when we deal with the Grenfell report.
Very much so.
Councilor Rigby.
Couple of questions.
The first one is on page 16 of 19.
It's the borough wide estate bin storage improvements, which are really welcome
And I'd love to hear some more about what kind of
Developments what kind of improvements would be coming through and then the second one is on the playground refurbishment
I'm really pleased to see so much money being put against
play
And I was wondering if the play some of the improvements were for the Henry Prince estate
After being a counselor there for four years one of the things that I know the residents really would have loved to have seen
Changes whoever designed it thought it'd be a good idea to have like one play item in a pen. So if you want
If you could all watch one child play with one item and then you have to move through the car park to the next
Play pen and I know it was something that they'd all say it would be just great if we just had one one playground
If that was included in that or it could be in the future.
Thank you.
So on the refuse bin enclosures, refuse and recycling bin enclosures, we had a paper come
to committee, I think it was towards the end of last year, where we had approval for capital
spend across nine priority estates that we chose.
A bit of a fair spread across the borough but also states that we felt needed additional
improvement works to help improve the recycling rates but also to improve the aesthetics of
them.
So enclosing the recycling and refuse bin enclosures obviously improves the look.
We also think it reduces fly tipping in those areas and the side loads that you often see
beside them.
So we've gone through the procurement process now.
We have a contractor lined up.
We have placed orders for bins.
So far some of the Alton and the Lennox estates which are two of the priority estates and
we have scoped out the Donington and Rollo and the Winstanney and York Road estates as
well.
So you will start to see these bin enclosures appear on those estates over the next few
months and then on the rest of the priority estates as well.
And our intention is to bring another paper forward probably sometime next year to look
additional 10 estates to roll those
improvements out on.
So you will start
seeing those binning closures popping
up across the borough.
Your second question about play
improvements.
Our estate services team
are responsible for looking after
and maintaining
the play areas on our housing
estates.
They undertook an audit
of all our play areas
towards the end of last
year and
basically prioritised which
ones
were most in need of
improvement.
I can't remember off
hand but I think
I must say whether the Henry print is on there, but I do understand the situation talking about it is a sort of
I'd say the unusual arrangements isn't it with lots of small play areas. So
What I would say at the moment is that the budget that's allocated
Would not go far across all of the playgrounds that we currently have so we're looking at
possibly other
things such as end seal funding
to see whether we can use some of that on our housing estates to improve players and
I will take away your comments about the Henry prints and see what improvements we can implement
there.
Thank you.
There is that big development happening next door so it would be brilliant if some of the
money from the developers could go to us.
There is a playground at the back of the Henry prints but it is also nice for people to be
able to look out and see the kids playing at the front.
I appreciate that.
Any more questions?
Councillor Ayers.
Quick question about the windows in the Alton estate.
What material are you, are we renewing the windows in?
I believe it's going to be slimline UPVC, but I will double check that and come back
to you.
I mean, I take it, is this part of the listed Alton estate?
It is, yes.
But they can't be UPVC then.
Sorry.
Like I say, I will have to check that, but I think there's more to do with the design
of the material as to what they're going back in.
Okay.
Can you let me know?
I can.
Thank you.
As well on the material as well, I think we need a definitive answer on that as well.
Councillor Kishane?
I suppose it is less of a question but really just drawing out a couple of interesting sentences
in the conclusion on page 37.
The report highlights the external challenges faced with higher levels of inflation and
increasing interest rates on the borrowing required to finance the Council's development
plans.
The business plan continues to be based on a raft of assumptions which if varied can
have a significant effect on available resources.
I suppose one way of looking at that is, as a council, we're being realistic about the
economic landscape.
Another way of looking at it is that's basically saying that we are taking a bit of a gamble
with this and we don't know if this business plan will ultimately be viable.
And it's interesting that that's sort of hidden away in the conclusion.
What I would like to see is those risks being acknowledged perhaps more explicitly in the
I think that would be a lot more transparent.
I think that would be a lot fairer on residents as well.
It seems that there is a lot of risk entailed in this business plan and I think the risk
deserves a little bit more than a couple of sentences in the conclusion.
Thank you.
As you can imagine, the business plan is a huge spreadsheet, just to drill down into
the detail of it.
And obviously, as part of what we do is we flex the assumptions within it just to see
what the impact would be over a 30 -year period.
Now something like, I don't know if we've seen before, foregoing a rent increase in
year one has a massive impact on income levels for the duration of the plan.
So that's why we have to say it's built on a raft of assumptions, and that's why we,
you know, we –
It's also to do with the borrowing as well.
It's a whole multitude of things.
I mean, inflation, borrowing, rent increases, expenditure, rent arrears, there's so many
different levers within the business plan that can individually have an impact.
And what we're trying to do is put together a projection, a prudent projection that's
viable and, let's be fair, beyond three years, it's a lot of guesswork in any way in terms
of the inflation projections.
All we can really use is Treasury estimates, Bank of England estimates on interest rates.
They're the experts and that's what we rely on as part of our ongoing, forward -looking
financial planning.
But, yeah, I mean, as you get further away from year one, the deviation on this could
be significant either way.
What we present is a viable position and, obviously, every year we move on a year, we
review, take stock of the position and review it for the next 30 years.
So it's an iterative process.
I wouldn't want to be here in 30 years' time and be judged on whether I've got the imbalance
right or not because it could be anywhere.
Based on current assumptions, the raft of assumptions we use within the business plan,
that's the position we're presenting.
Councillor Dickerson.
Yeah, I mean, I was going to say that obviously there are the things that are unknown that
happen, cladding crises and those kinds of things.
In terms of the borrowing, the borrowing is actually one of the most known and measurable
things because we'll borrow a fixed interest rate.
So we can actually factor that in fairly certainly for the long term.
It's the external things that come up that damage us.
And I mean, if you look at the appendices, page 75 and page 74, I mean, you will see
that the ones with housing revenue account is given the ambitions and given the policies
of the current administration, which are ambitious and progressive and involve taking out loans.
We have one of the healthiest housing revenue accounts in the country.
I mean, there is, if you compare to other borrowers, we're in a really, really fortunate
position now.
And aren't we making good use of it?
And the papers we've just had previously
have all been showing the general fund cost
of not delivering the homes that take the pressure off
of temporary accommodation.
And the borrowing is, in many ways, how we are funding that.
And we never go above 10 % on interest repayment,
which is phenomenal.
In terms of the percentage of the overall budget,
I saw Mr. Austin just flick his head in nervousness.
uh...
the every time i see these papers as a result as a desert
there is a scum certainty that we know that we have uh... really really healthy
financially secure position in the house in the new york out
and as i've said many times this borrowing will end up generating income
for the council to continue its repairs in its program of works
i i i i i i i i i i know where i think this conversation is about to head but i
I just wanted to make that very clear because I think the previous papers show that this
is precisely the time and for those of you who are a bit newer to the council, I was
arguing that we should do the borrowing prior to interest rates rising and I feel like if
the administration had listened to me, we would have got one hell of a deal on the public
works board loan and we'd all be very happy right now.
So that's something to reflect on I'd say.
The thing is as well that you know because of the rents repayment and that it is all factored in and it will
Repayable this isn't like thorough counsel for instance who borrowed you know who?
You know would bust basically on a punt this isn't a punt
This is underlaid with income coming in after the homes are built, so it's a much more solid
Yeah, it's not speculative. It's much more solid ground than the other boroughs
Well, I think if you're building a shopping centre or you're buying some dodgy soda panels
as Faruk did, then I think you're going to put yourself in a much higher predicament
than we're looking at at the moment.
Not defending anyone or castigating anyone, just making an observation that it is always
is a claim that the borrower will say,
I know I can pay it back.
I don't think the demand for council housing in Wandsworth
is going to collapse to the point at which we
can't collect rent.
I just have to put that on record to be minutied.
Well, to start this debate, and I'm
saying the difficulty is going to be
about building at the scale at which you've set yourself
the ambition, because the failure to build
will effectively be one of the risks
that the officers will deal with.
And as figures show, the GLA has not been able to perform according to their promises.
And there's a real risk that this council too may fail to deliver according to its ambitions.
So, but it's a reality.
Ravi, what's the biggest challenge?
What's the biggest challenge for me delivering council homes over the next four years on
the sites that we've chosen?
Well, get your conversations with people right.
I'm just saying, Ravi, you know, we want to deliver.
You know we want to deliver.
We're not a council that is against delivery.
Getting your conversation with the people
in whose neighborhoods you want to build right
is perhaps your biggest challenge.
It's quite challenging when there are leaflets
with a giant tower block that we haven't even consulted on
being delivered through doors.
That's because you haven't spoken there.
Can I break this conversation?
I'm just going to come in.
If the leaflet goes in before we've even had
the public consultation or motions are being brought forward
before we've even had the public consultation,
it makes me think that there's not a good faith,
genuine conversation about the delivery of council housing.
But I know that you might be different from the rest of your group on this so I'm gonna leave
No, no leadership and new condition and everyone's happy. We want to build council homes great
Okay, councilman screw
Thank you chairman
Going back to the conclusion
Question I'm looking at housing stock alongside the council's current development and regeneration plans
Having experienced that awful fire and in a very practical,
pragmatic way, and having not read but read as much as I can,
the Glenville government report on housing of all the weaknesses
or whatever which created this dreadful fire so long ago,
I'm looking at how in housing will you proceed re -applications tied into the potential new
bills and regeneration, you know, when you think of the local plan and other bodies which
will have to be put in place and the changes that will have to be put in place to actually
tie in with the regulations.
Are we going to bring a report later on Grenfell?
So we probably park that until then.
To November committee we will bring a report on the most recent Grenfell inquiry report
and the implications and we can include something on the implications for the Homes for One
the program as well.
Any more questions?
Councillor Varafaraj.
Thank you.
I just have a question on the cost of decarbonisation.
Has the council ever received adequate funds to carry out the decarbonisation work?
For example, like government grants or anything that could be entitled to?
We have bid for some government grants, but what I would say about the government grants
is they only ever pay for a small percentage.
So normally we've got to then set aside budget
to pay for the other part of that, normally 75 % of it.
But we are in the process of entering into a consortium bid
with London councils, other London councils,
for the next round of social housing decarbonization fund.
So we're hoping to be successful in that
and we've got a few hundred properties in that bid.
Fabulous, any more questions?
Okay, can I ask that we support the two recommendations in this paper?
Yep, okay, fantastic.
Okay, so now we do have a clear gallery, but we have to –
I'm pleased with it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They've already done the paper, it's DRA.
Yes, you have, yeah.
I have to tie it from today.
Yeah, no, indeed.

5 Grounds Maintenance Contract Award (Paper No.24-268)

And we're very sorry to see you go, Marlene, but we're going to have to –
I want to let the committee know Marlene has been representing us at the Arch all day at
the Tenants Conference.
Much appreciated.
Thank you very much.
Can I ask that we take a short break at that particular point as well?
The chair wants another comfort break, unfortunately, so I'm going to have to go.
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Councillor Givin, are you okay?
Of course, Marlene.
Are you okay?
Yes, indeed.
So, if we can reconvene, please.
Now that the chair has been indulged.
Okay.
So, are we, should we take questions on this paper on noncommercial questions or should
we just go straight into the gold paper?
Straight into the gold paper.
Okay, I've got to propose this then.
Under section 100A in brackets 4 of the local government act 1972, members of the public
and press be excluded from the meeting whilst item 17 is being, sorry it's not 17 is it,
5, sorry, item 5 is being considered because it is likely that exempt information as described
in paragraph 3 of part 1 of the schedule 12a to the Act, would be disclosed to them if
they were present.
And it is considered that in all the circumstances of case, the public interest in maintaining
the exemption outweighs the public interest of disclosing the information.
Okay, do I have a seconder?
Thank you.
Okay.
Is it agreed?
Sorry, I'm just saying.
Okay.
Fantastic.
And we have to.

5 Grounds Maintenance Contract Award (Paper No.24-268)

Okay.
We're back now in open session.
So, we have to vote on this.
So, are we all in favor?
Okay, fantastic.
So we've just got a little bit of any other business at the end of the meeting.
Thank you.
I just wanted to update the committee on the fact that the regulator for social housing
has been in contact, as we suspected they would be at some point, and we are now just
starting to commence their inspection.
So, they're coming in to inspect our services to the talented units that we manage across
all of our housing stock.
Many of you will be aware that inspections have been taking place across London and other
parts of the country and we have been preparing for this.
Obviously, the speed of our preparation has changed slightly because they're going to
be probably calling in for their two days towards the mid or end of November.
There's been scope in documents exchange.
We've met the regulator twice with my with my team and we are working hard to ensure
that we can give them all the information that they need.
They will want to come to a housing committee.
They'll want to attend a borough residence forum and there's a whole range of pretty
much everything that we do that they're looking for compliance, fire safety information, building
safety information across everything that we basically do currently.
So full on time for the department.
I mean, I'm confident that we are as well prepared as we can be for it.
Quite stressful, obviously, because there's loads of stuff that we need to do.
There will be a rating probably at the end of this year or beginning of next year that
will range from a C4, which is the lowest to a C1 that no one's got yet.
And quite a lot of the large landlords have been coming out with C3s almost consistently,
the large landlords, both councils and RSLs.
So we would be optimistic that we will do.
I would like to say we're aiming for C1,
but that may be over optimistic.
We will see.
No grading.
This is the first time it's happened,
since it's been introduced with the new social housing
regulator, effectively.
So we will keep you briefed in due course, without a doubt.
And finally, for me, just to say,
I'm going to be away for a relatively short period
of time, because I've had the privilege of being
asked to cover the interim chief executive's role whilst the new chief executive is recruited,
which will take a certain period of time.
So just to let you know that we have arrangements in place to ensure that the housing department
is in safe hands.
And so Mr. Worth, who is at the end of the room, will be acting as the interim executive
director of housing and Kay Willman who you're all very familiar with will be assisting Dave in that
as his deputy so I'm very confident that the committee and the service and the department
is in safe hands until my return and I just wanted you to kind of hear that from me and I will look
forward to coming back to my you know full first love as soon as I can. Good luck to you all.
Yeah, yeah, I think on behalf of the committee, good luck Mr. Rylin, and well done to be considered in that way. Thank you.
Thank you. Any other business? We're okay. Thank you very much. Thank you.