Licensing Sub-Committee - Wednesday 14 August 2024, 7:00pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting
Licensing Sub-Committee
Wednesday, 14th August 2024 at 7:00pm
Speaking:
An agenda has not been published for this meeting.
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councillors.
so the first item on the agenda for the appointment of a Chair if any Councillors would like to nominate someone to take on this position for the evening tonight.
nominate Castle mucus.
I am happy to second that thank you, and assuming that's unanimous all pass over to Councillor me August to chair the meeting, thank you.
thanks Mark who are man welcome everybody to this meeting of the Licensing Sub-Committee which is being held, as we can see as remind meeting the meeting is being webcast and please bear with us if there are any technical issues but fingers crossed there won't be my name is Councillor meerkats I'm chairing this meeting how now invite the other attendees to introduce themselves in the following order, so councillors fast then officers then applicants and then I was making representations, say gosh restarted.
so sorry, I was going to say there's no apologies for absence,
yes, her hello, and I just thought to pass into mention and on a Thursday residents living quite near to the premises in question.
I should probably add that I also have I live about four minutes round the corner.
so yes, I know the area well.
good so agenda item number 4, we will now consider the application for a new premises licence in respect of the premises noticed Hazel's and bow Giardino nights 5 tonight, separate moisture Ride London S-W, 16 6
S J and I will now invite licensed as a holiday in Italy, two apologies Chicago, Michael, can I just the chancellor, with can I just check the Board you're representing plays sorry?
yes, so am I represent ones with tumbled, thank you, I'm just for members' interests it because a first-down Councillor would be unable to test new applications, so I just wanted to confirm confirmed that thank you.
thank you, Michael Turner.
OK, thank you, Chair.
I am glad to hear that there's a couple of Members live close, by which it will help help to explain the first point that I'm going to raise, but before we get to that, as you will have seen, you have to agenda papers for tonight's meeting you have the main agenda.
we have the app with the report, application and the representations, and then you have a supplementary agenda with a letter from the applicant.
I come back to that point, I just alluded to the an issue has been raised by a casual people, so I just wanted to address this festival that if I can refer you to page 35 of your main agenda, he will have a map of the area.
page 36 is a plan that's been submitted with the application for the premises at this is the premises that's been applied, for you'll note on the plan that there's no outside area at the front of the premises included that is not being applied for with this application. I believe the premises does put tables and chairs out to, so I have confirmed with Highways, and this is a patch or private land, it's not public highway at the premises is permitted to put tables and chairs would be able to licence said that that matter is not being considered by you today. The premises would be able to continue using the the area outside
then, turning back to the application.
and the Supplementary agenda you will have seen a letter from the applicant, and that is reducing the hours being sought for the application see application before you now is for the sale of alcohol for consumption on and off the premises between the hours of 10 am to 10 30 pm every day.
and then we've opening hours from 7 am to 11 pm every day
the original application
included opening times until helpless one Friday and Saturday, which you will have seen mentioned in some of the representations, and during the consultation period there were a, or worse some additional conditions that were agreed by the applicant and, as a result of that there has been no representations from responsible authorities.
and also as a result of the amendments, some of the representations that were originally made by local residents have been withdrawn, but there are a number of representations were made in not been withdrawn and though you saw in your agenda starting from page 27, and I believe we do have one or two people here today to speak to you about those representations as well.
finally, Chair, I just point out the conditions that have been proposed with the application are included in your report at starting from page 8
those are matters that are being proposed by both in the application and during the application process, some of the things that are relevant, so I will just point out, particularly in relation to the tables and chairs outside a number of the conditions, would cover how outside areas must be used as on the licence plan there is an outside area at the rear of the premises but the conditions proposed a more general so they just say any outside area.
in particular, I would point you to.
condition.
sorry on page 8, condition 4 to 6, the alcohol consumed in outside covered and uncovered areas shall be consumed by hatred and seated at tables all outside areas must be closed in cleared of customers by 9 p them and also that the licence holder would take appropriate measures to ensure that customers outside,
leave the area quietly and in an orderly fashion.
okay, thank you, Chair, and I'm happy to answer any questions if any, any questions from Councillor colleagues.
shaking of heads or tails and I moving on then to the
next items are there any questions of clarification on anything that's been stated, as reminded by the applicant and representations, will have a chance to address subcommittee, and this should be for any if you need any clarification on something, and it's been said by Tony Romo,
but Robert, you've got a hand that sounds like you up first, and thank you very much for any Yaqoub.
there's also.
the Nicolaes is rare.
the application applied for would be covering the how premises are shown in the plan, so why are you back to page?
on page 36 of the agenda, has Khalid plan sharing the premises that sets out the restaurant area, a shop area and also rear garden area, so with regards to the license cabbage, the points at which alcohol is sold alcohol be soaked from inside the premises only that the application is made for both on sales which would be inside the premises and the officer was for people to take outside the premises.
thank you, Guy, banks yellow lines along similar lines, actually, just unfortunately our paper copy of this is a map is in black and white, the colossal terribly helpful.
so I just wanted to just be really clear about the back area, on the plan on page 36.
the pale grey area with the doors going out is the is the COVID Ceta, but there's two other areas beyond that which is slightly darker grey, Mohammad which says rear yard, is that part of the licensing area as well, or is that separates just because it's not shown only again on the outline map it excludes those areas on page 35,
it is difficult to answer that because I've got a colour copy as or not, I'm not quite sure what shaded what shade of grey it's gone.
there's one area directly behind the doors.
patio doors that open out onto the covered area and then beyond that, there's another area that designated rear yard and another bit of rear yard along the edge of the adjoining, half of the premises on the other side which is slightly darker grey, which presumably is the bit I'm not clear as to whether that's come on the end of the year, I think I understand what you mean to say the whereas a passionate doors are and I'm sure the applicant be able to help you as well on.
on explaining their premises, says the taboo Dawson going out that is marked on the plan, it's been a carpet, seating area beyond that is an open season area everything shown on that plan would be part of the licensed premises it's been applied for.
and also so I just to reiterate, going across to the other, to the the the two premises stretching across the back about both the premises year, though all the way to the wall in effect, yeah yeah, I could actually that's not what's drawn on the map on page 35 by the way,
yes, so on page 35 is.
what's been highlighted, there is just a physical building rises in o'clock boundary.
thank you. That's helpful,
go any further clarification.
OK, I will now invite the applicant addressed the Sub-Committee, and you have five minutes to speak of Jewish questions will be asked, I hope.
thank you, Chair and I've often appeared before this Licensing Sub-Committee in my professional capacity as the Licensing solicitor, but tonight I do so in good company when, as a first-down residents like members of the Committee and I'm helping Daisy tonight right and also play out my left and also aid with the new business,
from your report, you'll know that the premises was previously licensed but more recently operated as I don't daycare and greening shop, spanning across 95 to 97 boys arrived in the fight I pack, you can see that sisters Daisy any have already opened number 95 as a brilliant and charming cafe named after their grandmother, Hazel.
as a like the rest of myself, I'm pleased to sign the business has already proved an extremely welcome asset to our local community. If you are minded to grant the licence, they would like to add a small alcohol offering, alongside the existing cafe business and in particular, during pop up events such as sukkary evenings at painting. Classes will mulled wine during Christmas wreath making classes Leo is hoping to open a small wine bar and restaurant called bulkier deny in the adjoining unit at number 97 and you'll see a fighter, the new fit out at the end of the fighter packed where we're sitting now to give you a better understanding of the looked fail and very modest size of the unit at Daisy, and they are here in their annual disposal times for any detailed queries you may have about the concept and plans, but in respect of the scale back to the application itself Chair, I hope that you have had an opportunity to read the applicant's letter to the objectives that sets out some background and importantly, volunteers a significant reduction in the Alice to 10 30 pm alcohol 11 o'clock clothes
and it was never layering days, his intention to run a noisy late night bar until one I am they submitted the application themselves, it was their first time doing so, and due to a misunderstanding, I applied for one, I am following advice from the Licensing Authority about occasional light reckoning, for example on New Year's Eve,
so, in addition to the reduction in hours, Mr hooks has outlined that the applicant is readily agreed to all of the extra conditions with the police, ironically, Health and trading Standards officers set out at pages out tonight.
of your report briefly on policy chair, the reduced hours are well within and less than the recommended hours set out in section 9 of your new policy, and they amended operating schedule of conditions, promote the licensing objective policies sections 19 to 20,
so we hope that the significant reduction in hours in strict licence conditions comprehensively addressed the outstanding concerns set out in the representations, but the team do recognise the nature of the first down area and are committed to making a positive addition to the community of which they are proudly apart. They understand their responsibilities to upright harmoniously alongside local residents without causing any disturbance whatsoever. So for these reasons, Che we ask you to please grant the application with reduced hours and the robust conditions ensuring the promotion of the licensing objectives. Doing so will give this fledgling independent business an opportunity to provide a new, attractive community hub for the first down in an otherwise vacant commercial unit. That, for so long as local residents, have wanted to see become a long term, successful and responsibly operated local business for all, enjoy with our families, friends and neighbours at year, I'm hoping I've got about a minute left, I'm just going to hand you over to Daisy, if I may just have had to tell you a bit more about Hazel's
yes, a week, and I can for three weeks now and as a cafe, sui saving pastries and coffee paninis are crepes or a kind of unique selling point, so all our crepes are named after famous women because the companies run by me and my sisters
my poor dad's stuck in the kitchen making the sausage begets as well, so it's very much a family operating
business, and yet we we, I'm actually an actress in my other life, so it all came from when the west end was shot and I couldn't perform, we then bought a crepe machine or Facebook marketplace and started trading and markets and is kind of spirit Mayor, so we do lots of wonderful family events, lots of immersive Halloween, scavenger hunts, something called ding-dong doorstep, where we bought father Christmas and the adds to the doorstep during lockdown, and you couldn't go to courteous and were wanting to try and incorporate that within the cafe. Hence why it would be lovely if we could open in the evenings and serve a small alcohol offering like the reef making or sipping pink night candlemaking. That's that's the kind of idea we're going for again very family community based ideas. So again we would just love the opportunity to be able to offer that as another option peculiarities, the unfortunate suppliers, because you have any specific questions. We had one on this sort of business as well. Thank you to Frankie, Goes
so in our life and up to questions from the Sub-Committee for the applicant.
therefore.
thank you Chair, yes, J, thank you really pleased to have in it is thriving, so Shah my question really is, I've got motion idea about what the licence is false, pull these ad hoc events and community based defence, but I'm interested in knowing about how the small wine bar fits into that and whether that would be working in tandem or whether these would be very separate. You know sort of like to abolish at 2.00 different tools to do is different venues. I'll let Leo talk to you a little bit more about the wine bar restaurant offering an amendment Councillor, but yes, it essentially as a joint venture partnership same lies with sitting behind as a connecting door, connects the two and
but also they're gonna be quite separate as well, albeit working in tandem together, sort of looking fail is quite different, and I'll hand you over to layout just to take why he decided to launch this business and what it hopes to achieve with a hello everyone happy to be here this evening and I'm happy to hear that some of you live or very close by and I hope when I open you'll be welcome to have a glass in some Italian food.
so my wife had the previous in Italy or restaurant in the idea, my main business, its landscape, gardening.
in
I wanted to do something for her because she loves food, she loves cooking and she said that she would love to have a restaurant, so with my knowledge and landscaping in with acknowledging on Italian cuisine high, we wanted to open a restaurant in this nicer community where I work,
every day as a gardener along the this, that's why I chose this dislocation, so we added a, we are hoping to open a restaurant that serves a food and wine additionally.
thank you any follow up, sir.
I'm not sure now, thank you.
Councillor Humphreys.
thanks Jack hello, everyone. Thank thanks for that into that was really helpful. I'll I'll like Charlton, divers about a little bit confused by the the the the dual personalities that we've got here on an offer, so the a great that you can cooperate and get some nice guys get, I'd appreciate you know many hands make light work of that kind of stuff, but there are two quite
while the sound of distinct separate businesses can be operating on the same things that will, how will that working really well, will it be that connecting door will be open, all the time will go to one that through from one bit the other, how does that kind of mix between the two different things work and the outside space is that meant to be, if not the idea that again to both use that space we will share that space, how the practicalities of that actually going to work in two different businesses combining, I guess it first of all I guess from them.
illegal perspective, Councillor Ann you'll note from the application form, but Leo in Daisy have applied jointly cited the joint premises licence holders in terms of accountability.
practically speaking, at the moment bases operation is primarily daytime, whereas lies will open at both towards the end of the day said is probably going to be notch interaction on a day-to-day basis, but I think, for example, some of the events, whether it's the SIP and painful that rate making that's when there may be a bit more of a connection that the battle you might be able to see just behind that door that connects connects the two of them.
yeah yeah.
Minister in the Guardian, got them so collecting, and it'll fans so lesbian, gay kind as he hasn't been open, yet some of our families, when we are kind of when we've got too many people in our garden, the families have been jumping in and using liaise garden because we decided that we wanted to keep it quiet, collaborative intensive space and sharing what we have al-Qaida.
that makes it a bit clearer, thank you, so you have the courage, this though in the conditions that you've you've signed up to so far is talking about on the outside space, subject at some slightly more contentious area, the the outside area and evenings and things like that that is going to be only seated but there is no indication of the plans of how many comments you'll be able to do and how many tabled family chairs out there in the outside space Andy inside space.
I'll them at handouts are broadly I faced by my counsellor would look bad capacity, his side admitted to Daisy, so the uncovered area of the premises has two tables or fourth chair, then the cupboard area has.
it single table, so we're 16 chairs.
insight where it's the closed data with the barriers they are the 20 sitting area.
20 chairs, in or outside, on the public road, there will be six it good areas.
6 Jersey.
that's all on your side of that, including Daisy saw, does not Jacqueline my sank that so, and that's what sorry so, what's the total of, though not altogether, then in quantum title number of couples?
around the 48.
I think I think that that's on maxim yet or very occasionally when the weather permits yeah, that many people, but in practice that's not gonna happen very often, and also a lot of that capacity disappears at 9.00 when the external areas close and then I shall I just want to just trying to get a handle on the on the on on the scale yet it costs and in terms of our side we've got fatty three cars in total in the garden in the front and inside and if we minus the front and rear garden and we're left with about 18 to 20 inside.
no, OK, thank you, thank you that that's really helpful.
nothing else for me at the moment, Councillor Malcolm.
Robert, you have a question, yes, thank you get the picture.
it was well the
cheers mentioned the front again, those mentioned fixtures in the
and man standing into the licence is not intended to look like that.
the and repair and agree to what Mr Hawkes said during his introduction.
the plan at Page 35, the report shows the external areas as part of their own premises Denise meaning that any supply of alcohol to customers in that area constitutes an NCO.
of alcohol.
the area at the front, which is private land but is not shown on the licence plan on 35.
is going to be serviced by way of an of sale of alcohol because it will be consumed off the premises plan, as shown on page 35, so much in the same way that if you see people standing outside a pub where the only people standing outside the premises for they won't have any doubt that a traditional pub licence people standing outside a pub that's that's by way of an Oxo and that's how it's going to manage here, but one thing that used hopefully came out to the earlier discussion is that the conditions for 5 and 6 on page 8 of the report apply equally to all external areas, whether it's an officer Lauren alongside.
follow up.
I, I'm I'm still a bit confused because.
donkey's years I did get a small amount, Licensing work, myself and my record of settled, but always.
the consumption away Rennes', so I would I kind of expected the licence application to extend the front if alcohol will be served in containers provided by the restaurant.
as I think Mr Bishop raised his hands, I'll let him.
stepped in happy to assist as well
we can't hear you, guy.
schoolboy error, holidays, right to K, A so basically what is happening is.
mix-up, perhaps in terms of the idea of consumption being a licensable activity, it's not and where you've got property that are owned not by the Council, I do not outweigh, it can be used for that consumption off the premises okay and that's what Jackie's referring to there, so that's what's happening in terms of of sales, obviously things to do with capacities and normally dealt with by the Fire Authority under the regulation related to that and art really normally considered by the Committee.
but obviously the Committee's interested to know the sort of size of the operation so that that's that's not a problem for them to do, but effectively it's it's the outside area, that's not on the plans at the front is there is an area where consumption may may happen, it's not something where it needs to be on the plans because it's
it's consumption, which is not a licensable activity. Okay, I hope that helps a little bit more. It's Sly 64 Act, which I think you would have dealt with Sue position superstition by the 2003 Act made some changes. I have to say I was there to made some changes that have changed things a little bit from the where they used to be in those days, every single thing needed to be planned and mapped and shown and so on, and so on and so forth, and of course they had set hours, whereas you don't nowadays so they. I hope that helps
yes, I was very helpful, thank you.
just to understand, then, if someone wanted to buy a bottle of beer up of the wine or whatever, and get the balance that they will go into the restaurant will be, so whether there will be enough, then it would be the point of sale would be inside alternatively that could be brought to you but it would still be within sight sorry, Mr Speaker, what do you want to say something?
thank you, I'm I'm just wondering if it would help Mr kafala.
and to offer a condition along the lines, except for the designated external area at the front of the premises.
the sale of alcohol for consumption off the premises shall be unsealed containers Ainley
the purpose of that would be to Brett and not that this is possibly, I will Davies plans, but that would future-proof licence to make sure that any licensee couldn't sounds like pints of beer in open containers for people to take away and drink along Murray's arrival taken to teaching Common the ultrasounds would either be Butler when somebody to take home with them or the limited seating at the front.
that very helpful, I wasn't really all keen for African concession just to understand what will be done, and I am from colonialism, can I ask for that to be repeated just I mean, the legal advice can make sure we have is down correctly for the Committee's decision yeah site,
except for yeah, the designated external seating area at the front of the premises you might want to put on noise Road,
yeah
the sale of alcohol.
for consumption off the premises.
yeah shall be unsealed containers out me.
thank you.
thank you Chair.
Councillor Davies,
yeah, I just want to an.
clearly per.
a hypothetical snow wreath at a space there would be the possibility that there might be one evening where we have one of Dati's ad hoc events, and also we have liaised restaurants, which will mean a greater capacity unless applied to general premises and insight will not and I'm just thinking through in those situations is possible that the people who live in the flats,
you know, buffett parade, or very immediately behind.
we will add in a residential nature of the area you know there could be some noise pollution, you know, I do understand the nature of your business, isn't you know to be yeah, for a very noisy bar, but?
I'm just thinking you know for families between seven and nine o'clock, you know they could be disturbed by it and has that been sold three.
thank you, Councillor, we, we actually spoke about that earlier this season, and the first point to note is that things are starting off slowly, so Daisy and Yves have started the daytime offer, focusing on that for the time being, Leo if it's lucky enough to be granted a licence while I've been slowly thereafter, and it will be a slight transition into the full opening period if there are events planned on the same evening, the network just launch into a full programme of events every night of the week, every night of the week, it will start off slowly just to see how things are going and in particular, we wanted to emphasise that they will very much be an open door policy are happy to sit not in the letter that went out last week so that if there is any feedback
from local residents than lay iron Daisy Naver here to listen to the feedback, and if it's a question of controlling people as they leave in high spirits at the end of an evening them, that's that can be looked at to make sure people on or leaving at the same time people are reminded to leave quietly as they do siren and the other points raised in a couple of the representations.
it's very much, Ian I, the Erik very much at neighbourhood and offering site
we are absolutely not expecting people arriving by because people hanging around outside the abyss, because people are just gonna quietly, might, by way, high, hopefully just a few hundred yards away.
yeah
as Llanfaes, thank you, yes, him dragging us back to the back of the building, I'm afraid to get into the France, save a daily, is funny, you mentioned you have a or alternative career in the theatre, I too was an actor once upon a time when I did that.
as the nature of the beast, I spent an awful lot of time doing all sorts of other jobs, because three months of the year was quite a good year right and because we spent a lot of time working in bars and restaurants over the years and I just wanted to check,
I understand, Mr Speaker, talking about a slow start in a gradual build-up, some sort of feel your way, God which all kind of makes a lot of sense, but when, when we're hopefully doing very well and up to bigger numbers, and it is all going great, I'll just it just wondering the 9 o'clock to soften outside the staffing levels you get a have because sometimes if people are sitting there in the summer, they're enjoying themselves and use told him that nine o'clock, it's already going to have to come inside but to carry on drinking and stuff like that will you have just a bit of reassurance here? I think really enough staff on people with experience to understand how to manage those people who make sure it's all very convivial and whatsoever, because, as we all know, it can sometimes be a little bit fractured when people are sitting there. Enjoying themselves does want to make sure we've got plenty of experience and they're not people on hand, you know what they're doing to manage, that would yourself only you, whoever else is going to be working on those shifts, not the GPs and whatever, so we've got plenty of experience cavity to manage that situation sensibly. Yeah, I mean Eve, and I we tack team and we we might be leaving their parents split up to us, so either Yves will be here all I will be here and I think
Councillor based on need, and I'll be able to tiny herein on the older employees will be trained to respect entirely the condition of the licensing. So if there is no people alone on 9 pm slot on one stage there, so I'll try to announce everybody 10 minutes earlier 15 minutes earlier, so I'd give them time to commedia, so will respect those condition entirely and they be ours as amended. Councillor now that they're not Charlie at the terminal hour inside, it allows for a much more gradual transitions and the United. There is going to be advertised as such that people aren't going to be here, expecting an all-nighter, it's very much an early evening can apply South Down and the odd occasion peak lost all outside at 9.00. It's hopefully going to be time for them to
big are thinking about going home anyway. Thank you. That's that's helpful and, as I said, reassuring I, I get the vibe away you're gathering and it's not the kind of like those security at Halden club. Type environment is a very different kind of vibe to the local community which hopefully will be much appreciated by people around this and I understand thank you that is reassuring
Robert
does it on a club also apply to the problem
bucket of yes, yes, the conditions.
for 5 and 6.
Page 8, mainly 4 and 5 page 8 of the main report pack.
and apply equally to the front and the back, namely seated outlay close by and on o'clock.
go any further questions.
I had a question, if I may, an which is just, I suppose, the other yeah, the the noise disturbance that comes naturally Pulse Survey will be waste disposal and recycling, and so on, and I don't feel converted bouts about as I'm just hoping that you know can decipher the recycling can be done at 5.00 in the morning hopefully signals.
now I mean with hedging from that for them, so we definitely won't be staying up any later than necessary an so we can put in place that we we only go and access bins between a certain time that helps or we could leave the recycling in here for the next day and I think it's work added were not aware of any feedback from residents in respect of service in a waste collections are provided, wall housebuilders opening something layout cycle Board and also in a small things, what not to carry out glass bottles lights advised us that but cannot be left until the following morning all done internally.
yeah, that's good to hear, thank you.
okay, any other questions or clarification before we move on.
perfect, I will now invite, I was making representations to address the Sub-Committee, and I guess there will be you Robert.
I thought I think I'm probably the only one, I am quite happy with what's been discussed with the proposed conditions and, as I said in my traditions, I am supportive of the proposal, though I have nothing further to raise.
OK that saves us for minutes and 49 seconds I thank you very much.
did he didn't have any further questions either?
Ok perfect, then, unless there's any further.
the points of clarification from anyone else, and that concludes this part of the meeting.
the decision reasons and any legal guidance given during our discussion follow this meeting and will be confirmed in writing, together with information about any rights of appeal within five working days, and so members of the Licensing, Sub-Committee Democratic Services, Officer and legal advisors will now join a separate confidential meeting to make a decision, guy has his hand up.
sorry.
the applicant does have the ability to do a closing statement if they really want to thank you, Guy, or we're all very grateful for your time and particularly grateful for Mr. Can't fail if it is very far and helpful comments that they had really appreciated we'll be Danny to take up any more of your time, thank you very much for listening.
effect as it thanks very much.