London Heliport Consultative Group - Monday 22 July 2024, 7:00pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

London Heliport Consultative Group
Monday, 22nd July 2024 at 7:00pm 

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and in the absence of the member from the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, it should pass to a Member from Hammersmith and Fulham, so please may I have a nomination for chair.
from anybody.
I am happy I mean I'm happy to nominate.
Councillor Paul right, or at least under sorry, which raise it, which is a first name.
that answers from May I have a seconder, please Kensington and Chelsea.
I'm happy to second, thank you, is that agreed by the group?
that is fine, thank you Chair, you may continue the meeting.
good evening and welcome to the London helicopter Consultative Group.
the if, if people can keep the microphones muted, unless they're speaking, that will be appreciated.
we've dealt with the autumn, which was the appointment of the chair item 2 appointment of resident representatives, this is to consider the nomination for the resident representative ropes.
Maryanna do we have anything on this item?
yeah, so also equally important Jamie, sorry, Councillor sorry, we received requests from all the pre-existing resident reps to stand again, so the forthcoming year, so you'll remember that we updated the terms of reference so that resident reps term background for one year at a time.
and they are able to raise stand
OK, thank you.
you will take that as approved.
thank you.
ITEM 3 declarations of interest this is to receive any declarations of disclosable pecuniary interests or any other registrable interests, and then in known registrable interests, relevant 20 matters to be considered at the meeting, does anybody have any deprivation?
OK, we'll move to item 4 minutes of the previous meeting.
does anybody have any?
issues with the with the previous minutes
so can we approve the minutes of that meeting?
everybody happy with that.
the minutes were approved,
item 5 future of the London heady Port Consultative Group, this is a discussion or to discuss the future of the London heliport Consultative Group.
ITEM 5, do we have anything?
we need to date that we need to discuss and and looked at Jimmy.
nonetheless, was a item requested by Wildcats', so I'll just hand over to him to.
the introducing yesterday evening will, if you evening, thank you well and as you know.
the heliport falls under the threshold required for an Airport Consultative Committee.
being way below the bar that set, I think we've concluded that we don't like the way these meetings Iran, we don't like the way people are appointed.
to the Committee, and so we are going to do what most airports do and take over running our own Airport Consultative Committee meetings going forward, so obviously you're welcome to carry on with this meeting, but we won't be attending it, we will provide the Council with the requisite statistics angry will from time to time ran our own meetings, which we will chair. We will minute and we will distribute the minutes and I think the history. The reason why the LA ports meetings have been run by the Council was in the days before video conferencing like this meetings had to be held
in a physical location and
the Council was best equipped to do that, but nowadays, because they're held online, anybody can hasten
convene a meeting, so I think we want to take control of our our own meetings, we want to control what gets discussed, because if I'm honest, I've sat through a number of these meetings now and it's the same subjects come up time and time again we give the answers in the next meeting exactly the same questions are raised and when and we don't get anywhere with it so
it's not really productive use of our time as far as we're concerned, so that's our position
we won't be attending any more of these meetings, we will convene an airport consultative committee meeting of our own and we'll let you know when we've done that, but I don't think it will be doing more than two a year going forwards.
and if we don't see those as worthwhile, we weren't do any that's that's our position.
thank you is getting a position will.
I, I was here, the last meeting, and this is the first meeting of have changed, so so some of the things you mentioned are not completely clear to me, will you be able to give us an indication was 0 or the today, I would like to deny perhaps in a letter so we can understand that,
I'm not, I'm not intending to write about it and I'm telling you here and now you know I have.
concerns about the way the meetings have been run and operated, they they they go on far too long, they go round in a sort of circular reference, I think Matt and I both agree that we continually answer the same issues again and again and again it seems nobody wants to hear the message I don't really understand the purpose these meetings are actually serving.
in reality.
this was discussed with Michael flowers in a previous e-mail as well, that will wrote to him explaining that we would be look into to do this elsewhere and that's where he decided to put it as an agenda item, it was meant to be on the last made him but unfortunately welcomed might the last one so we adjourned it to this one.
OK so.
0, I can't really add to anything that does are doing it, does anybody else present whoo whoo is anybody else present who would like to say something about this?
Tom
yeah, thank you, Councillor Alexander, so in this new.
self run.
Consultative Committee, who he will you, be consulting with, as a matter of interest, elected representatives, that's it.
represent elected representatives of of whom, while Councillors, that's it.
and Council officers, we won't be do it because we're not obliged to, we won't be going onto residents great level, and you know, partly if I'm honest, your appointment to the the committee is was the final straw that broke the camel's back because he attended as a member of the public who wasn't supposed to speak and ended up at the end of the meeting having been appointed to the Committee which is just the most extraordinary.
perversion of the
of the way our consulted committee meeting is supposed to operate and actually it's for the
it's for the airport to decide who's on their consulted Committee, not not for not for anybody else to decide, so it doesn't sit well with me that we were essentially overrode.
because I am not convinced you've got anything particularly useful to add other than please don't fly near my house, which you know well, if you if you don't want that issue, provision of border has next to the approach path for the Hollybrook because I can't I can't honestly going by your track record as a I would describe as a seizures complainant.
so if we can keep objective, but we want to say because I'm paying objective, the main complaint, 30 odd times in a day to the Halle Board, about noise, he is what would be classed to any other airports or vexatious complaints, so what's he doing on my cathartic committee I don't understand,
okay, although 0 thank you to him.
Councillor Denzil seizure,
and I mean the question I had actually been answered, which was trying to understand Hay, you'd be consultant within, you have answered that question already, so thanks for that.
thank you, does anybody else have anything else so?
term, yes, sir, on thank you, I'm Assistant ch also change the so whats going first, apologies he got there first and are OK, James, please go ahead.
hello, can you hear me?
yeah yeah, OK, I'd just like to say that.
I I looked through the list of complaints this month and I think, as far as I can see, mum was the only complaint made, that was anything that the helicopter could act on and it was the 127th of June about helicopters, cutting the corner on bathrooms.
so I think that that gives some validity to the resident representative, because it's taken several iterations to get to the point where we understand what the issue is and the issue is that single engine aircraft are breaking aviation law if they cut the corner and twin-engine aircraft are breaching the flying neighbourly policy and the heliport itself can't see.
and aircraft from that far away, and I would like to explore at some point.
a permanent solution whereby the heliport could actually see.
that, for maybe, the Council could facilitate a camera, so in that case, I think, from my own perspective, a resonant representative is adding value to the Essex C G, so that's what I've got to say matter, but I mean if if I'm no longer allowed to to be in this position, then I would pass my comments to John Locke, who would represent,
once with tens filled one as far as I can see in in the way, will Kelsey says explained as Ireland the Sunday.
thank you, James, that come come to check clinical Thompson, please.
I think John was before May.
it's fired always Committee on a more general point. So if as officer, so if people have, the Committee want to have their say first, unhappy with that, I think, from my point of view, just to say I, I have also felt a few of these meetings and has been occasionally not super relevant to me or inefficient. It's being good, I I've learned something from none that I think it may be possible to set something up the the resident representatives to talk to the Councillors and then the councillors to feed input to a meeting if that would be more efficient for the Helicon, so I'm open to open to some some routed restructuring if we can still get the appropriate feedback to the residents. So I'm happy to talk to Caroline separately and say what's the best way to manage this
thank you Chair the the that actually sounds more coalescence below the Councillors talking to local residents.
it it does have got a very good all day and it just the only time it breaks down, is that sometimes the level of communication between residents and Councillors and then on to the party concerned?
it's putting an extra step in the process so it can be, it can be quite skewed, I think, sometimes frustrates frustrating, I certainly think of the issue of the number of complaints, I think we we kind of dealt with and this came back some time with the we we've with issues at the Regent on the river.
development and certainly I, I know, Thomas representative, or at the very large Residents' Association, and I think we've cleared that up and that that that kind of a problem has been, it has been understood and regularise, so so so we don't have people just sending lots and lots of complaints to the to the Heylipol which I can understand is quite an disconcerting for the Heylipol but similarly be they want to help residents to get,
to to to be able to get their complaints had, and I did think we were going to be a bit more proactive in getting complaints to run through the Council's and then to go to the right body, because sometimes I think it's not down to the heliport it's down to the at.
two other aviation authorities, so I do feel a little I, I do feel sympathy towards a heady Pope if it's aviation, and is it.
it's how they could that they control.
I know if, if I'll come back to win, especially sat, there will spend up.
he just tried it on me myself, yes, I think, trying to journey for your comments, I think that was that would be the best way to go, because, and to answer James's is question and notwithstanding the frustration that he feels about people Cassini corner which I'm sure will cover when we get to the noise complaints because that's perfectly valid.
I think it would be better to have
councillors at the Consultative Committee, but that does not preclude James from or any resident from e-mailing us to point out something that you know go wrong. All have a phone call with Matt if it's a problem, that's persistent, it doesn't mean, we're not gonna talk to residents. It's just that. To keep these meetings neat, if the elected representatives are who are quite used to attending meetings, and you know we can get through the order of business reasonably quickly and cover the major points that are causing issues because, as we all know, in communities, a few people could make a lot of noise. The they elected representatives are usually best placed to know if that's a majority of people who are you know if they've got a large number of people who are complaining because they are the focal point generally, people will go to their elected representative, so if it's one or two, you might take the view, yeah, there's always been one or two people who complain if you've got 400 it might be a different story, and that's why I think the elected representatives of the people to come and
how to come in and add to the consultative committee meeting and and talk to the airport that's that's, that's what certainly what's happened.
other airports that I've run with consultative committees is mainly being council officers and councillors are, and there have been a few people from helicopter operators, aeroplane operators, flight schools, etc have come along as well to answer questions about their own activities when it's when it's necessary.
thank you, John to I will come to you in a second, well, is the
does this issue really arise around noise complaints?
as opposed to on all other matters that the the Committee looked at.
well, I think the noise complaints is an issue that you know you're always going to have noise complaints is an airport and I've said to these meetings before it always astonishes me that somebody will you know if somebody buys a house next to them 25 they don't write to the D F T to try to get the them 25 close because they don't like the noise of traffic but somehow if you buy a house next to an airport approach even though the airport's been there in continuously since 1959 the airport's suddenly legitimate target for complaints.
although you know your reasonably to have known, you were going to listen to aircraft noise if you buy a house next to the approach to an airport, I mean I bought a house in big one hell when I lived there and it was under the approach the airport I had to decide whether or not I wanted to live with that noise and I concluded it wasn't gonna bother me so I bought the house.
yeah, it's it's that simple to me, I just don't understand, I don't understand why people complain if they live that close, I understand, by the way, Mr eden's complaint, because it's a fair complain, he's making where they cut the corner and they shouldn't be cutting the corner and will have to work out with him as strategy and perhaps with his local councillor, and it might be a case of writing to he through Heathrow special for instance, who actually control that piece of airspace to ask them to prevent it from happening.
but that that's a valid complaint, just saying I don't like the noise, I'm not sure there is I really I'm not sure it is a valid complaint, OK so so so so so I concede that I I didn't want to add to that one and particularly as who'd been raised but yeah I I personally witnessed that phenomenon in near Parsons Green area on one on him on Saturday afternoon all of sitting in a golden
I know anyway, let me come John local, thank you for being patient,
thank you, thank you, Chair, I actually not currently a member of the great, but I am the Councillor Sandsfield and in my ward I have residents like Mr Ian and others who have been in touch with me about Hannibal tissues, and it's one of the reasons why are suggested I think Mr Eaten some time ago that he join the group so I've attended several of these just as an observer.
if I could just make a few points, it would be good if there is a proposal, then to change the management of fee consultative break, it would be good for everyone to be able to just see what the terms of reference going to be that are being proposed so, for instance, one of the things that if we are adopting this new model that Councillors speak on behalf of their residents, we might need to have a slightly wider invitation because certainly the way that it works from Wandsworth at the moment is there is one, I think from the majority party and one from the minority party.
so that's why I'm not a member, even though have a word that, both as the river and have residents who have comments, the other thing I think actually benefits the group is having.
a chair that rotates between the boroughs and I would strongly recommend that that's retained sorry that Councillors Charlotte, but they they rotate, I think, for instance, to make sure you're doing a perfect job and demonstrating hand to to run the meeting and make sure it forgets that say so I I think it would actually help Amy to keep the Chan neutral rather than trying to chart themselves and to olofi.
the engagement work. I'd also just note that the heliport, I think he's probably in a unique position in the UK, just in terms of it is sited in an area that has a high population density which is growing and whether or not that is right or wrong, for all those people to be buying their flats or to be renting their flats or to be put in those flats by housing associations and councils. That is this wider strategic decision that has been made by London. We have turned an industrial area into a residential one and we are still approving as councils and as far as the GLA we are still a proofing lots of building along the river, which is exacerbating the issue. Thank you
thank you, thank you, John Tom again, I thank you for waiting patiently.
please let me know that that Syriza, when Ike akala aka somewhat Jenny, said earlier on that it does make sense for.
complaints to go to go via Councillors rather than having resident representatives who, if they follow complaints, get told that vexatious, I think part of the problem was often says that the the mechanism for for making complaints to the webpage on her report website is is suboptimal.
I put through quite a few and
have branded been branded vexatious. I don't take it too, personally, it's fine, but you can see the problem that there are a lot of people do complain a lot about the noise generally and you know I take the point that the Holocaust, it's been a long time, but as the the last week has said, and the whole complexion of this area has changed since 1959, as has the world where I'm sitting now was a coal-fired power station in 1959, the Thames outside was basically a
a dead sewer where industry and multi companies could pump anything into liked
people were smoking cigarettes because they were told they were good for them, there are a lot of things that have changed since 1959 and I think we have to we have to accept that, and probably the Hollicombe needs to accept that a little bit maybe work with the people around them rather than being.
less than collaborative, and I think they're going round in circles, is an interesting idea.
he certainly seemed to be going round in circles and I wonder areas for buses.
I'll be happy to work with, will eat should make sure the complaints go three, a sensible channel, and the UK were collected in a sensible and efficient way because I think it's fair to say that the whites working at the moment isn't really working for anybody, including the heliport and I recognise that.
I think so.
just tell me.
you kindly indicate the the each each, but with Jenny.
trinity Thompson's son, I'd be very interested if we could get particularly my.
is I'm cheering from Hammersmith and Fulham so?
I can get Hammersmith and Fulham nutrition if we could perhaps.
a range of residents meetings specifically on this subject, I'd want to keep it fairly controlled the people who put a genuine interest in in in in what's going on with helicopter aviation, rather than people who just want to go to a meeting because it is decimating.
but how would you feel if, if, if, if we could organise something through the Council and?
for residents, but not just Hammersmith and Fulham, but o all the residents.
who had legitimate concerns from Kensington and Chelsea, as well as from Wandsworth.
apart from a personal perspective, I think there's there's nothing wrong with our ideology, I think think there was a place or so people, people like me, who've got a community roundtable moves, I can funnel their views to you as well, it happens,
a bit sporadically and.
what last week we had an outdoor appearance, people were badgering me about.
about helicopter noise as usual and brought me some e-mails ahead of this meeting.
you know, I say I think bringing them were meeting might work or it might not, but I think having representatives collecting views and feeding the back in a in a coordinated way also has a place.
you know, as does not hold inadequate to Councillor.
movements in and
applying the rules of the operators who come in and out.
and I think I think the only thing, the only thing I would just say.
I think it was John Mackay, who he was talking about the helipad being unique and I'm not sure that's completely correct, there is another London had reportedly snicker Cannery Row, which also has not some restrictions, because that's become a residential area out of a tree previously industrial area and,
as I understand it, the restrictions that are quite quite a lot tighter than they are in the Battersea heliport,
maybe there should be some consistency there,
to thank you will want just excuse me while I am I'd just go to Jamie Jamie.
thank you Councillor, so I just wanted to note that.
from the officer perspective we do consider these meetings are set up in line with the Department for Transport guidance on airports, Consultative Committees, which does encourage meetings to be held in public wherever possible and sets out three groups of attendees, sorry, one of which being used as an operator's one of which being local authorities and the third being other local organisations including residents association, so that's why these meetings have been set up the way they are at present and I think that was useful context to Shabir.
thinking Jamie and and and and join me much hope to have this is something that will to just.
because so many people seem to BP be showing an agreement on this, but I would like to just double check what.
what would I Group terms of reference are, and also any views that?
teeth out might have because there that adequate integral to this.
and that the the the the the they are involved in the
Heathrow control, and I think some of the issues, if I remember correctly, and will hopefully correct me that some of the issues arise from the why.
Heathrow, air traffic control queue up helicopters over, I've ever residential areas, so it might be worth a wall if we could also speak to tear, fell as well and getting and get some.
since as some something from then, John can you help us in this place.
yeah, thanks, or on Jonathan's our secondary sector, one of the councils involved in a head at all sorts of grateful for many years.
I wasn't around repaying set-up haven't been Iran add-on, and you know it has formed and has taken on and impose a role over the years and be very grateful for the ongoing participation and inputs of the Harry poor health, poor management and I think we are very grateful for that and without that it would be very difficult for the Heylipol associate committee to run so just make other points just recurring what Jamie said that we do run it in line with the D F T guidance though we agree it doesn't meet a full threshold.
for Consultative Committee, which is part of the reason why the Council runs it as a way of allowing residents and elected representatives to have access to the the the health report and hat on tall oak and and and feedback, so it has proved very helpful over the over the years, I think ultimately how the Heylipol cow slaughter committee meeting here how it goes forward is a is a matter for them to the meeting the Committee itself that we've heard tonight than they had report are
intend to no longer attendance meeting and set up their own setting, that is, if effectively as a sort of an existential question for this meeting, I would be keen, I think, probably picking up your point Councillor about, if will can set out the terms of reference of of their proposed consultative mechanisms. It would be helpful if officers, myself and officers are for a neighbouring authorities can can feed into that, because I think that would be a constructive way to
to move for so.
I don't really have anything else to suggest other than that's, I'm afraid.
the thank you for that very helpful will only going to say something, but since so so please continue, I would like to ask you a couple of questions just on on other issues that have arisen in this in in this discussion and please go ahead who I was just going to say that well, firstly, I disagree that the meeting is run in accordance with government guidelines because I don't make it is for the scale of APO we are,
but net by leaving that aside, that will be corrected, we will, of course, produce in terms of reference, which broadly will be based on the government guidelines, although because we're not way below the
threshold for running a full ACCC, we may abbreviate them, as you would expect, because some of the protocols are really designed for very large airports, with huge communities around them,
I do accept is a built-up area, but you know is implicit in planning law that you can't develop an area and then complain about pre-existing noise, so I think that applies at the Halle Board just as much as it applies anywhere else, where industry and and residential come together.
so.
yeah, that's that's the points, but please, if you have some questions for me, go ahead
yeah, yeah yeah, it will.
it would be good, so I'm confident that could feel if you meetings ago and when we were discussing about noise and also reflected noise and how.
the buildings along the riverside may actually be contributing to the problem because of the way they.
that the that they reflect noise or odour, noise, reverberates from them and the other tick, and and just as a follow on to that I was at, I went to one of our borough Hammersmith and Fulham planning meeting.
and I asked them about consultation with the
with the Heylipol, and that seems to have been a bit dry and
they are, or I wasn't sure whether you over the head with a Battersea helipad gets consulted about planning in Hammersmith and Fulham, we do for tall buildings that are close to the airport Barney and so much as they might interfere with the
protected safeguards slips for the airports on all other matters, they don't consult us at all, they just get planning permission and and then noise complaints follow from new residents in new buildings.
yeah, I went into a house subject complaints from people on in in existing buildings, the predict the Heylipol, but because of the other buildings they say they can, they're being affected more by noise and the that the the planning officers will have talked in that there was a bit of confusion over the naming because they will still pulling the some good ones with airport, I think it was referred to and then as something else So,
I, I just wanted to make sure what the extensive consultation is.
this is the word I think so, but I suspect this is a Hammersmith and Fulham and Kensington and Chelsea issue because you help who actually sits in in Battersea John Woodward, would that be the case?
sorry, I may add as a case sorry, sorry, Convener, a different point of all it is concluded for you or come in if that's OK, yeah, so it seems the
well.
residents or getting caught.
you can get quite worked up about noise from the Hallé pool and it might be that the Heylipol, it's not getting a chance to.
to say to say something, and there's all sorts of planning, I'm not a Planning expert, but they can say to people if you bought this place when it's built, then you're going to have to accept that the noise is there and you can't complain about it which I know has certainly been done on some buildings with some other industrial sources anyway.
please continue, Joan yeah, I was just going to.
add a few things really, I think the success of the So picket Wales points about the building and.
white-boy somewhere near the heliport, I think it's probably important cider, you know, actually to help poor with a tall oak over the years with the heliport operators as well as I think has helped have some successes around so mitigation measures and operating measures of help to reduce noise and a sort of neighbourly type way and I think that has been quite constructive dialogue. I think we'd benefited from over the years and there's probably some Members new on this corridor will remember some of those discussions and and I think also it's probably helpful demand that are, I think Councillor Lock is or alluded to this. There are communities
closer in a crisis, a headache for the Courser sort of housing and housing tenants and housing association tenants.
my necessarily have had the choice where they are, where I live, similar today's that probably binds from the other properties near the near their reports, and I suppose just finally thinking about how we might be able to move, move this to a sort of Ken towards a conclusion if,
if will can set out, which I think has agreed to a sort of terms of reference, perhaps see next meeting recognised that will probably won't attend that meeting, but recognising that perhaps, as a group we could have a discussion, that I was tender reference amongst effect effectively amongst ourselves and make any recommendations collectively to the had reports and how it can move forward with our our report, so that's just the suggestion Chair.
thank you, John, at change it, and thank you for waiting so patiently James.
sorry, I was just going to add some detail, I've when everyone's a committee reports for planning that it specifically says that consulting the helicopter is mandatory for buildings over 90 metres to not say anything I was going to say to that's the only time they consulted and that's the higher the heightened risk, the relevant height criteria for consultation.
or thank you change.
Mattie Ross.
Apple, I just wanted to add at that point we don't get the.
planning permissions comfrey so we to look for them, but for us we look cat it from a safety perspective, so it's the height of the building and any crimes Edwin for us, it's the society of the the heliport users and those around I mean surely the the any assessment on the increase of noise would not fall on the heliport to do a survey on that'd be down to the developers.
we also have a lot of issues with have seen a
a mock-up of a development that was near the Hallé poor and they completely cut the her report of the the picture from the the view of it there was no hurry poor, we also have a state agents ring us on a regular basis asking when are quiet periods are to get paper Lane so they know they don't hear the noise to try and sell properties which which isn't.
you know him, my staff will not tell anyone when our movements are high because the GDPR and pay, because we know what they're doing,
so so we fight in a bit of a losing battle here, we're trying to do our best, but we've got people for us in against this on this year it could producing you're only consulted him unknown to me, to buildings for safety we will be which which could lead quite rightly should be put the
the issue of noise and to put in search, so, to give you a or an example from my at a planning meeting on Saturday, normal no sit on, there were representations from the Western rival River Authority who operate a big rubbish recycling plant worst off Wandsworth Bridge.
and the the the, the, the, the, they said representations to the meeting and those Mill decay just to limit their liability for noise so that if people boy the new-build properties, they're aware that that facility exists and that noise would cause a problem so it then throws back on the developers to actually try and do something about that and the and to make sure that the properties are not in the public eye a little bit fall into planning.
and shouldn't plunder that on other planning experts are also stop at that point.
is there anybody else would like to say something?
OK, so sort of a switch on police, no, sorry I was just it was just to so pick a via, the suggestion that, at terms of reference of some description comes back to this disgrace, group, albeit probably without heliport its engagement but help this group feed into the detail of that De fills, OK that feels like a good, a good way forward, but it's obviously up to the Committee yourself to decide.
Ian social, on this particular point I will take it that it's the hilly poops intention, not not to support the next meeting in this format to organise a.
an alternative meeting where Councillors can bring issues and and and that, particularly arising to noise, to to to to that meeting for direct discussion with helical.
the that this does that somewhere up will yeah, I think so.
yeah will be in a way which we which Branagh meeting that.
I was there to discuss specific points, we can go through a broad swathe of noise complaints to see you know which categories they fall into, we can talk about any other issues that arise, and I know my we've got ongoing item of air quality, we can we can talk about that sort of thing.
yeah, but I'm not sure whether we'd be hobbling the meetings at 7.00 at night, I think we might do them during business hours or will depart to London day to no.
another issue would would be interested in is when you be ready to put some in Council papers and our next meeting, because our next meeting of the this Consultative Group in this format has to take place.
and it would be that the at that meeting that we would.
we'd read through that and would take on board any terms of reference that the that already exist for us and also anything from Teofilo 0 or anybody else, you'll be welcome, to sit into that meeting, goes so yeah, you know.
we will, we will, we please do not fully being kicked out, but we will carry on with that meeting and it would actually be probably useful if it if you would come along, because if we've got queries over terms of reference and what we would continue talking to with residents and and how we would bring that to you, that would that the the, the you your input there would be. We would be very helpful. I agree it would help to foreshore in the process of making a change, so I think it's it would be constructive to attend that if I need to discuss the terms of reference and our future meeting would be constituted take on board anything that TfN will have to add in our nature, but they may want send somebody in our themselves to their ratings.
that's the level at which I think we will get the most constructive debate going in, I, because it is a sad fact that most of the time residents, anyone's Teddy down fly near my house, they don't have anything else to say that's no disrespect to them, but that's their parochial interest isn't it? Whereas we would hope that DFL and people would take a wider a wider view of it.
OK and entombed this is going to fall, it can fall to officers really to particulate all this information and to end and to organise another meeting.
and before it to answer that.
S I know Caroline's Councillor Jones, Councillor Jenny, EU Councillor.
now.
on the resident representative, OK, so what it wanted to find out was if residents, irrespective Borough, would like to
we were, we would like to have a meeting and
and and and just see what they want to put together with the
their thoughts and annoys stop, we've been really something that we can feed into the next meeting with
which, of course, residents would still be invited to.
when we didn't sorry Councillor beyond the entire area, so sorry, CFL, post-April, obviously well and his team as well, and we've got a untidy, shows a programme meeting of this Committee into the autumn, I will choose, I amazing 30% and and and and and I became for Hammersmith and Fulham to provide a or at a venue and the we will get something sorted out in that by if he does not mind coming across the river.
well, I think we'd no later virtually the same siren, we will probably have that discussion, let's let's leave it at that and will will pick it up with your your team as well, Councillor okay, James, did you want to say something?
I was just going to ask about going forward and I would like to find out what the best way to work through this issue about the cutting the corner is and.
but that's just something are unlikely to add to that that list.
if there's going to be a forum for councillors and residents when it might be that the best way to liaise directly with Matthew, but I think this is quite a complex problem and if the issue is about getting the heavy put to say, use Council resources or cameras or something to get sight of the area or its in liaison with Hastings special no, I don't know it.
I'd like to know how we work through that, I don't think it's just me talking to Matthew, for example, I don't think it's just me talking to John McDonnell John McCain, talking to Matthew, there's a there's a more difficult problem to solve that and I don't know what the forum for that is and maybe that's something we can this.
this can that could be worked through somehow.
but Mackley is still way.
yeah, I'm just on the financial well wellspring, Califer 2 seconds, OK, so shall we give them a say.
there are many just to recover their connection
J. James III, please carry out if you like to.
he added.
not sure there's much more to say, but it would be, I mean, now, it's recognised as a problem, not the question is, how do we go about finding a permanent solution, because I don't want to be monitoring the aircraft flying over my house and I don't want to be complaining, I don't have to be consulting my neighbours in the neighborhood watch and you know it's just and I'm sure the heliport doesn't want.
that her process going on. It'd be much better if we just find a solution, so it doesn't happen and, as I say, it's actually illegal. If I can now, 44 now, 22 0 66 goes over, you know that's actually illegal if they ever fly built-up area, if it's a twin-engine aircraft, then it's just against the fly enabling policy, but the thing is it's at this end of Thames field. It's just right on the edge of the the orbits of the helicopter air traffic control, and that's why we'll was talking about Heathrow special because it seems it's where there directing helicopters and if they're directing helicopters to fly over this end of terms, fail, then maybe they can stop doing that and and they can work in line with the fly, namely policy. But that's the thing is quite a complex problem. There are, there are different actors involved, and how do we engage to make sure there's a permanent solution is, as my question, I don't know who to you know, it's taken this long to really get to be able to articulate the problem succinctly,
Theresa to change, I think, are so I don't know whether it was the same incident but.
that the the same helicopter came back with the full cooperation in the small Robinson helicopter, I didn't get the the election and grow that and it completely cut through the South part of Fulham.
in order to cut out there following at River yeah, that's I'm French evaluation more so it can be ensured possibly to the CIA they're not allowed to do that because I had obviously danger now falsify Robinson how it comes to have a terrible safety record as well and repair that twice as as an Exec breakfast as over helicopter scrutiny maps there was a there's been some terrible accidents with.
with whether the blades actually strike the the tower and a helicopter that as the the correct controls in it,
we are all OK, will be dairy, we we we we.
sorry, let me just let.
hello, we lie back with us.
yeah, sorry, yeah.
sorry St James' on on that point. With the there are 44 and the Robinson aircraft, they're not necessarily coming into the heliport. That's that's the issue. We have these Robinson, our 44,020 toes very rarely come into the Hallé poor, it's few and far between. I can give you the exact numbers, but I think the last time I let's it was very low numbers, so the majority of those that are a cut in the corner of their their Robinson aircraft tend to be training once out on a jolly up and down the Thames. Now they're going into our S by yes, but they are under no obligation to follow our our roles because they're not coming in and out of us they don't have they don't have, they might never have had a briefing at the Heylipol bore or never intended to, so they wouldn't know the Health reports fly neighbour nobbly policy unless they've done a briefing us just because they transit rs, but this doesn't mean they know our policies. Yeah yeah, that's the one that's the issue we have with that and you know where we've had it in the past where we've had
we've had twin Stuart, I've I've put word out to the operators to just remind them, and I've spoken to them directly.
thanks Stuart Matthew what I found naturally recently, I've not noticed, as many will have noticed very few Robinson aircraft actually cutting the corner and we know it's been mainly bigger aircraft so twin and presumably twin-engine aircraft that have been doing and it's there seems to be one in particular and we had an e-mail exchange about this or it's a dark blue one with a silver.
underneath oregano is a pair on flight tracker, so it's hard to get the care from them, and I know and thanks for sending that message out.
I appreciate that so that there has been some improvement, what tends to happen is it improves, and then it gets bad again
and then it improves when you know when a complaint and it gets bad again, and that's why I'd really like to find a permanent solution, because I don't want to bother you with complaints. I don't want to be here, frankly, if if, if it cannot just go away and the helicopters can fly on the on the prescribed flight path and folio your policy, then then I've got no need to be here. Awareness as well said maybe that's a conversation that needs with had with Haifa special because they are the ones that had any Ivor to us, and maybe I can give them a little Najaf, dank corner yeah, so how do we facilitate that? I mean, is it? Would it be useful for meeting with the her report with Heathrow special to say this is your for enabling policy and and
you encourage a Heathrow special to follow your policy because it is enabling, and it's not encouraging Heathrow special space be enabling in the way that you unneighbourly in that. In that sense, is that something I mean I didn't know it be good to find a way that this can be resolved
that's the Rye also mean something rotten in the night, but then I believe policies purely for for aircraft coming into the heliport.
he very special will deal with hundreds of aircraft delay and in Honley a small percentage of those
it coming into the heliport, so it's a bit of a difficult one,
but then I first got anything else to add to the.
sorry, will you hand the superb teaching pollution? You're you're on mute, well, sorry, acknowledges coming, and I think we've drifted off the on the agenda a little bit in terms of the, I think we're all the complaints, such wonder if we could just are we clear on the the first sites in terms of next steps and I'm just checking on that before we move on nothing, we, I think we all clear, but I just check and we've moved on the agenda, Councillor, thank you for the yeah. I thank you for the reminder, so
is there anything more that anybody else would like to say on this item regarding the future of the London heliport Consultative Group,
OK, then, we will move on to Item 6.
information on helicopter movements,
he's everybody had a copy of the helicopter movements report May 2020 to 2 May 2024.
yes, thank you.
and would anybody like to say something?
yes, I was talking you're muted, I'm not sure if anybody was.
no comments from my site here was satisfactory, thank you.
Tom
I was just answering the question, who has everybody at a copy, I don't think I've had a copy, I'll just quickly looking my mailbox and I can say that.
if somebody could.
facilitating the e-mailing me a copy of that'd be great, it's if you've got, if you've got the agenda, some it's is in the powers at Rye, yes, yes, I think it's on page.
it's just off the page 7 page, I thought of the movements for thank you.
but then, if we, if there's nothing for the women to add to that, then can we note that police?
thank you 7 helicopter noise complaints and I think is.
I am grateful to John Evans just steering away from diving into that, while we are talking about a o item forward.
changing, would you like to add anything on on on the helicopter noise?
particularly in in in in reference to what he was saying earlier
paragraph
I was, I think, I've said everything, I need say, I think we we just we need to continue about discussion with Matthew and to figure out the ether special connection and how we get, however we get that reaching them better and more consistently, so that's all I can say.
thank you and I'll come over to will, but before it to it is useful to to discuss these things here, because I can see the frustration the helipad must have when you've got aircraft movements that have no relationship to you to your operations.
until Heylipol and residents.
will just automatically assume that the hilly pools to blame for this and stock, and I'll start cranking out compliance.
sorry, will you got your hand up
Andrew mute.
Douch satisfied on Charter on me myself, because it computers, I can't say, because the sun's shining eyes.
on James's point, obviously, the Heathrow special controllers actually sit in Swannick in the control centre, but the good news is that I have quite a lot to do with him because I'm on the steering board for the national steering board for the
modernisation of all the London airspace, which is basically the space that sits over overland, which is being completely redesigned at the moment in a sort of 7 8 year process, and I'm pretty sure we could get to talk to somebody James Heathrow, special and see if we can ask them if they can.
have controllers just remind people who stray from the Hallé routes if they've been cleared on the hourly rate. That is because I do not Heathrow clear people direct quite a lot of the time, and I know that because I've flown at that airspace a fair bit myself, and if you're in a multi ancient helicopter, you will get cleared in a straight line if it's expedient for air traffic control to get you in a straight line, but single-engine helicopters should be sticking and you quite rightly should be sticking to that route because that reaches acknowledged as having adequate space to land a single engine helicopter if as an engine failure, so there shouldn't be cutting corners at all
and and we need to you know we need to and on a Matthews right, the people who will be doing that will invariably be people who rarely fly the heady rates, but when I know, for instance, there are a number of firms that offer Robinson of 44 charter flights to go and see the sights of London, so they'll fly up the length of the terms that's a red letter day or something like that they'd call it, donate whatever they sell those rides so yeah, so will I'll try and see what I can set-up Joseph, that's OK, yeah, thanks for that role, appreciated and
will rue will imagine get jittery on your expertise from on how the residents, who have you, got any advice you can offer to residents where they have a helicopter come flying over one, and there may be a question of them deviating from the river and and and and and cutting corners?
about how and
how are they registered their concern, how how they might begin to understand the difference between the aviation rules for for twin-engined wrote Grafton single engine?
sir cipher may with we've got there, the noise complaint form on the website, and it gives people the ability to put as much information as possible if I can give it a sort of direct time location and as much data you know, I'm not expecting people to know the exact aircraft if they can gave so a colour I can work out from the system and registrations and then we can we can identify that way in our eyes, as James well knows the you know we can't say and,
we, we just go on papers descriptions, we get a lot of compliance, the artist,
helicopters, noise, and that's
how am I supposed to investigate that I investigated the MO and look into to every sort of so one, another aspect to the air traffic controllers to see if they concern if they know anything outside of the the norm.
I'm enough of actually from the last meeting the suggestion to add a sort of frequently asked questions to the noise complaint form, that's now been added, so it sort of gives an explanation of opening times special event dies and in added description where a lot of our our complaints were worth.
helicopters circling for prolonged periods, while that's that's air ambulances or or the place so it's it's narrowed down, there are still some that slip further neck, the downgrade that staff, but is there has been a significant decrease in that?
so that's been quite helpful, but I'd otherwise advise people to use that form and just be as descriptive as possible because they're not going to investigate, whereas the upstart don't have the time to to go through this we papal it's easier and quicker and it gives me time to look at it.
and it some, I've had a lot of issues, with people being genuinely Road to my staff and Weaver, whether it's the helicopter noise or know that the staff member doesn't deserve road nurse or being sworn at, and I will I will not accept that I've totally we do if we do if anyone if anyone's squares and my staff they also hang up because that that's not acceptable it's not their fault.
yeah
and then the
it you risk to the phenomenal rhythm.
20 or 30 people watching a tennis match one of the
one of the tennis Venus along the
fulham stretch and everybody reaching for their mobile phone and bringing you 20 or 30 miles on the same subject, and you're getting overwhelmed with it, we have staff getting overwhelmed with that.
that's always a restless now on this, as well as well so far yeah, as well as the way it works well with the the complaint form.
now I can, if I'm reply to one person, that's got the same complaint as someone else, it's just copy and paste for me to move, thank you very much to look thank you for Boof patiently waiting.
I thank you, can I have had some residents' complaints recently?
I, I assume it was because of the Wimbledon traffic, but I'm just trying to match up because I advised residents to complain via the website
and one of the cases was a Helic helicopter hovering for a long time before it landed
the the resident told me about one landed Heylipol, and I'm just wondering if that's 15 24, so my question is, what checks does the heliport do when you get a complaint because he you sort of reference that it was potentially the air ambulance?
or police, and certainly the the resident I spoke to said, it wasn't wasn't the air ambulance because that's very distinctive and read and read helicopter, and it wasn't plus it landed at the Heylipol agenting the police often do that, so I just wondered what what checks did you undertake about what the Hallé port traffic was around?
10 minutes past eight from that date, which date was sorry, sorry, I'm sorry, I was looking at the papers, it's it's down as being the 8th July so earlier this month, so it would have been Wimbledon period, I think.
helicopter circling late.
so I said that one, so the check was we were closed.
so it was nothing today with us.
and have you had any more in July them, yes, yes, but I can only send this when, when it's requested Bedfont, it might, I'll just go back to the restaurant and say
it's not shown up yet in a different pool, thank you.
manage it just as doubling trick, whoo whoo, when new closed, accepting an emergency Wu, pull in aircraft mob mistakenly or?
UIL just.
they didn't get the timing right Land at the Heylipol without your consent.
neither were they weren't without our consent unless it's an emergency
and I'll tell you that doesn't that hasn't happened.
we've had an emergency, but not in my time here is that okay.
that belief that this never been one that's landed without without consent from traffic control.
OK to correct.
so it is there any more in in in any more to be discussed on an unknown complaints.
OK, then, we now bringing that.
but the the the the the the injury agenda, I will allow people if they have any other business, to add to this.
to add to this, because we would be going to aid so they can be discussed at next meeting at Caroline.
yes, sorry and.
is it possible to get an update on ease and air quality discussion that we had at previous meetings place?
as I meant to guide dancer as well, are you happy to pay interest trials on Alan Stewart, Matthew OK yeah, we've we've established, I've found a contractor to do at the issue is.
we're not going to pay for all of it, because if we pay for all of, it will simply be told we've influenced the report so we've been clear that it's got to have some funding from the cat, so they are joint client speakers otherwise, as I say that they've report will be pointless, you went believe any of it, you'll just say we've you know, we find somebody to say whatever we want, I honestly think they're going to waste their money because I can't see how they can differentiate heliport emissions from all the other emissions in London.
so just to be care and have the respective cancers been informed of the cost and had any discussions yes, yes, so I guess it for me to follow up with our council officers and see what's later in the year, they know exactly what it's going to cost because we've had the quote.
I don't think I've off the top of my head, I think it was 16,000, but I might be wrong about that.
it is at split. Three ways is that for each cancer, though I think in total and I attach Edwards, we will potentially prepared to pay half of it. So start that we don't want to pay were prepared to do the work but, as I say, what I don't want is for us to commission the work and then everybody to say well, you know, the report is biased because at least if the Council's apart clients, they've got reasonable assurance that what they're receiving. You know that somebody has to treat them because they are partly the client as treat them in partially
no, I can understand that I don't know if Mr Evans wants to comment on his perspective from once this Council, I'm not sure he's upon or not.
so some, Mr reference has dropped off the call I suppose, picks up.
so yeah, I think we've agreed informally at least from Wandsworth side, that were happy to fund our share of it, and now it needs to pick up with Kensington and Chelsea and Hammersmith and Fulham.
and work out their processes for approving their equivalent contributions.
could you keep us councillors up-to-date, you haven't provide us any information since the last meeting, and I would expect the Council, when once asked Councillor Sue, leading this group to actually keeper's.
in the loop please, yeah, moving thank you and the the the the Central Hammersmith and Fulham, so I I guess you're gonna be,
we're looking to pick up the bill and then I'll see other Councillors to contribute to share to spill.
I'd if that's easier, we can do that for you, yes, if that if that's easier, but we can rein voice parts of it, but again I just wanted to be absolutely bulletproof that the report, when it's done that the people who,
our commissioned are aware they are working for joint client so they are working for two Councils and therefore they must send the reports on easy to those councillors because otherwise there will be suggestions made, not perhaps by Councillors but you know they'll always be a suspicion perhaps in the community that the report wasn't completely objective and and I'm so convinced that we don't have an emissions programme created by Hayley's I really do on that report to be bulletproof.
and by the way, I base that on Biggin Hill airport because we're not as MD there, we did air quality monitoring at the airport over a protracted period of months, it turns out it had the best air quality in the Borough,
thank you very much if there's no further business, then opened the meeting to a close.
is there anything else Jamie, though Justin out that I think, where Stewart due to get dates in the diary for the next meeting we're looking for one in December, so the website lists the next meeting is paying in March next year, but what we are looking to get one in between when notwithstanding the
earlier discussion, obviously about the future of the Oulipo so secret and suicide to woo, yes, routine, could you facilitate the the the the the the the the the the resident representative, this groups and and in NCSC counselling into just communicating with each other so they can contact and we can the the the the the they can have a meeting as as as as as was discussed in here so that they can kill I lend and no noise problems together.
yeah, I'll pick that up.
I thank you very much.
the will can I thank everybody for for for attending this meeting, and
that at that thank you very much and I wish you all good could not thanks very much rightly for Chair in case thank you very much, thank you, thank you, thank you.
right.