London Heliport Consultative Group - Thursday 28 March 2024, 7:00pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

London Heliport Consultative Group
Thursday, 28th March 2024 at 7:00pm 

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so we will just get started by a way, so we can start with Item number 1 on the agenda, which is the minutes of the previous meeting, so does anyone have any comments on that, or should I take it as agreed?
nothing from the helipad, just just the comments that Mr Kerr is put across that I understand, have all been corrected.
yes, that's correct, we updated them before the agenda went out.
and either OK, so I would take that as agreed, and then I can move on next to number 2, which is declarations of interest, so if anyone has an even pecuniary or vegetable and mentioned that now
Michael I'm assuming you don't have an interest to declare in years and years for an irrational apologies cherry, it's just we've missed, I think the introductions and apologies for absence or calls a few to provide before and it might be beneficial just to provide them before the declarations as well.
yeah, you show what, Sir, did you just want to go and I matter I think yes them, because for the purposes of the webcast it might be best if each group member introduces themselves and the capacity they are attending at all just confirmed view now in advance that the apologies tonight from Councillor Alexander from Hammersmith and Fulham well Curtis the managing director of the heliport and Jenny Scott Thompson, who is the rest of representative for once with
and then chair, it might be best if you then take a roll-call when I can record that for the minutes show OK, so I'll start with myself, I'm Councillor Councillor cocaine and I'm one of the Councillors for St Mary's and I'm Jess meeting shall we then move on to Councillor Dennis Whittle.
a high and giddy Councillor, Caroline.
also have St Mary's ward or Re where the heliport is located.
Councillors venue.
I agree evening, Councillor Samuels fed me up, Emma Hanson.
Chelsea Riverside ward, and the advocacy representative here, council representative.
thank you.
current giving the Gunners gifts Colin Stanbury officer from Wandsworth.
I act as technical adviser to the group moral one, such as aviation project officer.
OK.
and then we have Mafi.
I for one am Matthew Rice and they are helipad manager.
thank you, Matthew, 10 years ago, next year, national mainstream.
tempo, Sean CEO of British helicopter Association, looking after the operators.
thank you then Ben.
if no.
chorus, Gary Bennett, Manager, ESPYs Regulation and see a
OK, Tom.
on top of Ireland, on a resident of Hammersmith and Fulham in the region, on the river developments and on resident representative on the group for Hammersmith and Fulham.
you are Catherine and good evening and Catherine for vehicle, I'm resident representative for Kensington and Chelsea.
thank you, Catherine and James.
hello there, I'm I'm friendly, it's not I'm expecting to I'm up for nomination for the Wandsworth resident representative in this meeting Andrew James and Fanny, the two Muslim Bolton people Jamie.
good evening, everyone, I'm dreaming, I managed the policy review it seemed to Wandsworth and I act as a secretary for this committee.
and Michael.
good evening, Michael Flowers, Democratic Services Officer and Clerk for the meeting.
OK, so I believe that everyone, so we have to do we have a question over the volcano.
that's all completed Chair, thank you, OK so, and we do regret the minute, so now we can get a declaration of any interests.
OK I take silences confines, so we can move on to Item number 5 on the agenda, which is the future of the London Aleppo Conservative Group, so I think Michael wants to lead on this, yes, thank you Chair, because we've had apologies for absence from Mr Curtis, who was going to be raising this item. He's requested that this item be deferred to the next meeting of the group, so obviously it's up to the group to decide that, but I don't know if Matthew wanted to say anything extra if I've missed anything or if everyone's happy just to go to a vote to for that now. That's thus that's exactly what I proposed as well to spin that yeah, I think it makes sense
okay, well.
if it was my hair and Matthew is happy to postpone that I'm also fine as anyone object to.
that motion to postpone it.
OK, I will make sure to discuss that at the next meeting then.
so then, then now we can go into item number 4, so that's the proposed amendments to the Constitution and the terms of reference, and so I think in the agenda.
that was circulated the changes that were made to the group, I don't know, Michael you also wanted to say some words on this 0 or just opened the floor for discussion, I think, Chair this will be Jamie Fisher, introducing the item.
yeah, thank you Chair, so, as the sites themselves were making a number of small changes to the Constitution and the way that the group operates generally, which just builds on our experience of running the first two meetings since the pandemic.
suffice to say, as Michael has mentioned previously, we've moved to a slightly different set-up with team, so there's a.
the Committee version, which is everyone present and all the representatives, have access to the meeting, and then there's a webcast version which members of the public campaign so there is a greater separation between 10 days, which reflects the fact that this is a meeting held in public rather than a public meeting.
the other minor change that's not in the constitution is that we are trialling, replacing the any other business item on the agenda with a pre-notified question and answer item wow Michael, will be inviting every other representatives to submit any questions that they have two to three weeks ahead of each meeting.
and that gives us an opportunity to raise them with the heliport, or whoever the appropriate responder is and get a substantive response rather than in the meeting trying to respond.
on the fly.
so, and then we are also proposing to introduce a work plan for the group from the next meeting so that there are substantive items to discuss, and it's clear, I think, is essentially a forward plan, like most other committees would have.
turning to the terms of reference themselves, we've tidied up the section on resident reps a little bit.
so we're clarifying that resident reps are nominated by the
relevant Council and that nomination should be submitted to the group secretary, so Michael at least 10 days ahead of the relevant meeting, so that we can make sure it's properly picked up in the agenda. We've also clarified that appointments are made for a one year term based on the municipal year previously, the terms of reference refer to resident reps, being able to be renovated once their term lapsed, but didn't actually specify what that term was, so we're just clarifying that one year and reps can still to come to serve more than one term.
the proposal is that the term continues until the first meeting of the next municipal year, so there is no lapse in membership.
we've also added a reference to the general code of conduct, which members of the group are expected to uphold, and that's based on the Wandsworth code of conduct for members just to provide a guide, and we've updated to reflect that the meetings will be held via teams so that the
amendments that were proposing, and I'll hand over the discussion.
thank you, Jay yeah, thank you for drafting their changes, I think they will.
they common sense and tidying up the finish reference, so I am happy to support and the if anyone's got any thoughts or comments, then yeah throws up in out, or if you just want to raise your hand and Wayne.
we have tongue.
but it's just a.
I think some typographical errors on the terms of reference paragraph 1 we've got one D E F.
for the three youth groups, and then there's a reference.
in paragraph 2, sub-paragraph 1, A which one A to C which don't exist at the moment and likewise.
paragraph 3 A refers to paragraph 1, see above, which doesn't exist, so I think maybe paragraph 1 of the terms of reference should have sub-paragraphs, A B C D E F, and then it probably all hangs together.
I'm making some kind of sense, yeah now yeah I've got them up now and I can see what you mean and yeah paragraph 1, it begins with D F so yeah, that's a very small semantic change and
so.
yeah, I'll take it that that's noted Jamie and that we can Nike, modify and circulate, but that's a very minor change they won't require the paper to combat dignity, my God did you want to come in?
thank you, Chair, and that's just to confirm that one of the recommendations in the report is to authorise Jamie's secretary to make minor editorial changes, so those changes that Tom spotted can be corrected.
if if the documents are approved and it can be completed and circulated to all members after.
right okay.
it sounds like an automaton if we don't have to identify the changes, then we can't then that it has to combat sexuality, that I guess it would have to anyway and yeah that's fine again yeah managed story changes welcomed so I'm happy to support that turnaround machine in your hand is just still up or did you have another point that you wanted to come in on?
well, it has got to stop.
that's OK, noise did anyone else have any comments?
grant, so how am I will take those modifications as approved then?
so, but actually I guess I should do it formally so.
is that a good order, so other changes then agreed?
great OK, agreed thanks.
OK, so next we are going on to agenda number 5, which is considering James's nomination for the once with representatives.
so it is that.
I guess I can lead on this unless Miko needs to do so.
James has put himself forward, he was suggested by a councillor Luca.
I personally don't see any reason not to accept that if anyone had any points to raise or any questions for James Brown, maybe James, but it'd be good if you could say a few words as well.
ECO had changed.
can we can you see me, OK, can you hear me that I can't see you right now they have you come on, it's it's on, but it's not, it's not coming out, I mean, it's I've pressed the button, but it's not actually reassuring.
okay, well, as soon as we can hear you and we show a quick glimpse of your face at the start of the meeting, no wonder can you say me, not I?
earlier on, so I'm James Yates, I'm a Neighbourhood Watch coordinator for Denman Street, which is just south of the Halle routes as they leave or enter the air traffic control zone for the helipad I've been an MBA hodgepodge coordinator since 2018 and I've actually lived in Teignmouth Street since 1996.
yeah, hopefully you'll accept my nomination.
thank you for that, and again, yeah, I have now had no problems.
does anyone else have any comments or, if not, then I can move to a vote?
I am loving this lack of argument is great, he was a licence fav in that in that case, outtake that James nomination as one for fat is a great.
agreed.
Banks 1 year working to the Committee.
all right, so we are hammering through this agenda so also are now on to agenda item number 6, which is the air quality study, I believe, Colin you're leading on this, so God yesterday I am happy to introduce this.
Last year I don't know whether you're going to be able to add anything to what I'm going to say, but please interrupt me if there's anything, I'm saying that this is wrong or you've had an updated deposition having discussed this with Will.
but.
the last members will recall perhaps the last meeting.
the prospect to the real time air quality study was discussed in outline.
position prior to this has been equipment to do this had not been readily available.
and so we'd never been able to look at the possible real-time impact of helicopters taking off and landing on local receptors.
Over the last couple of years, technology has moved on a really at pace and we are now, I will now I'm going to do this.
and
following representations at the last meeting.
I've had some discussions, both with will and the hell at Boots potential chosen consultant about how this might take place.
technically, I'm confident and satisfied that a worthwhile study can be undertaken.
him will indicate it to me in the conversation that he and I had that the heliport were, in principle, willing to do this, providing you could get some buy-in from local authorities, the electoral authorities concerned, with this.
so.
that's really, if you like, the status of this, they are the only thing I would say is if this study is going to be done to be really representative worst-case scenario.
we will should try and get it moving so that the big traffic events the heliport for the coming summer season, hospitality et cetera, can be captured, so I think that's really what I can say, Dennis Matthews, is able to add daters with anything unless thank you you, you've pretty much got it nailed on the head Colin so basically we're happy to do the study we would like.
we're happy to p so half we'd like a bit of a contribution from the Council, not just for a money perspective, but also to say If you've paid half and we've paid half, they won't pay, we won't get any construed as saying the we've paid for or they can fight for us because we're the way the paper paying for it, so in our obviously that that can be it can be construed that why the 0 you've you've paid the company, you've paid them that they've done the results just for you and also that they couldn't clearly indicate that from the samples themselves that they could differentiate the
pollution from the heliport itself compatible with the surrounding areas, so yes, you will get an indication of the pollution around it, but there's no way of indicating what that is from a heliport perspective.
yeah, I think that's accepted reassuring what we're looking at.
in terms of the scope of the studies with real-time monitoring, 235 peaks and troughs in overall pollution levels and the extent to which one might be able to identify any peaks with helicopter activity, and it will be nothing more than maintenan him, no, no more so more granular results than that.
but nevertheless probably worthwhile doing, naturally, to try and quantify the levels of pollution that there are around the report currently where we are happy to to facilitate it, thank you, and I am sure discussions about price and how it's going to be organised will come at a later date and that generally,
it sounds great as it was frustration when we first heard that.
there wasn't really anything that could do in terms of accuracy, so I am really happy that this is moving forward and will get an opportunity.
sir Caroline, would you like to come in as well?
OK here is sentiment, and it's nice to see how we progressed over the last three meetings in terms of the the the the hypos position on this issue, so thank you very much, Matthew, for that and just just can we give scenario of cost here is against then what numbers we're talking about and we can take a view as to how
likely that the Council is going to help on this or to what extent.
yeah trust, I don't I think, fun conversation with Colin, it's really not that bigger later, did you want to give anything to be more specific yeah?
the conversations I've had with the the Halai posts, chosen consultant or most likely chose a consultant, we're looking at a figure of 120,000, I think for this overall and probably substantially and to that, but I think if the budget of 20 Cary were to be,
looked at that would cover the cost of doing studied and writing reports.
et cetera, alongside that.
that is either come the conversations that are had, and I am more than an outline.
Alan Society that the consultant at Aleppo has gone to, we would have every confidence in because they are the air quality consultants that we as a local authority will do after choice in any event.
so I think, yeah, we can have confidence that the study will be done professionally and competently.
and it is escape of the steady, are you visiting that just being within the vicinity, or will it also extend to the other Saturday webcasts as of interest?
I think they talked about putting it on the bridges as well, deny yes indeed.
try?
I think that's the thing we will have to discuss if, if it can be progressed to the next stage, obviously the siting of receptors rather like we did.
several years ago now, with a noise study around the Halle Board that was done in conjunction with London South Bank University, we agreed the survey was gonna, go ahead and then the second part of that is in refining it, working out the sensitive receptors and essentially the scope of the project.
thank you.
are Councillors fattening up?
I thank you.
is it right that there has been no air quality assessment to date?
in relation to the impact of the report along RIPA.
is it as the this, would this be the fast, the fast one?
I chat to you yesterday that is a stylish kit, local air quality data are available through local authority web's websites, but what we're looking at now is rather than long-term averages for local air quality, we're now looking at a study that hopefully might identify peaks and troughs in real time.
Will echo sorry I have this might be too much of a technical question, how would you measure the sort of?
air pollution is attributed both to Copters and and how, in the presence of a heavy court.
and distinguish that from other sources of air pollution you can't.
PJ IT, I hear, say that success is being challenge yeah.
there have been at times, I mean, sorry I, I can say I can say what the the the sort of plan is, is is if we, if we can isolate it around the times of the busy periods and you can get a rough idea of the increase in pollution at those time so,
for us Silverstone we can for the British Grand Prix that's that's always our busiest weekend if I'm ensure that I have short term test samples out during that period, and then I have once for an assigned sort of period that's not as busy then they can get a rough idea, but obviously it's not gonna be true to facts because they can't separate the what is helicopter pollution and what's
other pollution
but you get annoyed, you get an idea.
and to look ahead during those times say we went, I mean how long is the
so the great others at the study or the assessment do not know that, yet they have did they have different types, I have ones that go, I've a prolonged periods, and then they have short burst ones where you know they'll put the Shawbost ones out for the busy period and then they'll put the longer ones out for for a longer study, to get an idea on the averages for the for the month that thus correct isn't it column from what we are.
you're a mute Colin.
Colin Romy.
apologies, yes, I would agree with that, and with Matthew, just what Matthews just said yeah.
Caroline is your hand another question?
it was okay.
James you from Scotland on that Saturday and in the next.
if you're talking, James you and me.
can you hear me now, yes, okay, Greg sorry, I was more finish up, I would just like to say a very quick question Cohen is.
given that aviation fuel is different.
type of hydrocarbon and is used for for vehicular traffic.
is the is the city not measuring hydrocarbons in Melbourne because the any unburnt hydrocarbons in the air, and that's going to be very small, but the trace of that would indicate whether it's aviation fuel or whether you know Afghans or whatever, or whether it's unleaded or diesel fuel that's been burned, I would have thought,
you have anchor.
yes, sorry, that's an NBA interesting question.
one might think so, but I was involved in a study that Kew Gardens several many years ago now, actually, where we tried to do exactly that.
to look at the hydrocarbon profile footprint, if you like.
and believe it or not, most of that profile was dominated by.
diesel Dove.
we were not able to pick up anything in terms of.
of gas or aviation spirit.
yeah, whether in this case being so close to potentially the source, one might be able to do that.
I couldn't in all honesty say it's something I think that would be worth raising with the consultant at that in terms of the project brief as to whether this we could do some hydrocarbon typing to see whether that would die.
pinpoint this or not, but on size and done how she hopes at the moment, where we are possibly distributing food at just say whether I mean. If technology is changing, it's more sense. Technology can detect those hydrocarbons more trace elements or not. The study would confirm that if it could include it, but maybe that their equipment countermeasure hydrocarbons, I don't know, but it's it's worth asking the questions. Yeah yeah wouldn't disagree with that. I say I think we could take that on board.
yeah, OK thanks.
thanks do we have any other comments, so any management joining in the discussion?
okay, well that's that's not to a photo and even necessitate an update on the project, or again it sounds like everyone, like me, is fully supportive of it, so Jamie yeah, so just in terms of practicalities for taking that forward could
so would Councillor representatives be consent for me and Michael to now pick that up with our counterparts in your representative authorities to save?
we could get the relevant budget.
approved in principle.
yeah and and anyone have any reason not to support or anything.
things have nothing since I everyone's supported so yeah.
you have permission to go and advocate the six sites in the comments I hear more about it because, as Collins mentioned, with the aim to try and get to in place by the Silkstone weekend, start July would be, but the relegated side became very quickly if we can have any idea.
yeah alright, thank you, Colin, for your work on this.
OK, so that's the agenda item, 6, done so next, we're on agenda item 7, which is the information on helicopter movements.
yeah Jamie
so just on this item, just before he gets, a discussion would like to draw attention to a small typo.
on category D movements, on the second page of this item, the grand total should read 3,069, not 23,069, as just as superfluous to the OK.
that isn't quite add up.
and I will say Well, I, for our movements if we had 23,000.
yeah
now, considering the granddaughter itself is only 18 flowers per issue.
yeah, I am.
if so, does anyone have any particular questions about it, I have I have one, but I am happy for other people to go fast.
a them.
yeah, thank you Chair, I was just an interested and maybe it's in the numbers, and I don't understand them properly, so forgive me if that's the case, but we.
we've been told a few times that the majority of movements in and out of the airport are off.
newer, quieter, less polluting models.
of helicopter.
and my own observations.
I will not have every single helicopter coming in, but.
from my own observations that that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case, there are quite a lot of older models going in and out, so I wondered if those numbers.
are they tracked within these numbers and can we track?
the age of
for the year of manufacturer of helicopters coming in and out, maybe we look at the average age to just save that statement about new earned, saluting no less noisy helicopters is actually fact or not.
thank you, Tom, did you want to come in on that nothing, the answer is no, we we, we can't supply that because of Islay.
the data we have is the ridge and the aircraft high, so it has to be, it has to search the age of the aircraft, each individual one by Reg you know, and that's only really if the British registered it's quite easy to get the information on jam 5 for any British registered aircraft that'll say the age of if the foreign arrivals say so while the man registered it doesn't have the same information.
we
it is, it is hard to say, when we do get a lot less older type aircraft, they are being phased out, a lot of people are moving to to New Gen aircraft because the the better on the environment, the more fuel efficient for for the owners and yeah OK I'm phased out you don't see many jet ranges in there.
the the smaller one side, they're heavy on the pollution, their outer aircraft, but you do still see them, you will still say these ones, some of the some of the guys that have kept on to them for nostalgia but you don't get.
really out there crossed in there any more.
yeah
well, recipe for utter sorry, since I don't remember if you don't mind coming through me and just yet.
the Commissioner in order.
yeah, I just I just want to confirm, with Malcolm Jamia wasn't mentioned last time in the meeting that we were able to get access to more of the detail of the data and subdivided into even more categories.
so so at the last meeting, the request was for broken down by single-engine versus.
dual engine, and Matthew kindly clarified that.
about six and a half per cent of the 2023 movements were singular engine movements last year, sorry, we have been able to do that analysis.
OK, so maybe it might be worth for the next meeting and maybe doing one an age, for example, but yeah, did you want to come back and done?
yeah sorry, I was just I just wanted to push back a little bit on what he's saying.
that there are less older ones and more nuance, but actually also saying we can't track that, so we don't know, I think, as far as I can tell, most most of the traffic is G prefixed helicopters and certainly that data is easy to look up.
so that tickets that much of a stretch to to measure that at least for a British registered box.
and then, if what Matthew saying is true, he can point to the statistics and say say it's true.
I cannot see exit slightly pushing back, it depends what you constitute as older aircraft, where what what year do you seize an outer aircraft, well, the other one is says newer aircraft, so what do you regard as a newer aircraft, not an old one?
sir yeah, yeah, everyone's gonna have a very indoctrination of this, I think it will probably be so if, in the next meeting we did have some days on that, I guess.
was there a particular age of aircraft that you know kind of like how you know with a US expansion, like you know the same percentage of because over the season wouldn't be compliant in that sort of thing is there, or is there a sort of?
lacquer and age that we can use the divided possibly.
10 years and up there is a basically some bottles, just have new types you share is rather like you, buy a Ford escort in the old days, and you gotta have a mark on ESCo even or modify the scope, so no and manufacturers don't usually change the engines out that great amount either. So if you're gonna do it, I would do I would pay personally, I'd take a 30 year 30 years because that's that people don't swap helicopters out that often
because the ploddy expensive and they hold their value quite well, so I would say 30 is a good thing now the snakes are the iceman.
are now coming up to 50 years old you know.
so where do you go, but the engines have been updated all the time?
so just because you've got an old Efrain, doesn't mean to say your engines haven't been modified and updated.
though it will be very difficult to do, and I'm not surprised that the the report is pushing back on you because it would take a lot of work and a lot of mucking around with GMPTE, and they probably don't have the time.
it is that data not already accessible to the the Councillors, in the same way that we were able to subdivide the categories.
by the two single engine, I'm sure the age is a bit more complicated.
Joe Jamie, did you go on about Item T type of aircraft is quite obviously whether it's single or twin, but your age is gonna, be more no in that study of GMCA.
OK, Jamie Joseph coming on that yeah, so I was just going to say.
the information that we get includes a registration code, but just having a very quick look at 1.00 was sent through and I don't know whether Matthew you can confirm this, but there seems to be quite a lot of unique aircraft in so it's not it's not that you're getting the same 10 helicopters in every time in which case I'll be quite quick for us to look it up to give a rough estimate of how many unique helicopters you see over a month.
what you mean when you say NI unique, so they know with one hand and say very often well I mean.
how many helicopters would we need to look up on this G system?
each month, because it seems it could be over 100 300 or.
while on a on in July, you took in Punjab plus 150 plus, and on on the quieter moments you probably look in IT and IT plus.
so it would take sorry, I think the answer channels it and sorry that's that's only the J registered one, she will not get the information on non-gay registered aircraft yeah, I I think we've yeah, I think we've understood that yeah, there'd be some that we wouldn't be able to get the reference for, I guess.
it'd be just making use of what data we do have access to.
Tomo Hannah Stewart, because you want to say and if you notice that I just don't know, I'm just because we keep hearing this statement that you are quieter, helicopters are coming into the Aleppo, all I'm trying to do is get to whether that is just.
a throwaway can I hope that that might be true, or whether there's actually any.
kind of fact behind it, and I've heard from I think wow expert the
if it's more than 30 years old, it's old, but if it's less than 30 years old and it could be new.
or it might not be new, so it's all very vague about this sort of newer quieter helicopter, you know I just I just don't know if you just access Council, if it's actual it's actual fact or myth that there are new models coming in are quieter and less polluting.
it's it's very unclear to me and I you know, I do see regular incoming helicopters that are.
with years of manufacturers from like 2006 and so on, which, as a lay person, seems quite old to me, and certainly the noise that comes of those is noticeably louder than things built in the last five years, for example, so I can hear the difference between
newer and older models.
obviously I'm not an expert, but I can see what I can say and I can hear what I can here, but I just don't have a feel for the overall picture and I mean I think I'm hearing.
sort of conflicting views on that, I think that's what I'm hearing.
OK, so yeah, continuing second mafia, I suppose.
I guess, but you say that your your your statement earlier about that have been more modern and cleaner ones, which you say that's more just what you've nursed personally, or is there any sort of underlying data, even if it's not the deep dive helicopters by aides that we were saying that Councillor Paul you have to do and so yeah did you have any like as a sort of starts to back that up or would you say it's more just from your experience like on the on the helipad?
if you're talking Murphy on me.
sorry, sorry, I missed that keep our cup, can you say that again, so I was just saying from what Tom was saying and I've seen from your earlier statement, where there were where he said that there were.
get more modern, quieter helicopters are saying, did you have any sort of statistics to back the Apple? Is that more disorder? From your experience of man in the helipad Yves, you seem to have noticed a bit more, but is not really quantifiable, and if we did need to if you did want any data, then it had to be this deep drive on the age statistics that we've just been talking about, it would be, it would be hard to give you exact stats, but I can tell you now that there are a number of operators and owners that have tried at their old ones in for brand new machines, and that's within the 18 months that I've been at the helipad, so I've said, numerous numerous changes and in our team will back me up there and outer 1 0 9 will be noisy wren and cause more pollution than a brand-new 1 0 9 sp. That's that's. That is fact.
care and an equally recalled, anecdote yeah.
sorry on on terms point as well about the noise, now it's all good and well saying that, but you could have allowed one coming in within with a strong wind facing towards the direction of his house, which would intensify the noise you could have a quieter one coming in that has the
the quieter one, coming in it has the the winger in the opposite direction, so he won't hear it, or vice versa.
sign that you can hear it and you can differentiate
it all depends on wind direction as well, wind direction plays a massive massive k and noise as well, so.
I think the only way to to really tell it is is with noise indicators and
whilst states, but obviously the heliport doesn't have the time to to provide stats on the age of the aircraft.
but for from my experience, and this is not May talking from a biased experience, it is talking from me as a as an IV negation enthusiast, because I am.
there has been a significant amount of people changing their outer aircrafts and our aircraft, I can think of the top of my head, three or four honours within the last six months that have done so, and that's that's not even that's not even going from a really out one that's going from a in our 2010.
OK.
which is how many sort of operators as the helipad to work with and just her acoustic as if they.
as if, like some of them have mentioned to you that they've changed the phrase and got new motors, then now might be another way, so since she gets some data, if we just ask the outdoor answer, all of the authorises answer instead they're not, they're not outscored dinosaurs' own and don't want to you know, I don't care whether they get any wise that they don't care, they're looking into alpha options, you know we, we accepted or an aircraft in that was with the head, Safin, a sustainable aviation fuel. This is the next thing that people are looking at. I've got numerous operators asking me about Safin and whether they can come in and and they want to do these things. You know, it's enough another one as well for you, on new aircraft, the London's air ambulance, they've got the two old explorers, they are this year and I saw them yesterday in the hangar at Oxford have got brand spanking new Airbus Haitian free fives
and as the Guardian added the direct everyone, even even charities like the London's air ambulance, are looking to change some of the older outer aircraft like the
you know, I am the MD NA, so you explorers is impossible to get parts now, and so people are going well with, so you can't get parts, let's change, or it is what's happened, the industry moves forward, as as Tim says, you know, for someone that's got an old Ford escort.
they've probably struggled to get parts now, so they're trying to emperor a focus for yesterday, Monday or whatever the the lightest one is.
yeah, OK, yeah, now I do understand and it will, it will be obvious that the authorities are going to upgrade the stock, I guess I was just asking whether there'll be another way to quantify it and James you should have your hand opposite from earlier or did you know is cited as a suggestion?
in one just thinking from what would be the ideal situation?
the ideal situation would probably be that any operator that uses the how report by and I am not saying we do this, I'm just saying this would be the ideal thing is that by every year they submit a report of the the aircraft. They have and any information that's useful, like the age and the emissions, possibly or the noise level, and that submitted to the report and then the helipad can just say which which of those aircraft were used with the statistics, for example, in that way there wouldn't? We need to look at the information on GFO, for example, and it would take into account any aircraft that have been rear-engined and had improved, even though the airframe was 30 years old, they had a two year old engine, for example, have much lower emissions and have been re satisfied as that, so I'm saying if that's that would be an ideal situation, because then we will get all the information. It would be very accurate and would give exactly the picture we wanted to know and I suppose the question is how close can we get to that ideal situation?
and you know we might not be able to get anywhere near, but that would be in, and that would be an interesting so experiment, just to say, how close can we get to them?
yeah, the as that's a really interesting idea, I've ever saw along the vein of but yeah I asked a question about an individual operator, yeah, it will be useful with.
well, I guess it all depends on how many of Richardson there might be likes more individual ones, but especially for the larger ones that have multiple units, we'd be able to get some really useful data if they work to submit that, and then the heliport themselves would need to do too much with it and we could even be that.
the Council could not access that and then made the data then get the data themselves for the committee did you have any thoughts on that Matthew being just inhaler?
so I hold a six monthly operates as mates in, I can are compulsive with them, but I can't promise anything, I don't know what Tim thoughts are as a.
from the by ha what might come out from the authorises,
they will tell you the age of direct graft if they know, but it all depends what they are certification was he asked her now the aircraft, when it is certified, the manufacturer will state what the notes profile is.
so you know it is, it is part simplification now.
but I don't know what you're gonna do, what the data is going to prove you're collecting data, but what are you going to prove with it, that's the question.
I suppose.
I suppose so the more database Christie the better, because then we don't need to ask the bonito fetcher straight away and the Yohann of his Rodriguez.
I was just going to say exactly the same thing that you said, it's just it just helps answer the question that the tunnel asked, which is what is you know, is the profile improving and how quickly is improving and and what is the noise profile?
you know compared to obviously the original 1 9 6, and that's the really interesting point.
OK.
Jamie did you want to come in on any of those points, yes, I was gonna, suggest as a kind of.
compromise option that what we could do as officers is look at a sample month of Op of helicopter movements and ma am worked backwards to find out the aircraft age, accepting that we would only be able to do that for British registered a craft and it wouldn't necessarily reflect HD engines.
as I said, we would have to, we can only commit to doing that as a sample for one month or a one-off rather than an ongoing thing, because I think it would be quite time-intensive to do, but it would show the approximate profile of age of of the helicopters coming in and out.
yeah yeah seems reasonable.
yeah, I do also like the because maybe the Council could do that and then also like Matthew said, if he's got that meeting with the operators, he could just give a tentative AQO he doesn't need to be asking for strong commitment and just seeing what can that what could be done, would it be possible Hammers' outfit of a be so then we can find out if it is possible to get that data and then we can decide whether it's something that we want to commit to.
Tom we'd like to come in yeah, I mean I think there is, I appreciate the challenge of collecting the data and I do not.
after all, I don't want us to go mad collecting data unless there's a real purpose, but I do think it's just to get back on terms point that it helps nothing.
legitimise his statement that you know the helicopters are getting newer and are getting quieter, and I think that helps him, and it's not just a throwaway line to keep residents quiet, but the other thing is, if we ever get to the point where we decided, actually some helicopters are just too noisy to be going through residential areas and we want to work with the operators, for example, to to discourage them from using the I would allow the models than having SMS sent data on that helps couldn't make that argument as well as we get to that point. So do you think there is virtue in it and whether we want to do it all the time, so we'll see very question to go to a sample might be helpful
and I think actually you can get you can get the age on of non G registered as well, I certainly was able to do it for.
Isle of Man and one or two other countries, so as possible to get the year of manufacture beyond the UK as well anyway.
next under the command avenue, I promised not to raise it again on this item as a
advocated y version reasonable points. I suppose to close this section, maybe Mafi, would you like to come back with one more and maybe say like, and if you have sort of happy with that resolution of and the Council to collect the data for a month and see if there are any worth and when you have your when you next have your meeting with the operators just to explore and see where there'd be feasible vertical at that data, does that seem like a reasonable course of action? Yeah yeah also obviously caviar, I on Thames point that I will get the Ayes, but we won't know the engines
the life on that.
yeah, yeah yeah, we, we supply you with the the information with the yeah, you know, it's it shows to do as you choose with the
yeah, and if we got to a point where?
all of the information supplied was enough and then asked that the Council can just do what we want with it, then it makes the job easier for the helipad as well, because you don't need to try and deep dive yourself.
yeah OK, well, it seems like a, it seems, reasonable, then so this was just a disgusting pointless now and we've got some some action points now, so am I OK to move on to the next item on the agenda?
OK great, so that was a information on helicopter movements and now we have a agenda item number 8, which is helicopter noise complaints.
so I don't know if you wanted to have a quick intro on that Murphy.
yeah and Coia, quite a quiet one for January and March.
ultimately, January and January to March tends to be a quiet one for us.
quite surprisingly, we had no complaints for the Cheltenham weekend.
it was relatively busy for us, but.
no complaints were received, one of the ones on the point there and, and this is often the case with a lot of noise complaints, one with Gulf November puppet tango Victor flew over the house at early doors, I think this was on a Saturday as well, we weren't even open then once again we we tend to get the flak for transit in aircraft.
we just just because the helicopters flying within our IT say it doesn't mean it's anything to do with us and you know that arts back to the point of noise and and pollution in a 50 year old chinneck will do what I want though they'll transit alright, he said and have nothing to do with a heliport, so they'll keep you awake at whatever time Apaches, lynxes or surprise at any anything like that will transmit our IT said and we have nothing we can do about them, no say whatsoever.
lie like I said, I will reply to to most my snores compliance, I can't really do a lot with some that I get the you know, it's been noisy for five years and I I need any examples and it was what's caused the noise, what what specific aircraft, what have they done when someone gives me or an actual aircraft and what they've done? You know if someone said how this one's been
running running roads is running on the on the FA on the heliport for 10 minutes, I can then look into it and investigate it, but just saying are the helicopters noise, it is keeping me awake, it's disturbing Martin's mate in well, it's it's it's next to a heliport, isn't it, you know, it's it's it's bound to happen, is you know,
they've got there's got to be some tacked with these these complaints, but you know again I look at them or one or other taken more seriously, but some, I think, kind of think.
because you know there's not enough art, there's not a lot I can do with someone that just says I don't like the heliport, it might seem much no obvious, but yes, it's been a, it's been a quiet month for complaints, but it tends to be around this time a year because ultimately the weapons rubbish, so people have got their windows closed as soon as people start opening their windows. The for the first nice day I will get a noise complaint because people forget that the heliport is there because they've got double triple glazed windows and they open it and think 0 my word this, this helicopter is really noisy it's because because your windows open
we we, we instruct all operators or pilots to follow a noise abatement rose, we have them in place, there stripped in place, and we often tell operators if they, of course, this is an issue and we try and prevent issues where possible we are doing all the best we can.
thank you, Matthew Councillors were due.
thank you, I'm just a question on price, that's actually how these are these complaints that are sent directly to the Holocaust, are they forwarded on from each of the three councils present how these complaints?
gathered,
the the ones on the typo, the ones that I've got from, so I've had some from Councillors direct, which I'll have sent a response to I've had some from Members of Parliament as well, they have they've gone that way to try and cabaret attraction on it, but we have the online noise complaint form which people can submit on their and occasionally we do get phone calls, but obviously the staff are busy, so we, we direct them to to the noise complaint form because sometimes they cut, they don't have the time to write all the information down at least giving someone the form they can put as much information as they want as possible and then that then stops May having to go back to them and ask for more information.
obviously, if that did, I need more information, I will ask, but it gives someone the the ability to.
say what they need to sign on the form and.
yeah slipped into.
OK so.
sir, I'm just I'm asking because I say to RBKC officers, and they mentioned that the Transport Planning Team received two complaints in January, and I'm just not sure whether or I didn't see them, they weren't sent directly to me, scientists show if,
this given obviously.
there are three councillors, present, and residents in all three parents are impacted if there's a sort of if the process has been set up, to ensure that all complaints going directly to the report, sorry, I don't know if he had any.
any inflammation from RBKC, I just want to check with you whether you had the the the the the ones that are on the the form itself are, from our online form, alright okay, the ins an exhumation to take away and to ensure that all the anecdotes of this advocacy is represented in the complaints process for the meetings to know all the residents' concerns are clear thinking.
not worry, so I can only act on the ones I know about yeah, thanks that's why I checked with with our officers have easily, so thank you.
and Tom Parry and
I suppose, because one thing I was going to say was to support Matthew just said, he cannot react some of the complaints he knows about, I mean, I think one hour ago I'd like to see this group relatively recently, so I'm not a long time to
gauged this really but outside the formal complaints that go on the report website noise complaints page is really only the tip of the iceberg of people who are just, then I think the feedback I've got is.
there are a lot of people have given up complaining because what they get from nothing, this is not criticism, that's you, Matthew, gives an explanation of the fly neighbourly policy in the Section 106 restrictions, and so on.
and nothing and nothing changes and are disturbed by helicopters that are.
complying with the fly neighbourly policy and the Section 106 restrictions so.
it feels like complaining doesn't get them anywhere and they give up because it is a little bit cumbersome to fill in that form.
and then will you get the same explanation back every time
you know what's the point of complaining, so it's likely that those complaints will dissipate, but what I do know is this.
a WhatsApp group,
and there's a a next door would make, both of which have lots and lots of complaints about helicopters.
that was some of them are not even landing at the Holy Cross. I don't know, but plenty most of the noise is when helicopters are coming in to land or taking off, and now I think there are lots and lots of people who are kind of complaining about that in a very informal way and an awful boy, so I suspect there's a lot more and I do wonder about the virtue of the complaints system as we currently got it, because clearly it has a lot of complaints, it costs Matthew and his colleagues to a lot of work to explainable and that is we're only capturing the small number of them as things currently stand, so we're not getting a very good picture and I think
then they maybe that
maybe that's something that we can consider anew, I thought, Councillor Alexander, I think he was looking at a way of getting people to lock things a bit more systematically and a bit less formally at the same time dietetic bags, I don't think Hammersmith and Fulham have made progress on that to date.
so I'd done it, I think they're, they're more complaints than you'd see on the report today, but most of them are around helicopters that are landing and taking within within the restrictions, but that doesn't stop that doesn't hide away from the fact that they are disturbing residents and to a significant degree.
yeah and sir said it would be a similar case for how yeah, I have recently been Safe Neighbourhood Panel meetings, and they say that you know that issues with anti-social behaviour, but then that police officers would only have a few complaints about it because it's done informally and that's the frustrating thing because you can encourage them to report it but then yeah, some people might choose not to on the kind of issue with it.
doesn't get hard.
did you want to come in on the?
now I have got nothing nothing, because when we put off we put our restrictions in place, we follow the the 1 0 6 snot not much else we can do really yeah.
it's sir she the Kathryn.
yeah, I say so, one of the things I was thinking about is that people often would like.
to have a little bit more information about more transparency as to what is actually a lot and what isn't allowed, so where are the no-fly zones, for example, what are the no-fly periods, I know I'm just wondering whether it would make sense to to have that kind of information closely to the complaints form so that people can actually see that when they look at the complaints form,
I mean, that would maybe cut out some of those complaints which are not justified.
and focus more on the ones that odd sort of outside of what should be.
but what is allowed, and the other thing I was wondering about, is that I understand that complaints also go through Heathrow airport and.
I am wondering whether there is any connection between the helipad and Heathrow Airport to to look at complaints also refer to Heathrow Airport just to say what sort of the
in the scope of complaints might be in order to power them, as was said before, I mean, if people don't complain that nobody knows what the problem actually is, and it seems smaller than it actually is.
so, on the one hand, being aware of what were the the issues are but on the other hand, focusing on the ones that are outside of what was allowed, thank you.
that's. That's a really that's a really good point on the the complaints form on the website, and I will take that on board, and I will do something about that because I think that's a really good suggestion, I think, having or having a little display to the left-hand side of the compliance form sign. These are opening hours if a helicopter is hovering over an area. It's not not anything to do with the heliport because we often get complaints about the air ambulance, the the the place in a once, a HOV, rhino or people that are filming, that there's nothing to do with us. You know so, yeah, I'll take that on board and I think that's a really good order
I agree to, so thank you, yeah, as usual suggestions have been to do us wanna come back on her point about the sort of communication between Heathrow and the heliport.
I mean, as in Haifa airport or Heathrow air traffic control, because so we we get our aircraft from Heathrow special, where for which is what they will pass the or any any flights onto us, so I know we often cite.
to papers that have compliance now, you might want to give Heathrow special a cow.
sorry, I mean I I can liaise with them, I can liaise with with Hay for themselves, I mean hey for Heathrow's noise compliance, so I don't know the the local constituents have complaints about the Heathrow.
throughout parfait it's an easterlies.
it has to be OK here, I have seen, I have seen a Twitter page, so I have seen a few few complaints from from that side of things, but it just wasn't sure how much I made.
OK, actually, I Smith with some paper hefo and say what what the their views are, I get from from our within our traffic zone.
that's a, that's a quick e-mail and the ones I long for my son, I'm happy to have a look into that.
and just to get a comparison of what they get in one.
on Abbey for information as well, I'd imagine that this is largely because, obviously they have a type of an inland in every 30 seconds yeah we were way down.
I can imagine.
why did anyone else have any points that they wanted to raise a prettiness complaint, we got a few?
is for actions that are drove in noted in the minutes.
I feel like yeah, there will be grab, was the suggestions, so did anyone else have any other comments.
no OK well, with that we can then go on to the next meeting.
final item on the agenda, which is next meeting date.
one is just noting that the
the next meeting will be on the 22 of July.
so I take that as noted.
yeah, OK.
I think that's everything then for for business so.
I know that we said that we would, but when outraged at the constitutions there were enough doing the Uribe, we're doing this sort of Murphy questions, I do not that apply to this meeting or not.
I just want to double-check Jamie yeah, Michael God, thank you Chair them through you, so all the changes go into effect, essentially from after this meeting an update document will go to members.
for all the rest of representatives, you'll be contacted of this meeting to confirm if you're happy to be renominated, I know for mistreat, and that means every nomination at the very next meeting, but otherwise for the questions and answer that will all be for the next meeting so will hopefully have the work programme in place then as well.
and we can start having things such as the air quality study update, and I think the only other thing worth mentioning is, as per the Constitution, we would then have a rotation in chair but will be in contact with the relevant Councillor in advance to discuss that with them.
yeah
yeah yeah so yeah, this will be last meeting and I am chairing, so thank you for your haven't confession, Gerry Michael and Colin.
it must be really helpful to have on these, and I suppose if anyone else has any other points that they want to raise, then we can close the meeting, such as anyone haven't even necessarily wanted to say.
OK great, my last meeting is a quick one, that's always good, sir yeah, I thank everyone for Fay Wayne and fair discussion and our seawall at the next meeting, that's on the 22nd, thank you, thank you.