Licensing Committee - Tuesday 12 March 2024, 6:30pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

Licensing Committee
Tuesday, 12th March 2024 at 6:30pm 

Agenda

Slides

Transcript

Map

Resources

Forums

Speakers

Votes

 
Share this agenda point

the good evening, everyone and welcome to this Licensing Committee.
this meeting is being webcast and some officers may be accessing access in virtually please bear with us if we have any technical difficulties, my name's Councillor MacLeod, I am the Chair of the Licensing Committee.
I now invite the members of the Committee, when I call your names out in alphabetical order, police switch on the microphones and can to confirm your attendance, and, once you've confirmed, don't forget to switch off afterwards, OK, so in order Councillor Birchall,
Good evening, thank you.
Councillor Davis,
that will remember, under the fossils of the names I can see here, Councillor Councillor Justin Depp, good evening.
Councillor Pridham, good evening, Councillor Rigby.
yeah
Councillor Fraser,
below and Councillor Jeffreys
good evening.
we've received apologies.
I am so sorry that your Oklahoma shrieks, Councillor Osborne, are you here, it turns out, I am actually yes, that's really good to know.
I said I had apologies, we've we've received apologies from a number of Councillors.
including Humphreys, Lawless, a French Jeffrey and May Yorkists and members, I'll go for the stuff about switching your microphones on offer, we know this stuff by now, to be honest, OK, so agenda might agenda item 1 minutes from the last Licensing Committee which for those who he remembers on the 25th of October last year,
you don't need to have been present to to agree the minutes
are there any issues or any points that anyone wants to raise, or can we accept theses?
a great wonderful, thank you.
declarations of interest are there any declarations of either pecuniary or registered up penury of a registrable or non vegetable interests, please declare these quotes in the item and the paper.
there were none wonderful.
OK, so agenda item 3.
this is the 5 year 5 yearly review of the Council's Statement of Licensing Policy.
yeah, this is, this is something that we have to do every five years, and, Caroline Sharkie, I can see you there cannot shock, you will just presented you, you'll have read it, but just to give you a very quick heads up before you come up with any questions kind of shocking,
thank you, Chair, and I walk into the report, I'll give you a brief summary and mindful that members have read all the paperwork in front of them, so, as you say, Chair, this is a five-yearly review of the Council's Statement of Licensing Policy.
and we are required to adopted every five years. They are current policy chair is going to neatly need to be reviewed by May this year. At its meeting on the 28th of October, the Licensing Committee approved the amendments to the current Statement of Licensing Policy for the purpose of public consultation and also approved the arrangement for the consultation. The consultation took place between 30th of October last year and 12th of February this year. This involved consulting with all the responsible authorities under the Licensing Act, the solicitors who regularly represent licensee in the borough or trade associations, Ward Councillors, residents associations and all the other key stakeholders that are listed in the committee report Chair under paragraph 6.2 in addition, copies of the consultation document were published on the council's website and we also published a consultation document on the social media or social media platform of the council, including the local newspapers. We received 48 responses to the consultation. The process of the comments received is attached at Appendix B of the report, which has produced some pages 71 to 116 of the agenda, an indication of the,
comments made to the draft policy and where reasons have been accepted or rejected has been replied to in the appendix document or from the comments received Chair, these were mainly relating to the accumulative impact of licensed premises in some areas of the borough and also the recommended framework of hours to be reduced in residential areas there were issues on or in relation to street or street drinking and planning permission once the premises come before the Committee. Each of these concerns have been addressed in the responses that will provided a in at Appendix B of the document and we have also responded and in detail and a paragraph 7.2 of the report which is on pages seeks to 7 of the agenda.
at its meeting on the 25th of October last year, the Licensing Committee may recall a discussion took place on the need to review data to analyze whether they are indeed cumulative impact or areas within the borough and the Licensing Authority chase prepared to collect this information and we can refer it to the Committee for consideration and and approval to go out for public consultation some time this year under paragraph 8 of the committee report chair which is on pages 8 to 10 up the agenda, we have provided information to the Committee that the Council, as the Licensing Authority can depart from its own policy or the guidance which is issued under section 1 8 2 of the Licensing Act if the Chief they choose to do so.
but then they have to give good reasons or of their actions.
this is the Committee report before you chair, and I'm happy to to take any questions, but the Committee tonight is asked to approved approved the draft policy which is at Appendix A of the report, and we also asking the Committee to approve for the Licensing for me to make any minor amendments as a result of this meeting tonight in consultation with you Chair and also the Committee is asked to approve the policy for it to be referred to Full Council, thank you.
thank you very much shortly.
so I was committee, now any any issues, any any questions points.
Councillor Battle.
yes, can I just have some clarification on the temporary events notice, I think when we had our last meeting, we would discussing whether or not the number that a venue was allowed to have.
I was going to be increased and it doesn't actually say on the paper, how many temporary events notices.
say a cricket club can have.
thank you, Ms Schalke yeah, and thank you Councillor, do a temporary event notice.
in returning in statutory regulations before COVID appears to the premises could have.
up to 20, but the day the guidelines are which are in in in in the statutory legislation for tenancies, the maximum capacity at premises can have is 15 calendar year, but they can they can't reach over 21 days, so whilst he is 15, but if they have a consecutive 10 that reaches 2021 days then they would reach a maximum capacity and they are also capacities, pay or pay the person who is applying for it. For example, a personal licence holder is entitled to them
10 temporary notices and a non personal licence order is entitled to less than that, but all that information when we get the Thames that is checked by the officers and if somebody's reaching their maximum capacity, we also advise them that they they are nearing nearing their the maximum capacity that they can give and the calendar year starts from 5th of January to 31st of December.
I don't know whether that we have provided some information in the policy in terms of temporary event notices and just trying to check what page number that is, there is a disproof description on what the teams and that the plan does. Paragraph yeah page 43, paragraph 25 of the of the licensing policy will also have that information on the website, so whilst he's seen the policy we've also got a page dedicated on temporary late notice and guidance that we offer out to members of the public and applicants to know whether that answers your question Councillor,
thank you very much it it, it does,
I just ask one other question, residents nearby can't object to or a temporary events notice, can they so if there's a problem with with a venue?
that is having lots of temporary events to do they have to just report it to the new nuisance people. Yes,
that that is correct. Councillor and I think we discussed this at the last meeting last year. Basically, the temporary road notice are just enlarged touch are less bureaucratic PR because a bureaucratic process than a premises licence. That's why the government introduced them, because they are just a notice and occasional event, but I do you know we. We do know that some premises do use them on a regular basis and the only people that can can object to a temporary event notice Eve. Environmental health, section noise and nuisance team and the police Authority. What we tend to do with residents because of the pure nature of the temporary event notices when, when they are being disturbed, though
it or an event results to disorder. We do encourage residents to to ensure that they launch their complaints to the noise and nuisance team. To delight to to the the police also ask, as we work closely together with both responsible authorities and what tends to happens when they are aware of the issues of the previous 10 and I'm talking from experience, is they do object to any future chains that come in? The responsible authority will put in an objection to say No. This notice would undermine any of the licensing objectives because the previously banned
you know, it caused a lot of impact to the residents so that work does carry on, so we would encourage residents to make sure if they are affected by any temporary event, notice to make sure they either put in a complaint to us or the noise and nuisance team and the complaint procedure of how to log. The complaints is on on our website for noise nuisance and the police and also in addition with a noise nuisance Damion, Environmental Health. They have an out-of-hours service. All this information is on the website, the beauty of that if there, if the residents are being affected at the time of the noise, the officers can actually do go out and weakness eat themselves out-of-hours, and then they will be able to make that decision that when any future changes are submitted, they can object to them.
I mean whether that hell, yeah, thank you very much, and I do know that the noise nuisance Team are effective, I've only use them once and it wasn't on licensing, but I know that they are effective, so thank you very much for thank you for that just just for clarity, I think it's worth saying so.
but it's not that we can you can't
object to a temporary event in advance, but obviously you know if, if a record of doing them badly is set up, then then then will reject them in future, says that there is still some some chance for residents to come back, Councillor Justin.
personal licences were introduced in 2005 and everyone who was in existing licensee was automatically given one and subsequently people can apply to get one, but.
in the intervening 19 years, I've not been aware of anyone who has ever been reissued with a personal licence, either by way of loss or by way of them, actually disintegrating, because they are a very thin photocard that was issued in in my case.
August 2005 since that day I've not seen a single.
cut identity card since then, so is there a cost implication that we in Wandsworth because I've seen them from other boroughs, we have not reissued them and waved it's Europe supposed to keep the original one, which in my case is 19 years old. The problem is for lawyers, if someone applies for a job and I want them to be a personal licence holder without having that card, I can't they can't prove it to me and I can't get proof back and there's no way of going on
website to find out if they have got a personal licence, OK, if I may yeah.
thank you, Councillor, so yeah, you are correct, personal analysis is where granted way back on the 24th of November 2005, when the Licensing Act was introduced, but they are indefinite and they are granted in two parts, a one is the CA card, part of the licence and also a paper document of the licence. What the regulations say. I'm quite happy for my head for Guy Bishop to chip in is that either the they're only required to change the personal licence if you change your name, you change your address.
those you know if there is a change in in your personal circumstances, then you can you can request for a replacement of the personal licence and, and it's 10 pounds 54 replacement, but they are granted indefinitely whilst they are granted indefinitely. They can be reviewed at it at any time if your personal licence order was convicted of a relevant offence under the Licensing Act. We do get that because the police do personal licence holders do get jobs in a licensed premises to become a designated premises supervisor, so their licences are then scrutinised by the place and then they come before the Licensing Committee to make a decision whether that personal licence order can continue. But yes, you are right if you wanted an updated licence, you can contact the Licensing Team and we can reproduce your licence with a a new photo ID common photo ID that we can incorporate within your licence done with the bat helps
frankly, I am not suggesting that the Councillors for trouble have changed in 20 years because I'm sure it hasn't.
did I see Mr Bishop's hand up?
that was a legacy hand.
OK.
any any Councillor Fraser.
thank you, it's just so distinct looking at some of the consultation responses on this, and I think it kind of testament to some of the the licensing committee, so we've probably all or sub-committees, I should say that we've all sat on it's kind of that tension that comes up in this, obviously in the feedback a lot of stuff about saying I'll adopt the anti-social behaviour is to do with noise to do with street drinking and kind of trying to apportion that to either kind of bars or kind of shops which we know.
it is very difficult to do, but it is obviously quite sensitive to efforts for many residents who live in those areas. I guess it's kind of whether there's a view as to how how, as a committee we could or as Councillors we can then look at that and maybe say I don't know if there's a policy or kind of wording that can come out that we can use to reflect in those comments because obviously it's very difficult to say, although it definitely comes from that bar, the noise that definitely comes because that shop sells tins that people buy after a certain now you see what I mean, but it's kind of that feedback that comes back to us every
every time we have a consultation in every Committee we have, but I don't know whether there's there's a way that we can move past the that feedback that we get.
in
thank you through you, Chair. Basically, this is why we are saying that there might be areas within the Borough that are saturated that I've got that accumulative impact as a result of the feedback, but we we need to go out and gather that evidence for you, members and present it to you, and if there is evidence that some areas in the borough, I do know from the report the comments that received that Putney High Street or to t. If those areas are saturated with licensed premises then you will. Those residents will be affected with a cumulative impact effect as a result of the licensed premises. But we need to go out and gather that intelligence and then presented to the committee and is then for the committee to decide whether yes, there is sufficient evidence to say those areas are
I've got an impact, and then we will have to go out for consultation, then adopt what is code as accumulate in fact policy what that means, Councillor is that when applications are before you as a result of objections or representations from a responsible authority, then you can take that into consideration to say right that areas actually accumulative impact and then you can make your decisions whether to grant the application and to reduce the hours 0 to 2 to just make a decision based on the on the fact that that area is saturated.
EWHC you could actually do that and and that the cumulative impact Policy can be can be formed part of the a policy document whilst this can be granted, we can still go out and carry that way could be a BCA which can be formed part of the document and help you to make those informed decisions.
and whether that means.
yeah, that's very useful, thank you.
Almora questions or queries.
OK.
thank you Vernon in that case.
does it need to be agreed or?
yeah
OK so wow with all that in mind, I ask the committee whether they agree with the recommendations in.
wherever they were, I've lost my page, to be honest, so in 2 and 3 yeah.
wonderful.
so, moving on to agenda item 4, which is a review of the fees
Babu Singh, whose presenting this?
the result by sorry, a report by the Executive Director of Finance and the Executive Director of Environment and Community Services. Are you speaking to this as well? Yes, thank you, Anne Jenkin, and this is a a yearly review and chair of the fees and the paper that you have for the Licensing Committee. Fees are gambling fees and we have to review them every year to come into force. On the 1st of April, you will see from the report Chair the the gambling fees are set at the maximum LHA Labour majority of them, and we are just proposing to slightly increase those ones that have been and not been said for quite a while, and these are some of the transfers and reinstatement of licence applications under the Gambling Act 2005. And basically you know, we are just asking Members to
to consider the proposed fees and to approve them if posted, but I am happy to answer any questions or any points of clarification at this ch or at this time Chair, thank you, thank you very much.
Councillor Buckley thanks this phase on page 113 of these phase, that the gambling centres bingo et cetera, needs to pay annually, or is this just when they set up their business thanks?
I am shocking.
thank you, Councillors, so they face the estates up in appendix I'm just pulling out the report just bear with me the the gambling fees are the fees that we charge for applications for new applications, annual fees, and also for reinstatement or transfer.
of a of a gambling licence, some of the fees are statutory and some of the fees are set at maximum levels, the the gaming permits those fees are set out to statutory by government. We can change them. The ones that are in Appendix 1 of the report for the for the Gambling Committee report. Those are the ones that we can said, but we have got a maximum capacity that we can say to map and what we're saying is the those fees, most of them have set-up mass maximum capacity that the council can charge. It's only they transfers a restatement that where we've we've increased
Hill to clarify, lie on a betting premises at the button.
which of which of these fees could we perturb.
in which it went out to put her based on national government.
thank you, and through you Chair, so an A in Appendix 1 of the report and the the the the it sets out the bingo licences so most of the ones that we have proposed.
the the bingo licences, adult gaming centre, family, Entertainment Centre, betting shops they are actually must have been that and actually at the maximum we can charge.
the only ones that the council we can, the committee can stay discretionary are the ones that we've increased slightly late, for example, under the bingo licence, there's a transfer application, the maximum statutory fee. We can say it is 1,200 currently we charge N 500, and we are proposing 950 therein statement is the maximum we can charges 1,200 last year. We'll be charging 1,000 and we are proposing this year to charge the maximum fee, so though those fees the council can set, but most of them are up to the maximum level we can charge
now the appendix to
a document Councillor and through you Chair, these are statutory fees, we can't stay them, they are set by government and
it is quite revealing how how little money the government allows us to take away from businesses that absolutely wreck society and create huge gambling addictions, and we and the the government so slight just a few hundred pound and then society deals with it.
indeed.
any more and more questions on fees.
sorry, just 0 sorry, you have some quick question and just just a double check that those fees were set in the Gambling Act 2005.
it was shocking.
sorry through you Chair I didn't hear that question, sorry, sir sorry, Councillor Jeffreys was asking whether the fees were set as part of the gamble in an Act in 2005. Yes, that is correct, is it the the ALMO for election? Is there regulations they through the Gambling Act regulations, though those fees are in the statutory instrument of the Gambling Act regulations and we can only breach those is statute fees?
yeah, so we can go beyond what deregulation says, states don't know whether that helps to answer the question yes.
the clarification are an one that was introduced very helpful, thank you.
OK.
any any further questions.
OK, so then I ask if we can approve these fees and I approve.
wonderful thank, thank you very much, and thank you, so that concludes this part of the business committee, thank you for everyone for attending one of a short pause and then there'll be a regulatory rethink, but thank you everybody, thank you, Members, thank you.
so, Caroline and Guy, we're gonna start momentarily and again, so we'll be considering this meeting informally and then obviously the fees would continue until these ones are agreed, whether that's through a council's standing order, provision which we have for some decisions or whether we then reconvene regulatory licensing committee a new date as soon as possible but,
Councillor Macleod and Councillor Austin, just moving, they can see you a bit better and then we get started and thank you and thank you guy as well for attending tonight.
in K.
OK, so I get even welcome to this meeting of the regulatory licensing committee, my name's Councillor MacLeod, I'm Chair of the Licensing Committee.
members of the Committee, well, there's there's, there's only two of us here, so in order Councillor Justin, are you here?
it's still here yet and, and I am also here, I'm Councillor Macleod, as I say, we have a number of apologies.
from Councillor Davis, French Humphreys and Lawless.
OK, so I'm going to move in as quickly as possible agenda item 1, which is the minutes from the meeting held on 15th of March. Hopefully we'll go in front of us are him through you Chair, I should just confirm that because we aren't core it, you won't be able to approve the minutes, but you can just note them
apologies, yes, yeah, so the purpose of this is to to hopefully informally, approve everything and then, once we work out what we need to do next, we'll do that, so let's say we can't have formally approved or approved the minutes but are there any any items that we should be aware of or that you'd like to flag up Councillor?
yes.
it.
OK.
that's great so.
are these minutes agreed then from Uzzaman, yes, thank you.
declarations of interest or other any declarations, either pecuniary or above vegetable and unreasonable interests.
wonderful.
agenda item 3 review of fees.
is this is there something else bacon to miss shocking?
yes, Chair, and it is said these are the discretionary fees, whilst retaining the discretionary fees that the council charges which will take effect with your approval, would take effect on 1st of April this year.
I am happy to take you quickly through the report, my in mind for you've read it, so I can just answer any questions or points of clarification with the fees if that helps, so would you like me to go through the report Chair?
the only increases seem to be remarkably in the figure of 6.7% is that it puts the significance of 6.7%.
and so that's the inflation in Fearnley inflation rate that the council generally agreed, but if fees the way these fees are set, we have to take into account the compliance administration fee. We took into account that there was the pay pay increase last year, so they've not largely fluctuated the fees. Last year, when we presented the report, there was a major increase in the fees, so it's kind of the kind of I am aligned. The animal welfare fees. Those have increased, because maybe differences in there, because the animal welfare would always have to do it recharge to the vets fees. So when the bits fiasco goes up every year that can affect the the fees and charges that the council put out because we have to recoup the cost of running that service.
does that help, Councillor, I mean, I mean, there's nothing in any of these fees that is going to frighten anyone in any of these applications or lines of inquiry, it's about some the average Wandsworth residents' monthly gas bill, so I mean, how do you think these fig trees? Anyone could object beyond the fact that they seem remarkably low
that's a good thing to hear yeah, we're not, we're not trying to be punitive, and am I right in thinking shaky that we, we can't charge these to make a profit. We charge these to cover the costs of the centers itself. Yeah yeah, so basically, if we make a profit, we have to have an annual review of the fees and reduce the fees, because the Licensing Service discussed recovery neutral, we're not supposed to make any profit at all, so that's why we review them on an annual basis and throughout the year, so it may be that next year the fees might go up, it might be not, it might not go up so yeah, we're not supposed to make a profit chair thanks for the Exec. I wasn't aware of that. So now understand it a lot better than can be said. The product of Hemmings case
we see that the Westminster
yeah, I've got something stuck.
OK.
any other questions, Councillor.
no further questions, thank you and the same for me, so I'm not sure I say, do we approve still or what we do now, if I can just get the committee to, I guess, either exquisite if you express support that would be noted and then we would then pass that on to the monitoring officer so rather than formally agreeing it would be to support the recommendations.
the recommendation where we both support them, I think that's wrong, and that's right yeah, thank you, I think in.
sorry, Councillors, Councillor sorry Misaki, thank you jam just mindful because obviously they their recommendations for the committee are proven. I do hear what Mike we say in one, and I think it's important to get clarity with our legal adviser Guy, my understanding is they've got to be approved so yeah, our handover through you, Chair out as guy to comment, can you take performance English? Yes, I, this is a unusual situation. The fees are fees for the next financial year, so therefore their fees that need to be approved by the committee by the regulatory committee before the next financial year. So wow when you're not core it
and again, maybe your Committee Advisor can deal with this.
where you're not courage you, you can't necessarily vote in or or approve the actual
fees for next year, my concern is you need to do it before the next financial year happens.
I don't know whether there is any sort of rule that you can apply committee wise to overcome that.
I, I have to say, on the on the detail of we're looking into and I'm not really sure myself, but if what would happen if we hadn't, if we don't get this signed off by the fact that we need to stick to the old phase and with them as in Cash's that what happens here that's the problem and you're losing here,
I understand how many we shoot by.
that's it.
can you grab him and bring him in when I'm sorry the people that are in a licence come in committee, sub-committee don't count as the regulatory committee which I must admit I didn't I hadn't realised that I thought we were all part of the same thing and we were subset but we're not good.
think it might be worth clarifying from the Committee side that I'm intending to speak to the monitoring officer tomorrow, to see what provisions are in the existing constitution that might assist, but failing that, at the same time, what I will be looking to do is trying to arrange another meeting of the Committee and for I think it would be not next week, the week after which will be in the agenda would need to go out next week, but albeit I would need to speak to my head of governance and also then keep Guy and Caroline in the loop but as Guy said at the moment, because we aren't because we can't formally approve them here, but if we
just as an and if we, as was suggested at least show that we are largely in support of these, does that not could we not then have a quick online meeting, rather than if we we can't?
certain committees, yes, so if a committees generally under the 1972 Act or has arrangements under it in it has to be held in person whilst you can have hybrid arrangements like this, it would only be certain committees like a Licensing Sub-Committee where there is I guess, leeway where they could be held virtually but it wouldn't be this one I think guys got his hand up if he wants to correct me or if I've got that right you've got that you've got that right absolutely right.
actually, it's quite recent case law funny enough.
but basically, the 1972 Act applies in relation to any of this business that we're looking at in terms of regulatory, and this led to these these fees for the under these pieces of legislation only under the Licensing Act is there a mobility for you to have a hybrid or indeed a or or or a meeting on a remotely so unfortunately it has to be a meeting in person effectively in the in the Chamber or in a committee room.
okay, well, we'll work, we'll work it out, whatever it is, but that's yeah.
archaic laws, archaic company and case law, unfortunately.
OK, so you've at least expressed our our our broad support for for these measures is that is there anything else I need to do, then what else can I do now so that this concludes the meeting, thank you very much for your attendance, thank you for your support officers and and thank you Councillor Justin as well.
OK.