Audit Committee - Tuesday 12 March 2024, 7:30pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

Audit Committee
Tuesday, 12th March 2024 at 7:30pm 

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welcome to this meeting, my name is Councillor Paul Ammanford, Chair of the Audit Committee, just wondering if there were any apologies this evening, yes, Chair, we've received apologies from independent person Vanessa, with business,
OK, thank you, I would like to welcome the members, I will call your name in alphabetical order, please switch on your microphones, I can confirm your attendance Councillor Caddy, good evening, everybody.
Councillor, quick chart.
hello.
Councillor Hedges.
good evening.
Councillor Marshall,
good evening,
and may I please also introduce our Independent Member Ilva for Taylor Kanye.
hello.
we have a number of officers present who will introduce themselves when they address the Committee.
so I'll move straight to item 1 declarations of interest, are there any declarations of either pecuniary, other registrable or non registrable interests?
OK, thank you, I'll move to item 2 just the minutes, amended in terms of the minutes from the last meeting.
do you agree that these is at our core correct record?
OK, we'll move straight on to Item 3.

1 Declarations of Interests

2 Minutes - 15th November 2023

3 Update on the 2021/22, 2022/23 and 2023/24 External Audits (Paper No. 24-110)

so this is the update on the 21 22 22 23 and 23 24 external audits paper number 24 110 pages 3 to 28.
are there any questions from the Committee members, I'll Hawthorn 1 6, sorry, can we have an introduction, please evening councillors Catherine burst in Assistant Director of Finance?
I will just give a brief, an introduction to the paper the paper, as you said, gives an update on the audits for the three years 21 22 22 23 and 23 24 are firstly touched on the 21 22 position when the paper was written we were expecting to complete the audit last Friday at the moment we're in the very final stages and I have just received the final papers just before this meeting so we hope to sign in next day also.
and to note that this committee has already given authority for the Chair to sign the final set of papers for that to happen, as reported previously, there was no change to the unqualified opinion from E Y and and that draft report, as I said, is just in my inbox.
the paper then discusses the consultations which closed last week from both the Department of levelling up housing communities and also the National Audit Office, as Members will be aware, there is a significant backlog with the audit of the accounts nationally and actually wanted to be in a relatively good position once we signed the 21 22 account some authorities have accounts open going back until 18 19.
the current those consultations suggest the proposals to address this backlog and, in particular, proposed backstop dates, by which time audits must complete or otherwise be issued with a modified or disclaimed opinion this is not a qualification of the accounts, but instead that there is there are scope limitations preventing all the audit work from being completed.
the position for 22 23 for us is outlined in paragraphs 15 17, which outlines that E Y have confirmed that they do not plan to complete any audits at all for 22 23 by the suggested back to stop date of the 30th of September this year. This would mean that the disclaimer opinion would apply for us but that there would be a positive statement to the effect that the Council was ready and willing to be audited. We've been assured that, even though other audit firms were not have yet declared their position, it's likely that they will take a similar approach.
looking forward more positively to the 23 24 accounts, my team are preparing well in order to publish the accounts by the end of May, and the audit team have been refreshed, as it's outlined in the paper, and will be ready to order over the summer with the aim of completing in October and November.
the final section of the report refers to audit fees, which I won't go through in detail, but just to remind that all additional fees need to be justified and agreed through the PSA A for arbitration attached to the report is an appendix A from I want to see why and Janet Dawson is online to answer questions and explain her area of the report and I can take any other questions.
now to move with have any questions.
Councillor Caddy,
thank you very much Chair.
the first question just relates to page 5, paragraph 9, and there is a further adjusted difference referred to within the 21 22 accounts, which was an overstatement of CIL debtors at 8.00.9000000 I just wondered if we could have a quick summary of what happened there and whether controls have been improved and that's something which won't happen again going forward.
thank you, I can give a brief outline which is just to do with where the sole debtor sits on the balance sheet, and a lot of work has been undertaken to make sure that those were correct going forward for the next set of accounts, so I don't know if Derek wanted to add any more to that but I can assure you that yeah extensive work has been ongoing with making sure that we are reporting CIL balances correctly.
I have been happy to come in and he's likely to.
please, yes, thank you so as not to not to add very much more detail, but Catherine's variety, so we identified a balance that was overstated by almost 9 million.
because the financial statements, as originally drafted, included an item which had been reversed by a credit note prior to the year end, so actually the matching of haven't been done, who would pick that up and and had that corrected.
and so is that just one item, or is that the sort of, or is it a systemic problem with internal controls, or so so you'll probably remember from previous reports that we've done on?
on the accounts that CIL was a real area of focus for us and we've done a significant amount of work in that area, other Council officers had also gone back through all of their records and really pulled those together, so I think the committee can take assurance that that work has now been done, this was just a final one of
adjustments, but we identified it, it wasn't systemic at this particular point and therefore we were satisfied that there wasn't a significant deficiency in controls to to to add to what we were reporting, OK, thank you.
Councillor Hedges.
thank you Chair just a couple of questions on paragraph 5, and we talk about additional testing on new or revisited queries.
what gave you comfort that they were OK to close out and also you mentioned 40 journals raised, would be great to understand what the normal average would be.
thanks.
done it might want to take that data, but just to explain that these were the 40 that are mentioned, there are late journal samples that have come recently, since we had the last reports to this committee, there have been significantly more a higher number of samples than that and done it can give the detail of why the sample size is so high.
so happy to come in on that, so where we have new or revisited queries on transactional testing clearly were looking to make sure that we've got sufficient assurance, so where we find an error or actually are given a breakdown of information, that's not a transaction testing level or the evidence is is an internal transfer rather than an external source of,
assurance or evidence, we then have a follow up query on that, so so a lot of that has been just drilling down into the.
information that's being provided to really to get to the level of assurance and evidence that we are now required to go to by our regulator. The 40 journal samples. I think that is probably quite typical. It depends it's it's an area that you'll see in our audit plans, where we have focused on the risk of fraud and manipulation by officers by moving numbers around towards a year end in the closedown period, and we have a very prescribed process where we need to have a look at the total population of journals in the year. Understand how many we've tested through the rest of our regular testing and then make sure that we haven't left a material balance of movements at the year end, which is why they come late. But you know to Catherine's point that those are, since we last reported because they are the culmination of what have we got left, that we need to get assurance over so that we haven't left a material balance untested
thank you.
Councillor Marshall,
yes, I welcome the discussion to restore some.
so I am looking at page 15 of the papers, which is a document prepared by of.
there's headed context for the 2022 23 and 23 24 audits
and I read for the planned measures to be successful and the current backlog to be addressed, it is vital that all stakeholders properly discharge their responsibilities, and you set out what you mean by that, and then you go on to write where this has not done we will,
See cafe fee variation, explain why concentrate available resources on audits, where the financial statements have been prepared to a good quality and on about that, and then the final two bullet points.
consider and report on the adequacy of the Council's external financial reporting arrangements as part of our assessment of value for money arrangements.
and next bullet point consider the use of other statutory reporting powers to draw attention to weaknesses in Council financial reporting arrangements where we consider it necessary to do so.
I found the language there surprising.
so I would like to ask what examples of those?
inadequacies you have observed, or where you have observed, situations where such shortcomings you deem sufficiently likely to take place, that you felt it necessary to put down this written warning in fairly blunt terms.
happy to try to pick that out there, so you'll be aware that the 23 24 audit is the first year under the new contract with PSA. A you'll also be aware that because of their work, that's been going on with the stakeholders to try and reset the the system. There has been a huge debate about whether or not councils have had appropriate resources, appropriate focus on financial reporting and actually the capability to report to the standards that are now being required, and similarly, there has been a huge focus on whether the order to auditor firms have had enough capacity
or whether the regulator is satisfied with the quality of the work that we're doing.
and what's what's very interesting in that the whole debate is that there are penalties against the auditors for failing to deliver to the quality, but there isn't a requirement around timeliness, except now we're introducing this backstop date. There are very few sanctions at all aimed at authorities where they are not taking their responsibilities seriously or have not got the resources or the capability to to do that, so the new contract really gives us all within the system an opportunity to say, Well, let's make sure that we are all absolutely clear on who is responsible for which element of this system and delivery to time and to quality, and there's an expectation that auditors will be far more clear about when organisations are struggling to do that and use our other powers, which are have been rarely used in the past to report and bring those issues to the attention of either the members or the local council. Taxpayers or the stakeholders within the system. Hence the reason this is the opportunity with a new contract really just to set that out in very clear and blunt terms,
examples that we have seen are the Katherine referred to authorities that have their accounts open yeah back to 2018 19, now a significant element of those examples are where the Council themselves have failed to deliver auditable statements and fail to engage in the in the process and their responsibilities for financial reporting, and I think you'll see,
you have significantly more statutory recommendations coming from auditors or reports in the public interest where there are those failings, because there's a there's a mismatch in the balance between the in the system at the moment and that those elements are not being called out, and I think we'll need to do that. Also if we keep hitting a backstop date going forward for those councils that are struggling, we will need to explain why those accounts have not been signed by that. That point, and we will need to be clear where where it's not just as a function of the audit, it's actually a function of the authority, so I think this is just an opportunity for us to set that out really clearly and then make sure that we get the right relationship going forward so that we don't fall foul of
that sort of risk of weakness.
so if I could just clarify, then this is a general statement and you're not by including this raising a flag for this committee to consider about this authority either actual gaps or areas where you consider there to be potential gaps arising.
I'm including as a general statement, but I am including it as a challenge to the committee to say that, going forward, this is the basis on which we will be working as a firm with the organisation, and therefore we would like the organisation to recognise that and work with us at that level so that there are no specific flags at this point but that the stakes of have been raised that the standard has been raised, let me put it like that in terms of what we will be expecting in return in our relationship with the Council.
thank you.
sorry, can I pick up on that one, then I mean it's obviously we've heard from the auditors actually, I'd be very interested to hear from our own team how they feel about this and what assurances you've got about us being able to meet the standards that are the new standards that are required through the current the contract.
thank you, I mean I, I don't think these are new standards, I think these are standards that we are expected to deliver just because it's been being written down in this way in this under this new contract, the these are responsibilities that we take very seriously both of his officers and as Members and can deliver on those points.
Councillor Kevin, thank you very much charges.
I know I know we've discussed the kind of position with the auditors and the national situation at length, but I would like to get certainly my concerns and perhaps the Committee's concerns.
on paper and in the minutes I'm really concerned about the 22 23 Audit, because it certainly sounds from what I'm reading here, like essentially there won't be a a sort of fuller, full audit of the 22 23 accounts, so I'd be really interested to hear what the value for money audit consists of or a bit more detail, I know there's some detail on page 22, but I'd quite like to hear a bit more about how
how the odysseys are intending to get in ch assurance on the accounts through that work.
and also really concerned about the the the sort of fees that are set, how much because, as far as I can tell, there isn't a proper audit being done in 22 23, but the fees look as though they've gone up a huge amount and I I do sort of get the sense from some of this that.
perhaps too much onus is being put on the the sort of financial reporting team and and perhaps there's less concern about the the audit teams that are going to be in place in doing this work. I I don't really understand why E Y can't do the the 22 23 external audit. They must surely have the resources to do it, and I appreciate this is a national issue and this is what has been agreed by. I personally don't find it acceptable that, as an Audit Committee were being asked to accept
essentially accounts for a full year, it or at a time when we know that lots of councils are under financial pressure, there has been a change of administration and whatever sort of political party or from that is clearly a a sort of enhanced risk for any organisation. There's been a change of chief executive, there has been a huge amount of change going on and we're expected to accept a sort of subpar audit for the 22 23 financial accounts. So I I'd really like. I think
Ernst and Young to or EU-wide to comment on that please.
well, I am happy to do so, so for the 22 23 order you are correct, we are will not be carrying out an audit of the financial statements based on the proposed D-lock.
arrangements there a number of reasons for that, one of which is about limited resources available across the system to be able to deliver all the audits for 22 23, so we will be focusing on the value for money, arrangements which look at the financial sustainability of the organisation, the governance arrangements and the use of information to make decisions across the organisation.
and and the way in which we go about that work is to look at those arrangements across the organisation from top down until.
the point where we are satisfied that we haven't identified either a risk of significant weakness or a significant weakness in those arrangements, so we will look at the structure of the organisation, the policies that you have in place, the responsibilities for decision making down through the governance arrangements and gather assurance that those have been operating effectively and we will report out on that over the summer, so in terms of things such as changing senior members of management staff change in the way in which the management respond to policy direction, we will look at that and provide assurance over whether or not we've identified any risks of or actual significant weaknesses.
the reason that E Y have chosen to focus on that is because we have a responsibility to report on that to the current to the current point, and we believe that that is of use to the local stakeholders in terms of understanding that governance is operating appropriately, information is being used appropriately and that there isn't a risk around the financial sustainability or that or whether or not there is a risk to MFA financial sustainability of the organisation.
by focusing on moving to the 23 24 ordered, it allows us and the Council to move more rapidly back into the regular cycle of financial reporting, and it also means you know if we were to focus on 22 23 now we wouldn't get to 23 24, probably until into next year, which is not timely assurance and so therefore we've had.
our view is that it would be of more value to move more rapidly to the reset.
and timely reporting on financial statements and allow the Council to get back into that regular cycle and that will be of more use to local stakeholders, but that that's our view.
and and I totally recognise that others will have different views about whether or not it's tie me at that timeliness, or that completeness, is what you see as of value we are, that's our interpretation of what DeLuca are resetting within the system.
I am just wondering if I could very quickly just ask a follow-up question in that case, are you gonna be doing additional work to audit the opening balances in 23 24, and I also didn't address the the fee question.
yes, apology, sorry.
so.
in terms of opening balances, it is the the question about whether or not you work back from the assurance that you have in 23 24 on the closing balances is whether whether or not as.
yeah resource and as a way in which you can do that effectively and efficiently. So if you read the D-lock consultation and they FSC system-wide statement, you'll note that they anticipate that the effect of this disclaimer process will take a number of years to wash through in the system and therefore it's unlikely that all opening balances will be assured in the first year. You'll then see that move through, so you'll get assurance over in-year transactions and closing balances, but you may well take. Some elements are disclaimer or limitation of scope through for the next one to two to three years in the accounts. That's another reason why we think it is more appropriate to move to 23 24 now and get back on track because you will move through that process of carrying some sort of limitation of scope far more quickly and on a more timely basis on the fees
the PSA, as Catherine has said, are responsible for determining the amount of effort that has been required and then setting a fee appropriately for that, so the fees that are currently quoted are their scale fee expectation, based on normal scope, and then you'll then move to 23 24 and a much higher visa fee is to do with the new contract, but all of those fees will be subject to determination because clearly as
different elements of the audit are either performed or not performed over this period of time, they will then have to assess that for this Council individually, and they'll do that Council, by Council, to determine what they appropriate fee level is for the work that's been done, so this is just an indication that they had published some time ago before the changes and scope of audit were understood and before we have actually undertaken that change scope of work so they will need to look at all of that.
so am I correct in thinking that you're saying, then that this fee that's quoted for 22 23 will be reduced, because obviously you haven't taken into account the fact that you're doing just a value for money order?
I I, I can't give you assurance that it will be reduced, but I can give you assurance that they will look at the amount of work that we've done and they will determine what an appropriate fee for that is.
what which way they go on that, councillor, I'm you know, that is their decision, not mine, OK, thank you.
I would just quickly, I just wanted to ask one question I mean it's in relation to what Councillor Caddy has has has asked it's I'm just wondering if there is any scope at all because I'm quite uncomfortable and I I think other members are the fact that 22 and 23 22 23, although it will not be taking place, it'll just be value for money, but is there any scope to actually do any testing at all as part of the 23 24 to cover key risk areas?
as part of the 2024 day.
so it will depend on the detailed scoping of the work, so what we put in front of you at the moment is a high level plan that shows you where the key risks are, for example, though when we consider the risk of fraud and when we look at,
significant contracts, for example, then that then there will be an element where we will need to consider vouchers case-by-case for, but is is there a page number for the key risks anywhere in the pack they are set out in our document on our page 10 and 11, so you'll see those
in our document, so there's a high high level as.
a view of the key areas of risk that we would be addressing in the 23 24 audit, but if I, if I just go back to the so, for example, if we assess the risk of fraud across the organisation, we will need to take into account what's happened in 22 23 2 and 23 24 because clearly,
yeah, there may have been some sort of issue, something that's taken place in the organisation that could have an impact on 23 24, so we will be looking at that in a more holistic approach across the two years, similarly, on my example of significant contracts,
if the organisation we always audit has always looked at significant contracts and understand whether there's a risk of manipulation in there or there is a risk of fraud and then how it's being accounted for, we will need to understand what's being entered into or changed during 22 23 that could impact 23 24, so clearly there's there's yeah, a level of detail and nuance for every area of the audit that is difficult to summarise for you, but that we will need to take into account as we're going through that work and then try to explain yeah helpfully but insufficient detail that you can see where the assurance is based, and so you know that that's not, or that's not going to be an easy thing. It's not going to be standardised reporting either, but you know that's something that we will need to work hard on to make sure that we're giving you that full information. The 23 24,
Councillor Pritchard, thank you, I thought I was going to say, I don't know if anyone noticed miss miss Kanye was on the screen, I didn't know if she wanted to say something we worked yeah yeah, I have a follow-up question but when you are old and I will ask my officials okay,
just the couple of things about this first fall, you've talked through them what's going to happen with value for money, the question I would then have is if we're doing value for money where the you're looking at what you think key areas risk,
does that mean they are going to be some areas where actually?
value for money won't look at, which could be then become higher risk for us in for in the future.
and also while we're thinking about that.
I'd say paragraph 14, we talk about the Council is clearly in the former group being solely affected by the backstop date, and that might be one of the officers is how do we know that's the position for us, what assurance we got about that?
clearly, shall I take the point about areas that may become a risk or you I mean they the
that's one of the reasons why we are looking at value for money.
arrangements and focusing resource on that because it's
it's a contemporaneous be timely and the yeah builds over time, so we're not leaving a gap of what's gone on with your arrangements or decision-making or use of information yeah, it it, it takes us down through, for example, how do you set budgets? How do you ensure that all of your policy areas in terms of management policy area, so HR operational reporting, etc how do you know that that's all aligned with your budget setting and your financial sustainability? It looks at procurement and what the governance arrangements and decision making arrangements are them procurement, so it it's a comprehensive look across the organisations, arrangements and it, and our purpose in focusing on that is to make sure that its key continually up to updated, and therefore we are appraised of risks across those three domains within the organisation, and we have a responsibility to report those out if we see a risk of significant weakness or identify a significant weakness. So hopefully that gives you some assurance that that that work builds continues and is timely and therefore reports out when there isn't a risk identified rather than leaving a gap and and therefore a risk that something is missed.
I don't know whether the Catherine wants to come back in on the assurance point.
thank you, yeah, the the paragraph talks about the fact that we will be caught by the backstop date, because the the point being that the checks or whether the accounts already am ready, we are ready for an audit, the 22 23 accounts of it were published and are on the website and we are ready for an OJEU, an audit so that's that's why it's phrased in that way so we we are caught by the fact that the auditors don't have the resources to complete the audit by that backstop date.
just wondering it did.
yeah, this wasn't over yet, but I'm here I'm gonna, yeah I follow up with OK, so my question is, my understanding would be that, as part of the audit, you would audit any way the corporate, like the governance structure, every year. You would also audit all the significant policies, so why the change in this value for money audit strategy be from what you are doing anyway, for me, would be just anything that has changed in the year, changing the better known, something so very limited, our scope in the audit, and the second part of my question is, if you're going to order the 2024 year end balances and you don't know whether 2023 year end balances for revenue, for example, and how can you express an opinion, you would normally have to say OK, I'm not sure if the closing balances wrecked and audit or limitation there or some
accounts, if you are not sure about the opening balance.
so the the the value for money work is, as I say, a continual updating of the the key areas of risk, so you're right, it is yours or, as I've tried to describe it, it's an ongoing process.
and
in by doing that, we are able to report out and provide assurance, and we believe to local stakeholders about the arrangements in place and any gaps or risks that start to 2 to appear you're right on the on the closing balances, so it depends on the nature and the area of the financial statements, which is my point about the Farc's overarching statement that they expect that the full assurance will take a number of years to rebuild and that's a made ref they referred to as yeah a reset with this introduction of a backstop date now,
and then that rebuilding of assurance over a period of time, so it depends them yeah and balances, we will be able to audit absolutely with no difficulty without opening balances. Others may be affected, but without going through yeah, line by line on the accounts and then the audit approach, and then building that assurance. It's difficult for me to explain it now, but that that was the point I was trying to make that we're going to have to find some way of explaining that clearly for the committee as once we'd gone through that process so that you can understand the the extent or otherwise of the assurance that we can provide in that first year. Yeah and all the other films, Lloyd, even indeed doing the same thing, because at the moment implied you're gonna be doing almost nothing for 2023, and then 24 is erased, there's a risk there, post unbalancing, not being properly audited
yeah, so so each of the firms are fully sighted, fully engaged on this involved have been involved in the the consultation, each of the firms have different portfolios and different demands on their time, so whether or not they have resources available to do different elements of the work and where they prioritised those resources? But they are all in the debate about how do you rebuild that assurance for 23 24 and how does that go forward and FSC is leading on the conversations between the firms to ensure that there is some consistency as to how that's being done.
OK, thank you, Councillor Kelly.
thank you very much, Chair, I just wondered if this committee is gonna get any further detail on what the value for money, what it means or the planning of value for money audit, because I would certainly like to understand it a bit more detail exactly what the work is going to.
be doing what you can be looking at and the the sort of detail on page 22 isn't particularly in-depth, is it possible to circulate a more detailed audit plan, more detailed information on what that will consist of, or will that come to the next committee, so I think the intention is that we will have probe, we will be in a position to provide you with a report on the VFM at the next Committee and hopefully that will go through a lot more detail for you to show you how we've gone about it, what we focused on and what we found and then there's the plan for 23 24 will also then provide
that level of detail for you and then you'll be able to see that work and play out through the the 23 24 ordered.
Councillor Carrick, chart.
thank you, I'm thank you, Councillor Caddy, for mentioning the audit I was actually at Audit Committee dates, I was looking at page 25, which is the plan, obviously it's.
Ernst and Young one, but I think it would be helpful for us all to see where, where this fits with our Audit Committee dates as well, whether we can just have that put in at a later date or you can let us know, I'm just trying to work out that everything that we get the Audit Committee falls at the right moment after these things to fit with it with this audit timetable sorry,
so if I can take that, we can certainly look at dates and circulate something outside of a committee if we don't have a full committee within the time scheme, timeframes that we're working to, but the VFM work is already underway for 22 23.
k any other questions.
k just asking members if they are, the recommendations is to note.
sections 1 8 E, are you happy to make that yeah?

4 Internal Audit Service's Charter, Strategy and Plan for 2024/25 and Strategic Plan (Paper No. 24-111)

thanks so item 4 on the agenda is the internal audit services Charter strategy and plan for 24 25 and the strategic plan paper 24 111 pages 29 to 66.
thank you Chair, so the paper before you is our annual.
updating yourselves about the forward look for for the coming year. You would have had one in the previously that did and before then that would have actually covered the the the sort of the audit period that we've just been talking about in the previous paper. You can get some assurance from the work that is ongoing, that you are now doing for the future year so that it would cover those that particular 22 23 year period, and that's why it's key to make sure that when you look at the strategic planning in Appendix C, that he's got that broad coverage over a range of a number of years so that you can see the unless there's gonna be any significant change in operation and direction and that the control environment should be reasonably static
from one year to two another, so the Charter itself, which is the appendix A is on behalf of the south-west London audit partnership so we host or the organisation that covers five boroughs as well as Richmond and Wandsworth, it includes Sutton Merton and Kingston and that is why it's a much broader coverage the than.
you know, you would get if it's just solely for a stand-alone borrower. The appendices over B and C are specific for it to the shared arrangements, and they all outline those areas that adjust would cover the individual borrowers and those that was scope over 4 for both under the shared staffing arrangement Appendix C in particular is shows you were wherein would anticipate, potentially, as of today, doing in the next two years, but as part of the process we would continually review those you had external it talk about you, you know it, you always will be looking at a risk assessment on a continual basis. That's what we do. Each year we go out and we meet with the relevant service directorates to engage with them to tell them, and I anticipate where we think that
the areas that need to be covered, but we consultant engaged with those as well before coming today and putting the plan in front of you, so hopefully that covers you know the process and the the three appendices that are attached to this particular paper.
thank you, I shall say thank you to Janet Dawson before, so I appreciate her attending the Committee this evening.
say Just Councillor Cathy F.
thank you Chair the the big picture question a question for me is page 33, paragraph 13, and in 24 25 we're reducing the number of days, if I understand this correctly, of internal audit by 400 days.
obviously, that's quite a significant reduction 25%.
what other one of the reasons behind this is it what kind of effect is it going to have on the assurance that we can take, you know what sort of driving the reduction and will we see a big cost saving because of that, and I guess that's in the context of the additional risks of off you know sort of various things that are happening in the sort of wider sphere of local government.
yeah yeah, so I can't shy away from from the fact that the 400 day reduction is a result of looking at efficiencies and trying to look across the wider picture to see you know how and when we. We, as Audit, can contribute to the the wider context that I'm looking at the challenging budgets, but I would say, though, is that the number of days that we've I've got the 1,600 comparable to other equivalent borrowers is still really really strong, and I am confident sitting here before that that would give us that broad range and coverage, and that's when you look at that you know Appendix C which shows you the whole breadth of the audits that will look over a five-year lifespan to use previous current and 2 year forward. You'll see that he's got that that good scope that would allow us to do that. If you looked at our peers, which I think against an in in the documents you'll see the three other
borrowers that we serve 16 110 days is much more than those three, so it still is a healthy budget that would give us that broader scope clearly if we thought that there was anything specific that needed to happen and wouldn't be covered within the period, it's a plan, some of those audits are gonna be a lower risk so they could potentially be dropped if need be.
having said that, if it was something that was really severe and needed to be done, then I would go to liaise with Anne Fenella and the chief executive and highlight those risks and we will be coming back trying to get additional budget in order to come and do that, but I do think that 16 110 is a healthy number. I'm confidence in any. I have to sign off to say that I think that I can deliver and give you those assurances and you know if or if, in my professional judgement, I didn't think there was sufficient number of days album money into it, so I'm quite comfortable that this is sufficient for us to look at and to give us that breadth over that five-year period, and that's why not not on a one year but on a five-year basis that we've got plenty
thank you him, and how much of a saving is this generating or what's the plan saving?
I can't remember exactly where the an unthinkably, but it's it's tens of thousands, it's not insignificant, but it's not a large chunk and is not going to be a major element, which is why it was. It was just the 400 days that the that came through at anecdotally you can't do it like for like but a, but we obviously are an audit days. Gonna be roughly 300 odd pounds but but it isn't doesn't work like that because it's staff, so it, and we were able to do that because we've no one was made redundant or anything else like that. They were just posts that were able to be deleted as a result of these changes that were made
OK, thank you.
Councillor Kitchen.
thank you just pick up on something that you said, and I want to speak here about, we talked about 16 10 days each year or where you said over the five years nervous each year, and that's why that's why I'm confident that there's there is plenty of ambition in there over that period of time I was just when you said something about the 5 years
I got a bit twitchy.
1, my question actually is around, the strategy is what has changed in the strategy since the previous year's strategy.
nothing of any material element that might be the odd change in word here and there I don't know whether Andrew there's anything that you wanted to add specifically, that we've altered, but I don't think there's anything material.
thanks for Andrew Hamilton, the head of the shared audit service, so the only change in the strategy is the inclusion of a definition of consultancy work, there was one of the recommendations in making the external quality assessment last year so that's that's the only change of note is that please gosh I don't have the pay packet number but it is at the end of the strategy it's probably the last item.
I mean, if I could just comments the officers, it is really helpful when the changes to the strategies are highlighted, I'm looking at colleagues also on fine, it's just really helpful, so perhaps you know for the next time if we can just have it made very clear to us what we spelt out in words of one syllable what has changed and we don't need to worry about.
whether it how you know what it is that might we might be missing yeah happy to do that it was on page 48, but will then do that next time thanks.
Councillor Hedges.
yeah, thank you, Chair, I know Appendix C is just for noticing, but just wanted to ask you.
Mr DeLacy, I think I've probably asked you this before in a previous meeting, but your scoring methodology for the risks.
can you remind me the how you do that and how often you review the methodology as well, please?
OK, so it's probably more of an art than it is a science, and it's assessing through a number of issues I mean, it would be the budget, it will be anything that's key insensitive over the the.
both in in in the detail of what is being carried out, but also at other sensible sensitivities for in relation to the Council's objectives, but we go and we have regular meetings also with the directorates, so it's gaining their views if you knew that it was going to be a change.
then he would be seeking to to look to building.
a particular audit in into the plan. So if there's gonna be any changes in key systems, that would then automatically become a higher risk because of that sort of nature. So and again, if there are any key issues that we knew that had cropped up through any of the the fraud areas that we liaise with, because obviously we got the 14 sits alongside the audit team, so if you've got a whole host of sort of accessibility and skills, acknowledges that that we use, rather than have a formulaic approach and saying that x amount of budget or x amount of employees multiply by this equates to low medium or high, so I can't sit here and say that there you know and churn out, I think, if you put something into this machine now out, will come out the risk, so it is
more subjective or approach, but that's generally how harmonies, but that's why it's it evolves, similarly to what you heard from external auditor, they will look at it and they will let you know in the same sort of vein it's having that sort of continual process that helps to shape whether it's low medium or high.
similarly, the frequency of it. I mean some of the times that, and that is some of the changes that you'll be seeing with a reduced number of days, are a good example of that is key financial audits. Historically, they were really peace of mind audits, there was no real change in the systems. We're him, I take, we've had integer him embedded for a number of years, so the whole process is the same. Key officers have made the same key control process have made the same, but we would have audited every years because if we had the luxury of giving you that keep that high positivity
assurance, even though there was no material recommendations that had come out from it now, as a result of the reduction in changes, we would not necessarily audit all the areas, all of the time we might be on a on over and evolve, but you look at a chunk each period or you would do it less frequently so they're the sort of changes that that would have happened as a result of the days but also linked into the frequency.
Councillor Kelly,
thank you Chair, it's just a couple of questions on a couple of items that I couldn't see in Appendix B and thought they might perhaps ought to be in their under Housing and Regeneration, there's nothing about regeneration, which is slightly surprising given that two of the Council's biggest commitments biggest schemes there's nothing on page 52 in there and then similarly.
I think we're probably all aware that the Council will be taking on significant amounts of debt during 24 25, which is not something necessarily that's happened in the past and that appears nowhere on the internal audit plan or detail.
OK, so I'm a couple of things stand in general, when we look at budgetary control, we look at key financial systems. You'd be looking at it and that sort of process. We also looked at as part of the annual governance review. Budgetary control is a key focal point within within that, so I would look to see whether or not there was our governance arrangements McClure noted in in changing that, because if they hadn't, I wouldn't said, that would necessarily be an increased risk because we are looking purely at the process, how it goes through to the Finance Committee's Isabella, get the opportunity to scrutinise, and that's why I don't necessarily see that as a key need, because you've got those other remits and formats. The capital programme can often be looked at and dealt with in that particular area, and we have considered what we do in relation to regeneration, but again, because of the scrutiny of the oversight of how things are governed
and they're being an effective board and, and if you take, for example, some of the joint ventures they've got, we've got.
our our our own officers, sitting on their it hasn't necessarily deemed to be a high risk at this present moment in time now clearly if we had a concern that things were going.
awry in relation to that reporting process, then clearly we would be looking at potentially doing something. I mean, you may be aware that the business plan hasn't yet been published and it's significantly delayed for the Winstanley Road regeneration, which I would have thought was a red flag in terms of looking at it. Looking at the this scheme and the risk for certain areas which you don't necessarily see sitting in there, there was the more than some of the consultancy type pieces, so there is, as you may well, be, the dialogue that may be happening with
the external provider or or and the partnership in general, but then you'd have key officers and I am involved in that as part of that sort of process, so it doesn't necessarily sit as an audit, but where you have key challenges and we are dealing with all the external audit provider looking at how we move this.
in pass forward, then I would be brought into that equation, so I'm I met with the director of Housing and the director of finance, we sit there and we are representing separately from that of the the board who were there was even though the Council reps on the board independently is for reps of representatives of the Authority you've got that Chinese wall arrangement.
and so it's not necessarily an audit, and that's why you have the contingency days as well to allow us to cover those sort of periods, but for that particular item I can give some assurance that I am involved in that sort of process, which wouldn't necessarily be reported through an audit because it's more advisory rather than an audit plan.
thank you very much, so I can confirm for the purposes of this committee that that's an area that you are looking at a particular subject and that on one, yes, it's only yet.
Councillor C Whitehead,
thank you.
first of all, a bit about the overall process, just to make it clear with the audits when they're done, where are they reported back to do they actually go back to the committees as well, if there is?
well, for whatever reasons the report committee, as well as to us and the other one, was a specific about you're going to look at the scheme of delegations in relation to the new director director of change.
that he talks about internal controls from creation of new posts and departments, but will that take in a wider review of the scheme of delegation? OK, so I'll say if the first question first is reports then go through to the individuals service committees. What you get is the summary of any key issues get reported back to this committee. This Committees is responsible for looking at the key finding the control environment. Now, if there was a no assurance type order, then I would have hoped that the belief lead member would be aware of those sort of key issues, especially because the service director is notified and gets access to to all of that sort of key information when they are that high level on assurances,
on the separate issue, I there were no plans to look at the wider scheme of delegations again because we annually reviewed the the as part of the annual governance statement, the whole process for how we operate and how you those set-ups are done, but there is an increased risk this time and we talked about change and and Councillor Kelly highlighted it with a new chief exec and a new administration, and I highlight I also raised that even though it has actually been to this Committee that a similar sort of issues of where you get those things you need to have particular oversight.
because of the fact that you've got a whole new or Director had been set up, you want to to look at it and see making sure that everything is covered off, but of one thing I should note and say is that most of the stuff that's gonna go into the new director is in existence already it's just moving things around but what we want to make sure is in that transition nothing is lost.
and that's why all you're seeing here is a is a headline scope, but the detail of exactly bodies, including bodies, and will be dealt with at the time of the audit when you engaging with the auditees to understand what the key issues are at that moment in time.
right, thank you, but what you said was you've said, I would hope that the Lead Member is informed was what you said.
that sounds slightly worrying, I mean.
because the late meant, obviously the Lead Cabinet Member would need to be informed, I just was trying to work out what the process, if there is, or what, if there is a way at that processes happens, and the committee members know that it has happened, and if the answer is there isn't one, then that's fine, it's just I mean I do wonder then whether the Chair of Audit will know if there's an immediate problem and that that person the the Chair can then make sure that cabinet members are also aware.
because we meet to frequently here and there you know, and if there was something that was significant, then there is the sort of process for that to come through an early stage, normally for it to be significant it would be fraud and it'd be something that has gone catastrophically wrong in that scenario, there is why there is processes where we would liaise with the relevant key individuals and similarly, if there was something that was major in in an area which would have
the big challenging issues that would get escalated, but quite often even if it was a no assurance order and I use the school as a good example of a school which is like its own business entity covers a rugby, grade range in areas could end up with no assurance audit that does not have a significant impact for the Council that does not have a significant impact for a lead member, it might be the board of governors in that situation might be wanting to to address and have an immediate need to understand know straightaway, but it isn't going to have a material impact on the business of the Council.
so that's why there's no set rule for what happens on any, but if you've got, you know this assurance or that assurance, it has to be based upon the individual circumstance that's in question, occasions like when we've had a, and they all say morph most frequently would be in relation to,
big major project schemes there was Wandsworth Bridge, she knows come here, Lead Members in those situations were notified and issues was going on at the particular time when there were key issues in fraud or concerns in the control environment by there had been in facilities and management in the past again key members were made involved in that but I wouldn't want a by routine.
you know a limited or no assurance audit going to members because you'd get inundated with them and it would lose its impact when you do get notified.
Councillor Canning.
I thank you for reminding me about facilities management on page 64, I mean, I think it was the last audit meeting we have since his management here and we are talking about continuing concerns with some of the issues there there's no audit in 24 25 that's projected, I wondered whether that was an oversight and whether we are gonna be looking at facilities management on a continuing basis because it's been sort of very recalcitrant in terms of
making successful changes seemingly to avoid, or the then no assurance audit.
I know that there's there are several areas where there is still continue work going on, I mean there are regular meetings and there are updates that go through other elements of the work they were doing, for example in relation to fire risk assessments and things that are carried out, so there is additional work from that I mean a health and safety sits with me as well, so I can say that again there are other controls where updates on outstanding actions are being reviewed and there is as part of the Health and Safety
reports that go through to Directors Board. They look at those sort of items that gets flushed out there, so that's what I'm saying is when we look at the wider scheme around, what assurances can we get from Audit when you're looking at who else is doing what you can say reference from there, I don't know, I think if there were, there is a follow up, Andrew, I think that we will get the information on the outstanding actions that are covered out from day one as well. Yes, that's right, so we're continuing to follow up on outstanding actions where there isn't a specific order in the plan
saw them that basically, there was no action being taken, then clearly we know if we'd be inviting the relevant individual, to come back to this committee, for you to be out or to either Pozo solve issues to them and everything else, so that's how we can build up that sort of other levels and Alex said, because we've got that contingency time still built within, if, ultimately, something cropped up. We could do further work if need be, based on what does or doesn't happen with that follow up review
thank you.
OK, I've just got one question, it's just around the audit whereby saying that the specific areas will be decided throughout the the year, I'm just wondering what factors are taken into account and
there were unpaid work as part of the the operational plan, so within the operational plan there were certain certain order areas where the escape or a headline hasn't actually been determined.
yes, similarly, though, I was saying earlier, but the actual detailed scope, we would want to wait until the actual time where we could sit down with the service area to get to go into this, you know, we're not we're not looking here today to come back and agree the granular detail, it's some of it is is the the the the more the general area.
of where it is some of the ones we will pick off and pattern repeat from what's been done previously, but I'm sure you wouldn't want us just to narrow that down and to be looking at it on that specific elements, so it would be it's evolve based on the need at the time and engaging with the auditee,
thank you, thank you, I wonder if anybody's got any other questions.
alpha.
now our patients.
OK, thank you, we're asked as a committee to approve the strategy, the plan, and that was last thing.
sorry, the charter.
all agreed agreed, thank you.
OK, we're moving on to Item 5 that's data analytics programme paper 24 110 112 page 67 74 thanks saunas I very little one gonna pass you over to Tanya, who has written the report and can tell you all about the wonderful things and the way that we were evolving in order, I'm gonna be utilising data analytics more effectively.
we could only get around, my name is Tanya college, I am internal audit manager.
the data analytics programme was created, based on the advised that internal audit received from the external reviews review happened last year and one of the recommendations was to continue any spend, date and living skills or within the internal audit team.
the programme is today outlining high level where we are and where we want to go in the next few years, so our vision is to become our interim audit function, Dad put data analytics in integral part of everything that we do, we wish to through the day dinner ladies to continue delivering incredible findings but also provide an invaluable insight to the Council's.
without that, we also wanted to conform with one of the public standards for internal auditors, which are talking about usage of data analytics.
and where we are at the moment is we do use some of the data analytics we currently use idea, and there's all the power, be I we do, the based on the bespoke analytics on a one off basis, and we also use a script and those are for limited type of reviews.
it going forward are what we want to do in the next few years is put in the roadmap which you signed, allows slide after presentation, but if I may summarise, what we want to do is really invest in auditors, knowledge, technology, communication, skills,
and also an
we use data analytics and how to use data analytics and information that we receive in our internal audit annual planning, as part of that we are also start liaising with other data analytics teams that we have in the Council's, some of those are much further than we are and they are also involved in some of the data structuring which is quite important fod,
and I think I will also, if we look at what a change programme would wish to achieve, I believe that, as using more data analytics, as part of our internal audit, do align with that programme.
the dead in.
and that chair of what we are trying to do, but I am happy to answer any other questions you might have.
any questions Councillor Cathy.
thank you very much, so there's a really interesting presentation, a really interesting paper, and I'm delighted that we were focusing on this and using data analytics to progress. I guess a couple of questions one is how much reinvesting in this what's the sort of what's the sort of council investment in this and then how do we compare with other councils and how do we make sure that we're sort of using best practice from other councils and I also wondered, as well as looking at other public sector organisations, is there any linkage with any private sector organisations who may be doing things differently or sort of are, I guess, thinking outside the box rather than just kind of following the the sort of the local government template, is there anything that we're doing that?
yeah, I'm gonna make us a leader in the field, I guess, alright yeah, so I am qualified internally da I trained by PwC, I'm first time in a local government, and I'm using data analytics for the last 20 years, so my experiences outside the local councils and adds hopefully I will bring it to the team we are on the beginning, so we are currently now and looking into the Council of what are best practices what our teams are doing in particular were concerned about where we get data and how we can use it, so if you look at them what is estimated for 2025
one of estimation from PwC, for example, is that we will award wide generate 175.
Ziga bides of data. But really the value of data is not how much data we have, but our ability to accurate extract and net, and then also act on the valuable information that we get 2020. I think the estimation was that worldwide information we analysed only 1.5%, so very small information or very little information was actually data was actually analyze, so we are currently kind of looking into where we are in the Council but also will be reaching out. As I said, I'm happy to go anywhere. We have best practices because that's where we want to let you learn when you already do professional practices
and so I just joined I was last year with Lloyd also but.
at the moment how much we are investing, I don't think we have a number, so I think my team needs first to approve is to improve on.
on data analytics, we need to show what we can do and hopefully then, Andrew we will have a little bit more money to spend it on it for the are really starting.
fairly on the beginning, so we have some of auditors that are doing the Scripps we have submitted are quite comfortable to do one of melodies, and we have some orders that are traditional orders that are therefore, we need to bring them all under the same level and then move on ideally where we want to go is probably a continuous already think if he can get there, that, would it be probably a good place to be anything further of what you can see on PwC level that is really then in line with a constant, so we cannot move on our own. We need to work with the Council
in terms of you know, whereas they do, how good is data to analyze, but also what other the the data analytics teams are doing across concerts?
just to add to that particular point, obviously we talked about earlier on the changes to the specification for the new department as change and innovation. So, following on from what John is saying then clearly we need we know we we will evolve alongside how the corporate approach evolves as well and a new style of auditing will need to come out from there. As you know, all of the services change and evolve so it is is a continual, gradual change. You're not going to see a big bang overnight for our own internal challenges as what Tony's alluded to, but also how we can only go to certain speed because we need the ability of the authority as a whole to to to match.
I just do very quick follow up or I the timeline was really helpful and the kind of the road map I thought was really helpful, it is there a point that we, we will be looking to reach the sort of predictive analytic stage or or are we gonna just sort of be satisfied with the continuous auditing because obviously it would be great and I'm sure that there are huge benefits that could be reaped from developing this area further.
my view on this, but and we can say more is.
there is never stop, it is only what we can do better and more and therefore, even if we do all the actions that we have on a road mob by 2026 by then we will have already other ideas what we want to do, I mean I held today ideas but I don't want to kind of get too early in budd, it's it's much more we can do. This is really baby stuff that we are starting to take. Hopefully we will be successful in Dad, but there is never a stop to this
sorry, Councillor Marshall.
I think this is building on Councillor Cowley's question, but I just wonder if you could help make this a bit more concrete for me and perhaps for the thousands of people watching this.
what are the kinds of projects that you might expect are within our grasp things that will be differently done within the next 12 months, if all goes to plan, and then what are the things that are a little bit more ambitious that perhaps in two to three years or maybe in five years we might?
you mentioned predictive analytics, perhaps you could just put some flesh on that, or what might we be expecting in five years, let's say perhaps you could just give a couple of examples, the nuts and bolts getting into the weeds of this and so we can all understand exactly what we're talking about, I say you know in the first place what we are trying to do is getting more and more individuals doing data analytics on each of the audit
where we can do so, we are currently putting the plan together.
and we put already in you so today, but next step is to for me to decide that Rachel does all we can do the data analytics and then some of the TV, the the the members, with a team that are already now on a script and understand how to do this groups will look at the areas where we can leverage the scripts and do more of those so something that it can run that we can kind of feed the information and the runic on its own.
predictive and then, if I can just say yeah yeah, you're going to need to get more basic than that for me, but I want something that I could actually kick the tyres of a real example of the parent and or an application what was happening before and what's going to happen differently now, please? Our idea is, if we go down to the financial service, as financial transactions will be able to analyze our logic,
larger amounts of information, so if we were, by now doing a sample testing of 25 going forward, what we want to do is analyzing the data for 12 months back.
sorry, that's that's maybe so in the short term, we could sample more financial pieces of information, so I'm just wondering what the kind of impact you might see from that is and then looking further ahead. You know you've mentioned a roadmap and developing and going into more areas again, or I'd like a really concrete example, so I can really picture this of what you'll be doing once we've really developed this capability in as concrete terms as possible. OK, I can give the example from my previous job, which we did
sale, one of the areas that we went in was marketing and we were looking into marketing expenditures and rather than looking into the 25 sample which might reveal something or not, depending how you are sampling, how we sample the data for full year, so with 12 months and truth and are analyzing that we come across exceptions which were then discussed with senior management and we found out interesting,
gaps in controls, which we usually would not, and if I may say one of those was that we are we actually, through the analyzing, a broader sample, realise that sign off on the budget, was a wee control and didn't work, so the expenditure were larger and unauthorised as we might not be looking into debt or not seeing who we only are testing a smaller sample.
and that's something that's something that's not possible for us now it might be time for with a date and a latest, so we can go deeper and we'll have better understanding.
so why Cabinet gave an example of one of our contractors does so using data analytics, which is like an an audit tool. If you talk about Capita and you look around our payments processes, you've got duplicate payments, that's the type of data analytics scripts that can be run and used in doing it. So whether we get to that stage, how long we can get to that stage to having the knowledge to be able to write scripts they'll able to do that, I don't know that's one of the things that someone is saying. We need to build on, learn and evolve, but if you're asking for giving you a specific of how data analytics is used to give you assurance, duplicate payments is one where they use scripts similar to this type of thing to match out or instituted payment flagging
and that's it, so it's almost like a 100% sampling as opposed to yeah yeah yeah yeah.
yeah, I'm I'm absolutely with Councillor Marshall about something being reasonable, so what you say now is you go along and you just say right, I want.
I want transactions from whatever date each year you're going to look at, say, 25 transactions or 50 transactions on something, if you've got the data analytics effectively, you write a small type of computer programme that says right, I want everything that was over 10,000 pounds I want everything that was signed off by Mrs. Mary
yeah, so you can go and do do something like that you can, so I'd.
want everything that happened on Friday afternoon because that's when everybody yes, if they can do that sort of thing, whereas at the moment you, even if you wouldn't be able to get the everything that was signed up on a Friday afternoon because you, yeah you just wouldn't we can go yeah we can go Morgan of Evans and provide a bedroom as well as assurance.
one example I was using data analytics with one of the insurance company that I used to work on and we have by using the analytics, I was able to see three exceptions, the exceptions to exceptions was underpayment, one was overpayment, but we are talking about 3 4 pounds.
and I wouldn't be able to do that with if I would take it, it's for a sample of 25 when I went back to the team whose to dealing with the reassurance fees. Therefore, on reassurance fees and I pointed out there were first very impressed that we actually found they openness, that they spoken more openly and and a more of frankly with me, and they explain why it happened. It was immaterial and they explain me what happened so I was able to go to verify that the control is actually working and why it happened.
but also we had a much better relationship going forward and therefore.
our relationship aware is something because if it's something needed to be discussed was more frank because they were able to understand it, we are able to go very much in the darkness and see and pick up the Trossachs that they taught in the poorest spaces we will not and they were on material there were three for pounds I wouldn't be able to do that probably I wouldn't have got that in 25 September or in 10 sample that was able because I was testing to the full population.
Councillor Hedges.
thank you for that, so I think what you are saying, and I understand that I work in financial services and we do the same for insider trading. You take the big data, the actual data, and then you overlay some kind of data science tool like I cannot think tableau or something Deborah yeah, it's actually I used to be so I am required, sir Andrew I've got all the thing I was talking about tablet, because I'm W user what we have at the moment and what we use at the Councillor is Barbie I dare style, because that's what we have at the moment and tablet. Unfortunately, we need to pay the licence for it and, as I said, I'm probably if we approved it, we are a very good data. Analytics ended it, we are all adding w, hopefully we could get a licence for other tools as well. Yeah yeah, I've had experienced a tableau it, it's amazing stuff and I know insurance companies love it, but people are
taken advantage of that system, so what?
presumably now you're just using it spreads Excel spreadsheets and using lacrosse yeah, an idea at the odious in Edinburgh to what I guess for me is in order to use these great tools like tableaux, and they are amazing, they really cut out time as well and they are accurately. I can look at exactly, but we don't have to sample you're looking at everything and you can see pattern and trend, but how do you wow, what controls have you got in place to make sure that the raw data is correct, because if that's not accurate, then that just will ruin everything else that you're trying to do so there will be several ways how we all saw
a source of data, and I already spoke with IT team. What we can do, so the for power, be I users. What do they get, do the getaway so we can go direct to the some of the the case is not all because we have, I think, 63 applications that we are currently looking into on solid data right away directly. So if we analyze and we go back to the auditees and they said no information is not correct because it is not correct on our system, then we need to discuss why that is.
that then you know the wider discussion and they need to explain to us why information is incorrect and how come the dead is.
incorrectly are recorded, and also what is then impact on all other reports that they are producing, based on information that they have of their system.
yeah, I hope I answered your question here.
consideration apparently ice, it's not very expensive, but at the moment we have power of the I so in the past I have been with several internal teams, where we kind of started data analytics and we are then to use what we have, we prove our sir a service and then hopefully we get a little bit more money.
also
just to give a little bit.
wow in terms of the
time that we can really efficiently use. So one of my previous, so for marketing, which I mentioned before, so I at that point I actually use them because we didn't get licensed either and I use actually old access database. So I created the the model and I was able to cut my time, probably with roughly eight hours down to two hours, so it was a nicer saving of six hours where I could do other work so other testing other controls and therefore using a more efficiently my internal real-time Councillor Marshall just electric scripts as soon as I think we're currently really a proof of concept stage. This boy got the report where it is now, but obviously, as I mentioned before, this is we work within a partnership, so this five boroughs so clearly as one or as an entity around the framework for which the partnership operates. We have to be considerate and liaise with the others, but going back to the point about reducing number of days, it could be man versus machine
ultimately and in what you might end up having a woman, and I know that nobody did so, but it is just using that the the the the idea that we may end up cutting the number of physical days but actually doing more audit coverage as a result of doing that, and I think it's got to were at the early stages. It's brilliant, having someone who's got experience from outside, who can bring fresh ideas through to the table to us to try to test and analyse it. But that's a stage where we're at such trying to manage expectations that we're at that early stage. We need to to deliver, show it's good value, then obviously we know our I will tendency challenging and do with everything else, but are there now other partners will or are as as well, because ultimately there is unlikely to be additional money being put in because we are not just with ourselves, you've got to say those other outside entities who I unfortunately can't go with the begging bowl diseases I can do to my own,
director in order to ask for more, but where we can do so, this proves its worth, then you can invest in those things and actually turn round and say I'm banging out X Y Z we can deliver much more, and that's hopefully what we're going to get from this I think that's what we're setting the tone.
yeah, I think my customers feed straight into their, because what I've heard here is all about financial transactions, they're correct, it could be any.
so I'm wondering, but what I've heard is financial transactions, so what is that is that the focus is just on financial issues now, but there is an example of which is the easiest to gain, but we can do the annual analytics on anything else. Aides are really coming from the annual plan where we want to do which areas and then I will be think what the system is, where information needs liaising with IT and connecting then part of the I to Dead source of information, but it could be mosaic as well. Mosaic mosaic, useful work with as few of our directorates each year information so probably Andrew, you will probably know more, what the all information on the Zags, but the adults are adult social care, is probably social care. Yeah, adult social care and the prologue yeah yeah, this is of operational data yeah and round, sir social care, colleagues at Executive, the kind of thing I'm thinking about yourself. So that's something that's considered considered part of the aspiration yeah, so we will be looking into audits and see where we can use the data analytics could be an easier face on financial transactions, but could be on anything else,
when you've got voids, you've got a, you know, you've got repairs, you know that lot things in housing you can do. Data for anything with data potentially can be used, but clearly I said we were proof of concept stage, so it's understanding what is you quick win, what's most simple, to be able to demonstrate the the viability of it so that you can go back and expand his yeah yeah scope because if we try and do something that is overly technical first off and I've only got one individual who knows what they're doing, so to be able to they enrol that out, I'm gonna have, we're gonna fall flat on our face, so ultimately we want to show something that is worth the time and the effort because to train people takes time and will take them away from actually delivering the work today. But what we said sorry, but if this works this is going to get me wrong, I've got a number of staff that need to to evolve and grow into it themselves, because they're not ready, this is this is the whole process of our guiding people, educating training, upskilling.
in order to do that, and this is not going to be a six to 12 month exercises, this is going to be a lot longer cycle to get everybody up, to speed, to make sure this works.
sorry, just one question is they read like a.
the working group that's that's part of this, or there's it's on with the project or anything like that na so.
within the internal audit team, what we are doing is introducing to the people who are maybe not used to using so much with fatalities. Now there are a few individuals that are using it to others. We are introducing the towards a day can use it so primarily as power be I they are regularly sending and inviting them to do the trainings and from next month's when we have a plan in place and when we know where it would audits, we have they. We will do more of the training with them to make sure that they understand what is expected for them, what they need to learn, but it's not something that is a project, it's really we are asking to team to be upskill on the internal ethics
Councillor hedges this year.
yeah upskilling, that's it's quite it's quite a.
getting somebody trained up in how to analyse data, and also I presume you're gonna teach them or somebody's gonna be taught how to do some coding, I don't know if that's Python or something yeah, I know that's not that's like learning another language like I will, I'm struggling to learn out code so I'm keen to sort of understand what would you be thinking about?
hiring some new individuals or.
at the moment, and at the moment, I don't think it, our yeah, go ahead.
because clearly, as you quite rightly say at the moment, we've got let we put capabilities and skill sets, we've got grades of jobs and profiles that address during audits in particular way, if you're moving into a much more IT orientated individual who can write code and everything else I'm not going to be paying the salaries I'm paying now.
we talked about different types of audits and you look around how we go out in the past and that charter about where we used Mozes and PwC who come in and do certain framework typo rates. They've also got others who would do a much higher level of type of audit when they are needed and do, but the price we pay for that audit is substantially higher than what you would in that. Now, if I'm getting in a much more higher graded individuals because they're able to write code and everything else, they're prepared grades will go up, and that's that's why this is not going to happen in six months. This is to get to that sort of stage where they're all up. Doing that will linger, we'll need to engage with the partners. Look at now, I'll hold processes for auditing and that will evolve, and but the fact that we're actually looking at that hope you know and that insight into to the changes that we've got by having somebody who's got some experience from external.
I'll cry, and private sector auditing background is enabling us now to capitalise on that and do the review now, the outcome of that hope we might bring back later on as we're doing all of these will see their successes and we go to that partnership board because we need to talk to those wider partners as well about this because we can't have one set of processes for original Wandsworth.
and another for Sutton, Kingston Merton, the only way the Partnership works as if we can bring everyone along.
quite I'm quite conscious, if we've spoken quite a bit on this subject should want the if Ilva, if he wanted to add anything.
now this was really helpful, thank you.
so just if Members are were recommended to know 0 and the Murray, thank you Ann last questions lot did we discuss learning from other borough, obviously we've got the five boroughs but learning from other audit partnerships and working with them about what they've done already on this and what we could learn from them.
I mean, there is the London Audi Group, for which, and there is that wider circle, Andrew no devil will liaise with with peers and, I think is the use of data analytics is obviously going to become more prevalent. No clearly we will look at others, but I think most are in a similar vein to us where you've got your different levels and types of individuals who are doing things in a particular way, but clearly yes, I mean if, if we know of any we will and you know of Andrew Down whether you want to come in on discussions, you haven't and an older group, and I I will, so what I would say is in terms of other local London borrowers,
we are at about the same place at the moment.
it is something that the autism and heads have already talked about a lot, what they what we've lacked in the past and what they lack is someone like Tanya that that will bring not just the knowledge but the enthusiasm, and that's what you'll have picked up on today, auditors are sort of fairly reluctant to address changing the way that they work and you really need someone that's confident enough to bring the subject alive and that's what Tanya tiles and that for the sake of me that's the the hope is that she will infuse people to start using it, because actually there's some quite simple techniques that can be used, that we don't use at the moment.
and I think once we start seeing some of the team use them, that that will then encourage more people to do it.
but our Tony O'Connor, I think it was suggested that we're talking about budgets fairly, often often I pulls right there, isn't any, there isn't any extra money being being put in this arena at the moment?
but we've done, you know the best thing we've done is we brought someone into the team that has the experience and and the enthusiasm to try and generate some movement.
you do know they are in an imminent, whether it be in this borough or another borough, where we were these tools you use that can identify huge savings, then you've got to invest to save, but we're not there. This is, I'm saying this is an early days, this has gotta go in proof of concept. That's what keep using that term at this present moment in time, come in part show how it works, how it evidence both to act and the other, to the team and to the partners, and that's where we got to go
OK, Members are recommended to note the information and data analytics programme.
OK thanks.
final item Item number 6, the council's use of its statutory surveillance powers under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 paper number 24 that 113 pages 75 to 80 case of I, I'll be brief and an introduction, because there's nothing material change from initiated to previous issues, the annual report that you get on our use of directed surveillance normally in order to to use, but sir for for RIPA, which is the the regulator of investigation, so regulatory powers Act that gives us a shield in order for us to say that we were doing this, then the magistrate will give us that protection to for doing it.
we, but we've made a decision that we won't justify or under that umbrella, because there's quite high bar to get that threshold. The you need to be investigating or or a crime that potentially could lead to a six-month custodial sentence, but the the committee has said that actually, for things like blue badge fraud which doesn't necessarily hit that trigger bar, we still would want to do that type of preventative work and some and reactionary work. So this term this report tells you all of the cases, what we've done, both with a shield which I think in the in the appendix was only one and used last year, but there were 18 other cases which we which we still did it, which we replicate and an internal process that has been independently verified by the information surveillance Commissioner, who comes in and looks at how systems hasn't been in this year, so I'm not going to
report on that, but you know that in previous years, when they've come, they've reported glowingly on the processes, so I said no real change would just give me an update on the statistics for the health and they were used last year.
any questions.
no payments are recommended to approve the continued use of RIPA.
I agree to it, but it would be great just.
and thank you, and that's the final part of the meeting, thank you all for attending the meeting is now finished.
thank you.