Licensing Sub-Committee - Monday 12 February 2024, 7:00pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting
Licensing Sub-Committee
Monday, 12th February 2024 at 7:00pm
Speaking:
An agenda has not been published for this meeting.
Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.
good evening, everyone, thank you, and thank you for your patience and I was starting a couple of minutes behind schedule apologies for that.
but welcome to this meeting of the Licensing Sub-Committee which will be held in a hybrid format. This meeting will be considering an application for a new premises licence for Post Market 92, a Balham High Road S-W 12 9 AG, which is in Balham ward, please bear with us if we have any technical issues but we hope not to have
my name is Councillor Morris MacLeod I'm Chair of the Licensing Sub-Committee.
we have an apology from Councillor Birchall who is a part of the sub-committee is not able to be with us tonight, but we're still able to proceed.
because the regulations say that we can carry on as long as we have two members of the sub-committee which we do have to now invite the other Member to introduce herself.
hello, good evening, everyone and Councillor Jeffery.
thank you just a reminder to everybody once you've finished speaking, because we're in a hybrid format if you could switch off your microphones, so there's not any interference and only to speak when invited to by myself, the Chair.
and so.
I've been that bit sorry, excuse me declarations are there any declarations of either pecuniary or other registrable numbers of all interests of any of the matters to be considered at the meeting, and that's a no from me to wonderful OK, so we're now to consider the application for a new premises licence in respect of the premises known as postmark at 92 A Balham High Road S-W 12 9 AG Balham Ward, the Sub-Committee will hear this case, it is as a discussion and a maximum time for each party to speak is 5 minutes. A necessary committee agrees a different period in the circumstances
I will now invite our licensing officer, Caroline Sharkie, to present the reports.
thank you, Chair, and perhaps a slight amendment to your notes, so Caroline can attend today, so I'm I'm second in Caroline's place, apologies that that's quite a gate, I've been called worse before it's is no no insult at all to be compared to Caroline I'm Tony Hawk someone's the lead officers in the Licensing team here to present a report to you.
Chair I'd normally try to keep my comments as brief as possible and to not take up your time going to say a little bit more than I normally would do this application.
as you've already noted, it's an application for a new premises licence for the post market at 92 8 Alum High Road.
as you are aware, the Licensing Act does require you to consider each case on its own merit, and I'm mentioning this, as you will have read in the representations, that there is mention of of another premises licence in place.
and this this is not a typical scenario, as it would normally come before you, so this application is not for a replacement licence as a like-for-like replacement of what is already there, it is a licence that, in part covers the area already licensed and in part covers a new area of the premises that doesn't have a licence.
the current licence that's in place is held by a different person that's not subject to the application today.
at any decision you make to date whether you grant this application or refuse this application, it will have no effects on the current licence.
and I think to describe the area and what's what's currently licensed and what is proposed to be licensed?
be helpful just to explain it into three distinct areas of the overall property.
that is the outside area, the ground-floor area and the first floor area, so I wouldn't normally go into details of what other licences involved in other applications, but it would probably help address some of your questions I do do for this case to the current licence, as I mentioned, is held by a different operator and that covers the outside area and the ground floor area. The application that has come before you is to cover the outside area, which is the point of overlap and the first floor area, it does not include the remaining ground-floor area already licensed.
and then in terms of the current licence, I just note a couple of things in brief, just to the committee's aware, the current licence was reviewed by the Committee in May 2022 and that licence has been recently transferred to a new operator and that was transferred last month I do do note from the representations that there is the loss of mention of
possibly the current licence, we are aware of ongoing complaints about the current operation and we have been liaising with both the former operator of it and the new operators that took over last month.
but, as I said, this is a completely new application which in part covers some of those areas, but it is also for a new area as well.
so, to summarise the application that you have.
it's fair to lie two types of licensable activity for alcohol sales and late night refreshment and the outcome sales proposed, it stated in your report as 11 am to 11 pm Sunday route, Thursday and 11 am to midnight, Friday and Saturday at the times for late night refreshment and therefore only on Friday and Saturday before 11 pm.
it premises doesn't need late night refreshment.
and then the opening hour, so for another 30 minutes on top of the alcohol times.
at the conditions that have been proposed can be seen in your agenda from page 8 onwards, and this is a combination of conditions that have been proposed from the applicant and note agreed during the consultation process were including with the police and the trading standards so there have been some amendments made to the application since it was first submitted and I would note that some of these conditions are perhaps more comprehensive than the existing licence that will be covering that outside area.
and also or for your notes, really and for the record of the hearing or just mentioned that condition 9 on page 11 of your agenda does have a number in error that condition is to do with underage sales, that is a 7 part condition is not a note part condition, I just wanted to reassure you there is not an agreed condition, it's been missed off the papers, it's just a formatting error.
then, turning to the proposed plan probably be helpful, if I just talk you through this a little bit, there's two plans that have been submitted to you, those can be seen on page 47 and 48, page 47 is the outdoor area, page 48 is for the first floor area and if I if you have the plan in front of you,
the
I say that I don't have the plan in front of me that would meet just a moment, so on page 47 you have the ground-floor area.
in the top left-hand corner.
there's a doorway shown with the line.
that doorway is what then leads to the staircase.
up to the first floor area and a first floor shown on page 48.
if you can just take a step back on the agenda to page 46, and I do apologise jumping around the pages and but just wanted to cater for any questions that may come up, 146 is the o is a map of the area, the footprint of the building has been shaded green and then the outside areas that we're talking about is that courtyard in front of the green shaded building and the road
as so all of that, that is what's being proposed.
lastly, I just turn to the representations that there are 8 representations that have been made, I believe we have a couple of people here today or the representations that there are, of course, other written representations that you will need to take into account at those are shown on page 37 through to 45 and I believe that the applicant has sought to address some of the concerns of the
of the people who have made representations at that, no party has withdrawn their representation, all the representations in the Committee agenda still stand.
thank you Chair, and if you have any questions, I'm happy to answer them.
thank you very much, the Hulk, Mr L.
Councillor Jaffray, do you have any questions at the moment of the officer, no questions, thank you.
thank you I I do, just just for clarity, I guess.
or because the to make sure that I'm thinking of things in the right way.
so what we had was there was a licence there that existed previously and still exists, but that's now been split, but this is a new licence, so some of the area that was licensed is it will now come under this new licence, but this new applicant has no connection to the former applicant or is an offshoot of the I'm just want to make sure I understand.
some of that is probably a question established to the applicant.
I don't I don't believe that it is one in the same entity apply and I believe that it has two distinct operations applying in terms of their current licence that does cover the outdoor area that will remain unchanged even if you grant a second licence to cover the outdoor area that is where it does become a little tricky so there's a current licence does have different times let the times go to.
2, am on Friday and Saturday with a current licence, the proposal before you is reduced times, I believes that there may be discussions underway between the two different operators where the applicant, the application you're considering, is looking to operate, that whole outdoor area and in effect take itself the current premises.
and that any decision that you might you can't make changes to that existing licence, it will remain in place, it may be that when the applicant address issues, they will want to make an undertaking as to what they intend to do in the future, but that existing licence will remain unchanged.
thank you, that's helpful was I right in saying a question pop up there from someone else and.
OK, thank you.
okay, brilliant, thank you for that.
so I now then invites
a representative from the from the applicant for post market to address the Committee.
Michael Morgan and you are the applicant and your appearing here in person what I'll ask.
obviously, if the UK were aware of of some of the objections and you've heard some of the the the concerns and in so you have five minutes, we don't have to take them all if you can just explain why this licence is needed and if you can address some of the concerns that would be helpful.
hello.
everybody thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak on my behalf.
it appears from looking at the objections, it appears that this is a situation from either the predecessors or the current guys who are in place now.
the problem and from what I can see.
all objections are focused on the back of the building and the middle event space.
my licence and my remit is a front of the space, I have nothing to do off the back, I have nothing to do with the middle of the space, there's no complaints about that, I did in fact address a couple of complaints a couple of points sorry to do off the front in regards to the locking up and clearing away of furniture.
at night on the weekends, so that people who are passing by from the Devon Cheryl, perhaps next door at Cheltenham, Badham social club can't get into our premises and use those seats or that furniture to create.
further noise, so after speaking or liaising with Russ from the Licensing Team, we came up with a solution whereby if there are events, we will put all of our stuff away and look at away, it still has not stopped people jumping over and him using whatever makeshift crates or whatever they can to sit in the area even though the gates are locked.
I'd like to pretty much focus on two elements for clarity.
is the ratio of food to alcohol at my location?
my location and my remit, we have 16 food vendors and only two bars.
so the problem for me I don't think the issue is the alcohol, I think the issue is the
the way in which the other areas are supervised, they let the errors out to outside promoters.
so what happens is a promoter will come in, he has no care for Balham, he has no commitment to balance, he does what he's got to do, he makes the money that he's going to meet, then he leaves Balham and he leaves the mess for me to clear up insane, so there's guys who are running the other spaces they have the same sort of outlook except that they're accepting monies or whatever they're doing, whatever payment or financial gain they're getting and in Arthur
the
the kind of promotion is over, then they pretty much go home and leave me in the morning to clear up the mess, sweep up and reset the areas and perhaps take some sort of.
front row leader role to the residents who are coming now to face me and speak to me about noise, which I haven't made.
the other.
point I'd like to focus on, is the location is between Balham and Club himself, it's slap bang in the middle, there's an overspill from Balham.
I, the High Road the busy part and as an overspill from Clapp himself and it kind of meets in the middle where we are, there is bound to be change, changes come in and it's not.
it's not because of alcohol is not because of even a noise on my part, it's just that change is coming because ballroom is growing, more people are coming and the demographic is changing, so we were historically known as a quieter part of Balham. However, it's now become a lot more lively there lot more younger people are coming into that space and change is inevitable, so we are not trying to
I personally am not trying to be unsympathetic to the neighbours and I know that change can be difficult and.
our licence for just the upstairs part of the building, we've still no reason I have I'm here today.
is going to be pretty well managed, to be quite honest, I have gone over and above what has been asked for me, the police have asked me to to get my staff to read or to view certain.
films or literature, I have gone over and above and got my staff certificated in all of the police issues that they raised says at that wave and as a challenge 25, which sort of in covers the the the issue that the environment will have had with the youth. I'm not here to say those guys are doing a good job or a bad job or the residents are sensitive, I'm fat sympathise with these guys, the residents, if I'm honest, and I do speak to these guys, I've taken an active role now in staying behind when they're having these events in order
to
give the residents some sort of ease, so since I've stepped in since January, there has been no further noise.
complaints there has been no further issue.
for thank you, sorry to take out your show and I'm not.
Will more obviously gonna come back to you or or repeatedly, and I'm sure, but that's that's really helpful and you've addressed.
some of the issues in the in the way that you see fit, Councillor Geoffrey, do you have any questions, yes, I do, I just have a couple of questions, so in terms of when did you take over, did you?
I have always been at but I've been at Balham since the fruit street-food market opened, it was my idea, I've come from America, I dump I had put in America for seven years I had five bakeries and two restaurants and I fended at smuggest beg food market and I want to bring that vibrant element to Balsam however, what I was doing at the front
did not mesh with what the Guide were doing in the middle and it was the owner of the actual lease, so I had no kind of remit there.
can you just give me an idea of what happens in the middle?
what happens is they, they tend to rent the middle space out, so it might be to funerals. It may be for late night parties, it may be, and this was the previous guy before it goes there. Now it was late night parties, it was they were outside promoters, so what would happen is my guys are family orientated, they're coming in with their pushchairs and whatsoever, and then these guys the crossover would really could there come into their late night drinking they're coming outside of the drinks, they're security guards, I'm not doing what they are meant to do, so my what's not happening, it might be nice starting to get eroded, so I'll start to get less and less
families and people coming to stay, and it now became sort of like a takeaway spot rather than somewhere to come and eat and kind of.
nourished the community.
okay, and can I just ask you about that, back area, we've we've got likely or map here, and we've got a shaded area, but it seems that there's a area at the back.
what what is I ha?
you then have a.
what is what is that area that there was nothing to do with me?
it's a beer garden outside which causes a lot of issue for the tenants, because the guys who were running it historically don't close the doors, they don't turn the music down and they don't.
I do not bring the patrons in at the allotted time of 11 o'clock, so it causes issue with the guys directly behind which is called Penny Mews, and if you look at all the objections or objections, come from Penny Mews.
so as your are you suggesting, then that these objections, and then when we will come to some of the objectors in a minute that the the that what your argument is, we know their objections may well be valid, but they're not actually about the premises that you're talking about there are they're talking about a different space that I think that's mostly you're not actually responsible for? I might be responsible for that's 100% correct, which is why I'm unsure why out here every single objection talks about the back and the middle space. They do touch on the front space to do with the furniture, as I said, but they they really have no kind of a real deep complaint about the front. The front is so far from the back. We cannot really affect those guys, we'd more affect people on the other side of the road and the reason why that's not really an issue is because there's it's a very busy main road. So whatever we're gonna do is gonna get quelled by the passing traffic,
okay, and so I am I'm always keen, and you've you've spoken a little bit about this, about how you.
reached out to people to have issues, I'll I like the fact that the the you know you've spoken to the police and you've put their issues to bed you spoken with Environmental Health and you've put their wishes to bed, you know,
had what efforts have you made to speak to residents and put their minds, or have you not been able to do that, as it can be quite difficult to understand skin?
I've sent back responses to each objector and I also sent them coloured brochures of exactly what we're gonna be doing there and a roadmap that the part of the building that was disused that I'm bringing back into use is going to be a media house, it's going to be for the media.
lies in the area Soho House have opened in Balham due to the per ratio per capita.
execs BBC guys, editors whatsoever that are in the area, so it's quite high end and I want it to offer a space that is accessible to everybody, but for the same purpose of media. So I have a podcast usual editing studio and a photography studio. We have a dining room and we have a lounge restaurant with bar for those guys to meet after they've done, whatever they're doing in a less formal environment, we are accessible to children, we have schemes for local schools and we have schemes for children who are kind of are having difficult times so they can come along into studio and present and pretend to be present us. We send them away with hard, not hard copy, but digital copies of their time and their experience there in the hopes of getting them some sort of interest in social media or something of that nature.
thank you that that's really helpful.
the way you, I am sure, will have more questions for you, but what I wanted to now's, I don't know if anything you have any questions Councillor.
and I'm just gonna confirm, because I can see a hand is raised by Ms had a strong objector you will have a chance to address the Committee, this is a chance at the moment for Members to ask questions, but you will have an opportunity to address.
that's fine, thank you, sorry, no, no, that's fine, yes, I'll I'll I'll you definitely have time to to challenge anything that you've had OK, I think.
yes, OK, so now I now invite those making representations, I believe I have appearing remotely miserliness, strong, and Ms Sally Walker is that right.
staffing escapes me, Sally will work up apologies, okay, if I can go to Ms Alice strong first.
yes, thank you, and thank you all for your time here, thank you.
I was just going to sorry, I'm just going to explains that s yeah, if you could, I mean I imagine this is what you're about to do, but if you just explain why you object to this licence.
yes, so I in fact don't live on penny mews, my objection didn't reference penny Muse at all, it's regarding the front section between the the front of the premises and the main road was my my main concern.
and I do. I appreciate your kind of I saw your e-mail, I just haven't had chance to respond to you yet my main concern is regarding. Obviously, we we like the fact that it's sort of a and not like a nice place for people to go and eat and drink have a nice time in the summer, but our main concern, and I know one of my neighbours, has also written an objection as well, is the music that is played at the premises which hasn't been mentioned. Sadly, in your response to my objection, it wasn't mentioned my job. I appreciate you mentioned the level of noise from the people who were there, but it is sadly the the music and the DJ's that come and play on that front terrace throughout the summer through Monday to Sunday, and it it keeps us awake at night is my main objection, and it's all written
it is probably more fluent in my written objection piece but yeah, that is my main objection, thank you that that's perfectly flowing before going to the the second objects, I just said it, but it might be useful for me to try to come to the applicant quickly I just want to to ensure that the area that the Minister was talking about is the area that you're responsible.
OK, that's why thank you before before we circled back then I will go to.
as will work a then if you'd like to explain why you are opposed this licence, yes, and thank you, Mr Morgan, for giving your explanation and thank you for writing me, I know I didn't know I could respond so apologies that you made it very clear in that know the areas and that you're responsible for and it really opened my eyes as to how complicated the post market has become by having multiple licences for what looks like one venue, which is difficult.
and I appreciate the trouble you've taken, it sounds like you're very keen to make this work as much as possible, and you're right for Penny Muse, we've endured months and probably over a year with the previous licensee not.
Mr. Gill and Mr. Thompson and I think other now the licences for the rest of this phase.
we've endured months of horrendous noise PH late at night and, as I have put in my objection, the rear area was always a turning circle for vans and never meant to be a social space, but I accept you're not responsible for that that isn't your area and that's not a licence you're making what I would say to the sub-licensing committee is to think about your licences for the post market and unify them in some way or,
I know you're saying that they were renewed, but
it's very complicated and perhaps a little unnecessarily so one of the good things, though that I have found out recently, is the plan that the licensing team have put into place with the licences as they currently stand seems to have quelled most of the noise from the rear we don't have it because now, as I understand it, the outside rear area is only being used for people who want to smoke and no alcohol is allowed to be brought out the back which means that it is no longer social music dance place at the back which is perfect, which means we can go to bed when we want, and I hope it lasts until the summer so that we might be able to open our windows and not have sound encroach upon us but going forward.
because this licensed situation is such a fluid one and not obvious to the outsider, it's very hard to know who to go to, but luckily I was speaking to the licensing team and they have been helping me out to work out who is who whatever happens in the future and if Mr Morgan, you do become the licensee for the whole property, I would ask that the stipulations that have been put into place by the licensing team about keeping that back area as it is now are maintained, because it is not a soundproof area is not an interior space, so the noise travels all around the Mews, so that's basically what I wanted to say, but I accept Mr. Morgan that you are not responsible for that area at the moment.
sir, thank you very much, that's that that's really helpful.
Councillor Jaffray, do you have any questions for the?
now I don't have any questions, thank you I I do just put before I before I go back to say to the applicant, and this I guess is for I of review and bearing in mind I I totally accept that it's the fact that it is difficult and it's relatively complicated we we often are faced with challenges from this area because you know there are a number of different licence holders but when you're talking about separate entities it can get complicated.
but bear in bearing that in mind and listening to some of the the arguments that that the applicants made, how do you feel and that I'm not suggesting, therefore you withdraw your or your objection, but are any of your fears, assuaged, or how are you feeling now before I go back to the applicant and and put some of those things to talk to him?
sorry, and that's that's so I've review, if you have, if you have an opinion, I am happy to go first, I mean, as I said earlier, I had the applicant's kind of sort of reference to families and things to something I think that's really positive.
and with regards to the kind of media space and things up, I obviously have no objections to that it is, it is just the noise, it's sad obviously my perhaps my sort of objection was missed or it is just the noise that I is still a big concern for me, we just spend lots of money trying to reinforce our windows but even with the windows closed and the television on we're still if there's sort of music playing
and often they have DJ's in through the summer we can still hear that level of noise, so if that could be something that could be added to the licence, perhaps that there won't be any DJ's or kind of music played, then obviously I'm more than happy for people to sit and have a nice time there I don't have any objection to that but that's helpful for thank you.
OK, let's see how they think, in particular to say this will work, I'll go back to the applicant now.
I think it's OK, OK, so yes, wow wow, what's your response to those concerns?
I really apologise really for the noise issue. We did have some guys there that were playing music pretty loudly, but it wasn't so much. That is playing it loudly. They sometimes left the music plane the entire night because they would forget to turn it off and it some the the it's by Bluetooth, so it kind of connects to whoever's phoned is closest. So what was happening is that it was playing all through the night, so in order to leave it that the music is no longer left in charge of those guys, the music is now in the office and is turned off at night by us in the office. So it's no longer left up to the bar guys to turn off the music or to even play the music anymore.
as part of the licensing conditions that rust Russell suggested from the licensing team that we take that part of the operation in house.
and since that time I don't think there's been any issue with noise in regards to DJ's or DJ's will not be able to bring in their own equipment.
like they were before, we've now got smaller speakers that are now facing inside and all DJ's finish at 9.00.
OK, but I and and to Ms Strong's.
concerns about the outside space becoming, I mean, that's not yeah, sorry well now outside space, I'll be really transparent with you guys, I'm trying to take the entire space. I think it would be best for everybody if I did, and I am in talks now with the new guys Gilwern Mark to take the licenses take the entire space because there has still been noise complaints, there's still been issues and I mean, we're gonna start legal proceedings against those guys myself, which is why I've been there since January and that's why there has been no no noise complaints since January, so I am in talks to take the entire space. To be quite honest when I do take that space
I will be an open door, it will be very well managed as it has been since January and I
would like to make the space a more event and experienced driven space. It will never be given to an outside promoter. It will be again in line with my ethos and business model of a family friendly environment. Were I'm trying to look at putting in dot boards shuffleboard tables, arcade machines and football tables and so that it can encourage families to come along during the day and young professionals in the evening I no longer want to open until 2 am and getting quite old and want to be my bed by that time. To be quite honest, so I hope I can alleviate some of your concerns going forward
but can I yes, certainly if there's anything like that, yes, I get.
there's more work go ahead, yeah just to say, in reference to my earlier point about if you die, I you are successful again, the whole licence.
Will you be able to promised that the outside space at the back will not be used for entertainment until late at night?
it will be used in line with every other business in Balham, such as the Devonshire, such as those of locations, however.
it won't be going until 11 o'clock at night and 12 o'clock at night, it will not, but with before we go, because we add that, but I I get that this is.
and this is the conversation I think you you should have this isn't, but this isn't the licence that we're talking about now is I just I just want to be. I just want to be clear that no, it isn't, but as it as he mentioned in his response to me that he intends to take over the whole space. I think it's brought it into the discussion point and that's why I asked specifically about it absolutely no problem if you bring it up, I just want to remind the committee. I do think this is a conversation that that nice guy don't want to prejudge. First of all this, this licence application, but certainly not any future application, but I I personally, I'm happy to hear that this this conversation happened in that that's that's how I'd prefer things to happen. Sorry, if you had anything else, I didn't mean to interrupt you. It's all work
that's fine.
got a bit lost now, OK, so.
I think unless there is any other questions I'm looking at Mr Wall, sometimes he has nuggets to impart note were good.
thank you, thank you in that case, then, I think that mass that now concludes this part of the meeting.
I thank everybody for their time and in particular the residents, you know, it's not, it's not your job, you're just.
I I always think if people speak up, they may well be speaking for other people in the area, so that's very much appreciated.
so the decision, the reasons and any legal advice given during the supplementary decision that has informed the decision will be confirmed in writing, together with any information about any rights of appeal within five working days.
I thank you for your time and I now close this part of the meeting.
thank you.