Licensing Sub-Committee - Wednesday 17 January 2024, 7:00pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

Licensing Sub-Committee
Wednesday, 17th January 2024 at 7:00pm 

Agenda

Slides

Transcript

Map

Resources

Forums

Speakers

Votes

 
Share this agenda point

hello, could it?
louder than I thought, good evening, everybody and welcome to this meeting of the Licensing Sub-Committee, which will be held in the hybrid format, this hearing will be considered in a new premises licence for hospice, food and wine, which is 9 to 11 Balham High Road S-W 12 9 A J.
which is in Balham ward, my name is Councillor Morrison, Macleod and I'm Chair of this Licensing Sub-Committee
I now invite the other members of the Subcommittee to introduce themselves to you.
good evening man, it is Councillor Claire Fraser, Councillor in South Balham.
Good evening, Councillor Justin from Nine Elms.
thank you both.
all those present are reminded to set your microphones to mute when you're not speaking, obviously then in a moment you speak in and remember to turn them off when you finish speaking so that someone else can be heard and state your name each time you start speaking but you're only supposed to speak when when asked to by the Chair so we won't have sort of.
no cross conversations, it all comes through the Chair.
I have no apologies for today.
I believe
wonderful OK, so just not declarations, then are there any declarations of either a pecuniary or rather registrable or non registrable interest in any of the matters to be considered at this meeting?
I know just as Councillor Justin, thank you, thank you very much, so we now we now consider we now consider the application for a new premises licence in respect of costless food and wine, the subcommittee will hear the case as a discussion and a maximum time for each party to speak is 5 minutes the Sub-Committee will not normally allow cross-examination.
I now invite the Licensing Manager to present her report, the Licensing Manager Karen Caroline Sharkie will be attending remotely.
good evening Chair and the night we read the paperwork, so I'm just going to give you a summary of the application that you've got before you.
this is a
it premises licence forecasts they afford in Y and the applicant is John Hussain. The the premises is not a new business. These premises have held a premises licence since 2011 but the licensed lapse in 2021 when, but then we didn't receive a transfer application within 28 days as required by law, so they, the applicant, has applied for a new licence and this licence is just for the sale of alcohol for consumption off the premises between the hours of 7 am until midnight Sandy through to Thursday and 7 am until 2 am the following morning, Fridays and Saturdays, and the opening times MOOC the hours applied for this application show was advertised as required under the Licensing Act, and this resulted in representations from Metropolitan police or raised concerns that granting the licence in any idiots format would have or undermine the prevention of crime and disorder as a licensing objective. The police requested extra conditions to be imposed if this licence were to be granted and the conditions were in relation to security incident log no saying goodbye, as Lagos outsiders about 6% abv, no spirit shall be sold in bottles or less than two,
Ms sent sent letters following the police concerns the applicant agreed the extra condition and subsequently the police withdrew their representation trading standards also made representations in relation to the prevention of children from harm they asked for extra conditions in relation to notices displayed at the premises the restriction on sales of alcohol to children, a record of a refusal book to be kept visual reminders regarding sales to minors and also staff training following this representation Chair.
the applicant agreed and trading standards subsequently re drew their representation, we also received a representation from another person who lives in the vicinity of the premises and they raised concerns in relation to the prevention of public nuisance and the prevention of crime and disorder being undermined if these licence were to be granted, the concerns raised by local residents were in relation to customers attending the shop during late hours causing noise nuisance to neighbourhood,
a car stopping at the bike lit to to shop at the premises people shouting drinking outside the shop and one, and that is the representations that's relevant because that representation chair has not been withdrawn, copies of all the representations were forwarded to the applicant and were available to the Sub-Committee tonight. The applicant also volunteered extra measures in the operating schedule of the application to promote the licensing objectives. These measures to Chair are produced as Appendix A to the report and they are on pages 5 to 7 of the agenda.
the Licensing Sub-Committee may modify these conditions if they have conceded this, as they consider such steps appropriate after hearing all the evidence tonight, so the options available to the Sub-Committee tonight are either to grant the application, modify the conditions or reject the application, this is the application as I understand it chair I'm happy to answer any points of clarification at this stage or any questions thank you.
thank you very much charms, shocking.
much appreciated, I look at the sub-committee now to see if there's any particular questions.
the officer before we
now I just wanted to clarify something actually before before we go to it, because I think this might might be relevant, can you?
can you confirm in my head that the application that we're looking at now?
is the same or has the same.
characteristics as the license that expired in 2021 is all they are, the is it basically the same licence that that was held then in terms of of what's been allowed to happen when, etc etc
that is correct.
that is helpful, thank you.
Councillor Fraser,
sorry, I just to build on that one actually, and can you just confirm what's happened in that interim period, as it just continued under that that the licence asked, as was until we're at this point today?
yeah, what happened as a result of a compliance, because these usually have been so it was then found out the continued trading they didn't realise, sometimes it's unknowingly, they didn't realise, it was following a death and they didn't realise that in the needed to transfer that licence within 28 days and subsequently August and found that the
the licence holder and then we had to obviously advise them and they had to apply for a new licence they had to stop trading and we often in these situations Councillor, we do try and help businesses either to put in a temporary event notice which is like a temporary period for them to continue trading certain days and then until the application has determined and granted.
hope that instance, your query.
yes, thank you.
thank you.
OK, so so.
I now invite a representative,
for costless food and wine, I'm assailing of the mayor and excuse me if I've pronounced your surname incorrectly.
sorry, I should say when I say it, I invite I invite you, to please explain you've got about five minutes, explain why this application is needed.
and if you want to address any of the issues raised against any of the objections raised, that would be that would be helpful as well, thank you.
my name is Arlene afternoon and representing.
is it?
all I can say from my name is Eileen, Alpheton mower and Mr Hussein is a client of mine, so I'm representing him tonight, thank you, I didn't really give you much direction to that, that's my fault, sorry.
so now I guess I'm asking.
normally there would be maybe someone who is opposing the application in the room, there isn't at the moment, but but we're still going to consider the application based on.
based on the objection objections that we've had, which I will obviously you've seen as well, so what I guess what I'm inviting you to do is one explain why this why this application is something that we should grant, and it's only five minutes, so I'm not expecting.
chapter and verse, but explain why this is something we should grant, and if you're able to address some of the objections that have been made, and that will be helpful, and then we'll come back to you with questions if that is OK.
makes sense
and
so I have gone through the objection that was raised by the individual, I also went through the objections that were initially raised by the police centre trading standards, Mr. Hussain has gone through all these objections, he has agreed to the conditions, in addition to those that already existed in their old form of the premises licence he has not quibbled, he is not corralled, he has accepted them as being.
good practice and trying to comply with the licensing objectives, as far as he is aware, he is an experienced individual, running a premises licence, and so he has knowledge of what to do, what not to do what is expected of him with regards to the licensing objectives also,
I am somewhat puzzled because all the authorities have withdrawn their objections because he has agreed to comply with all the conditions that have been set before him.
the licence remains unchanged, as it were, and the only reason for which a new licences requested is because of the demise of the previous licensed owner, so fundamentally the licence remains the same, but with the addition of new conditions which he has accepted.
I would also like to know what is the objection based on what the current objection, what is it based on, has there been any issues, any problems in the past that has informed the objector that that he needs to or the person needs to raise at this point and needs to be addressed?
has the and I would like to know if the police has had to be called to these premises or any of the other authorities call to the premises, perhaps even in the last couple of years or in the last years of trading, and if any of the authorities had to be called because any of the licensing objectives were being breached, I would like to know, or we would like to know how many times was it necessary for the authorities to be called to the premises because of breaching any of the licensing objectives and also, if so, when was the last time?
and what was the outcome, how was the problem resolved for what reason that they were called, and so these are?
these are issues which is Israel, puzzling that person.
continues to object, even though all the conditions based on, obviously the risk assessment that the authorities have carried out and have come to their conclusion, that if Mr Hussain accepts these conditions, then the risk of all these issues about public public nuisance, prevention of crime and disorder have been satisfied as far as they're aware and as far as they're concerned.
so what is it that the person who is objecting finds in addition to what the risk assessment for the authorities that they used to base that their objection?
I've also advised Mr. Hussain to join the Community Safety Partnership scheme so that he remains compliant, and he remains in conversation with the authorities and with the police, in case any issues should arise during his time in running this premises and so that he can comply and he can ask for advice so he can ask for advice from the authorities if he has a problem with licensing training staff, I am there and this is what I help him to do so I
don't see why he would allow any issues arising income and breaching the licences the objectives to to take to take place, and if he sees something which is not going as it should, then he has the Community Safety Partnership Team has myself whom he can turn to for advice in order to rectify the situation.
and he is aware of the consequences if he should not comply.
thank you very much will obviously, where we will come to you from all before I go to my colleagues and I just want to check some so that the previous licence that's been there, was helpful for some time.
am I am, I jump into the conclusions when I say when I assume that that was Mr Hussain's father.
I don't know.
I wanted to offer condolences that that was all because I can understand that the part of the issue here is that the licensing to have changed sorry that that the shop wasn't aware that it needed to do something at the point of a of someone being deceased and I can imagine it being quite as is not the test I have come across that, I'm sure but I still wanted to offer condolences
circumstances. That's why I was asking, but anyway, OK, so over to my colleagues to see who has question
in that case, I'll follow and safe, if anything get started, so just.
a lot of this is in the application, how long how long was the shop trading before before, before 2021 under the on licence?
police believe his 2011 aside from 2011 to 2021, so for a decade.
that's correct yeah, OK so that sort of shop was trading for a decade under.
under the the the the licence, roughly that you're applying for now under the same, the same sort of licence.
in that time, I'll also check with the licensing officer if we have the sort of information in that time, were there any any complaints about the way that shop was run in or anything along those lines.
another time away.
okay and so.
and in the interim, so from from when the last licence holder was deceased until now.
my understanding is that you will run in on a
the Council allowed allowed the same.
I love that allowed you to carry on running in the same way in that period were there any issues that you're aware of.
and
there I spoke with Mr Hussain, and he said there were no issues that he is aware of that arose during that time, have you had any conversation then, with residents with with any residents?
it did this conflicted, the objection come as a surprise to you, I guess, as it moves towards a surprise to him and I did discuss with him and I asked him whether the resident had actually approached him or approached the shop to discuss any issues that they had with any breaches or any nuisance or crime or disorder any problems were therein and he said no one has approached him and he has no idea who it is.
as one of the things, and this is in your in your contribution just now, one of the things that you question that it's a bit difficult because the objector isn't here in the room, and so we're kind of having to try and or we the committee tap into,
examine this application without them being here, so that's almost that obviously presents a problem, one of the things you are asking was why this was brought forward if there have been no complaints to the police, whereas the objector claims that the police have been called and called multiple times.
they talk about drinking outside the shop, people sitting in the air outside near the Salvation Army, building all this sort of thing, and I'm not saying this is that I'm not presenting this as fact, I'm saying this is what's been.
complained of by the objector is is any of that does any of that ring a bell, or none of that makes sense to you, you're not you're not you're not aware of any of these complaints you've not seen the police round multiple times I have spoken to Mr Hussain and as far as he's concerned, he's not aware of that occurring and also, I believe, is probably not the only shop in the vicinity and if there is a bench, then others can purchase alcohol elsewhere and come and sit on those benches.
thank you, Councillor Fraser.
thank you Chair, actually, I think my point was actually linked to that.
plus, obviously no, I know the art is quite close to where I live, and obviously there are multiple shops that you mentioned in your statement about getting in touch with the the local police, and quite often they're able to put together these fixes, that's something that's already happened and because perhaps they'd be able to join those dots up if because quite often they're aware of where there are those those incidents happening is that something that has already taken place it hasn't taken place.
it hasn't taken places yet, but I have advised Mr. Hussain that I think this is the best course of action also to take, and I do advise all my clients, I do personal licence training, I do applications for premises, licences and I always advise them to join the partnership scheme.
Councillor Justin Justin for clarification, his budget, a family member that passed away in 2021 or ordered the business change hands at that point I didn't have that discussion, I just knew that the person that was there previously had.
died and as if it was changing hands, change of ownership took place, so we can confirm that can we absolutely absolutely?
you know, I mean my condolences now that there is precedent within this borough of a husband and wife publican, whether the husband died and that the the wife carried on for another 20 years unknown to her that the licence was in his name only and not hers and not theirs as a married couple so understand how these things can happen. It's unfortunate, though, that when it happens, you kindly go back to square one and the idea that you've had the licence there with the same terms isn't really taken into account if you think that the conditions might be a bit
onerous, I think they're probably just the conditions of a brand new licence in 2024.
to inch back in 2011, those conditions might not have been imposed, but you go back to square one with a new application, so you mustn't feel too bad about the conditions, it's, I think they're the type of conditions that would get asked of any premises opening until 2 am in a high road situation, but I don't think he feels bad
from experience.
whenever I do a new premises licence, I always do some research on the area, about cumulative impact zone, all this sort of controlled drinking zone, the licensing policy in the area, and I have to explain to clients that he this this other client might be halfway down the road or a mile away, but the conditions in the area where you are might be slightly different and therefore the conditions need to be tailored to where you are situated is not a personal thing, it's something to do with the area in which you are situated and the conditions in that area, so I am used to when I see licences of 20 years old. Only two pages
now we have a book.
yeah
and thank you Councillor, just that's that's that's very true, I mean that our
I don't think it's a bad thing to Minister, but there are a lot of protections, I guess that we have to make sure that residents aren't unduly impacted while at the same time allowing businesses to do what they do and bring bring economic activity into into our borough. So it doesn't surprise me that things are more complicated but but that doesn't mean that where we're going to be dragged draconian or unfailing and as campaigners councillors the Councillor points out we can completely understand you know no,
although I am certainly not placing any guilt on the fact that you didn't realise that the licence needed to be passed over and after a bereavement, that's the sort of thing that I imagine happens all the time so yeah, I think.
do we have any more questions, they for the for the applicants?
and I guess, so I guess one one question I'd have to pass on to them then.
if, if this licence were to be granted.
for an on-the-nose for a shop that's been there for for well over a decade, I would imagine you have good community relations, I assume you'd be open to conversations with anyone that has complaints about what about stuff that's going on in the area, that's that's just being a good neighbour isn't it?
yes, I did ask him to if someone did come to discuss any issues that arises or they think might arise, that he should have a conversation with them to try to allay their fears or to try to see how they can work together so that no issues arise relating to their the complaints wonderful thank you, I'm just checking sometimes I'm just taken if any of the remote officers wanted to say anything if not, I look back at the committee one last time and to see if we've got any more questions, Councillor Fraser, I think not so much a question but just again who had done something Councillor MacLeod said I know that
the local Balham police team are very active, they have a very active Ward Panel as well, that has good attendance, which isn't always reflective of our wards, so and I I know that they meet regularly and quite often have over 20 people or dependants there anecdotally I've heard from from others who attend so I'm sure if that's something that you want to get involved in and that's where those community issues are are shared and kind of and that community engagement happens because there's a vibrant high street there of businesses, then I'm sure that's the Calexico place to to get involved.
thank you, Councillor, Councillor 1, one last look around and then I think that brings us through to the end of this hearing, I thank you now that now concludes this part of the herein the decision reasons, any legal advice given during the Sub-Committee's discussion that has informed their decision will be confirmed in writing together with information about any rights of appeal within 5 working days and thank you for attending.
much appreciated.
OK, thank you, thank you very much, yes, surrogates.
you can go now, I know it's this, that's the end of the.