Finance Committee - Thursday 30 November 2023, 7:30pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

Finance Committee
Thursday, 30th November 2023 at 7:30pm 

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right welcome everybody, my name's Councillor Pritchard, I am the Chair of Finance Committee and we are being broadcast live, I'm now going to ask members of the Committee to introduce themselves, starting with my Deputy Chair on my left, off again if you can go round the table.
say who you are, please Johnny Bell from Battersea Park ward in Battersea.
Jeremy Anne Basham councillor for West Putney ward in family.
Councillor Claire Frazer, South Baron.
Norman Marshall, also South parliament.
Councillor Rex Osborne Tooting Broadway Ward
Councillor Steve World, Shakespeare and Queenstown.
Councillor Lindsay Hedges' Balan ward in Battersea.
Councillor Matt Corner, Nine Elms Ward
Councillor Allied Richards Jones Northcote ward in Battersea,
Councillor Peter Graham wanted to comment on opposition speaker finance, thank you everybody, I'm also get right, we are also.
get all start again. Sorry, yeah and Councillor Jeffreys, incentives apologies. I'd also like to welcome the Cabinet Members, Councillor Ireland, who's here and Councillor Akinola, who'll be joining us in a few minutes, and we also have a number of officers who are here and other visitors and they will introduce themselves when they come and talk to the committee. First of all, I would like to

1 Minutes - 5th October 2023

1 Minutes - 5th October 2023

check first item is the minutes from the 5th of October can I and other any objections to confirming those minutes and can I sign them please?
brilliant.
are you going to my God?
due at the end of the meeting, and the second thing is, has anyone got any declarations of either pecuniary, other register, verbal or non registrable interests affecting them at this committee?
OK, great.
what we're going to I'm going to ask is?
we like to change the order of business, so we consider item for the Council's response to the cost of living crisis next, and that's because Councillor.

2 Declarations of Interests

2 Declarations of Interests

Akinola would like to be here when the Commissioners report is that agreed brilliant, thank you very much, OK said the cost of living report that's paper 23 4 0 7.
if we like to have a small introduction, please on that from sorry, I'm just making a note from Ms Pepper, she's just going to highlight a couple of points for us and then we can take questions yes, thank you Chair them sign Bethany Pepper I'm the council's cost of living programme manager so this paper is an update on the progress of the Council's cost of living programme, including the progress made in using the 10 million pound cost of living crisis reserve to support residents and businesses.
we also have information on the impact of the projects we funded to date.
an update on spend of transfer of the household support fund and some detail on the strategic projects underway to make sure we are building in longer-term resilience as well as immediate crisis support, so I think just two main points to note on the paper there is a section in the paper on the latest insights from our data analytics team on how the crisis is continuing to affect residents.
and whilst noting that there has been a drop in inflation, the data in the appendix Appendix 2 along with the national data shows that that is not yet translated into an easing of the crisis for those affected locally, prices are still rising and we are still seeing more households with complex needs, including mental health needs as the compound impact of the crisis it takes effect.
locally, the latest figures from citizens advice Wandsworth show that meet with unprecedented levels of demand for their services continuing into this winter.
and the level of demand is also shown by the
the spend so far on the Wandsworth discretionary social fund.
at the other point that I would just ask Members to note is that pay paragraphs 46 and 47 of the paper were written prior to the autumn statement.
the autumn statement of last week did not provide us with clarity on whether there will be household support fund from April of next year, so at the moment we have no indication that that will continue, and that means that we are having to look at the options for the support that was previously provided via this fund.
and I am happy to take any questions OK, thank you very much, Ms Pepper OK, can I have questions please?
OK, let's start with Councillor Belton, thank you thanks very much for reading I sometimes we get lost in all the big stuff about council policies, but I'm really heartened to see some of the very small and in excuse me smaller individual things I know some para 19 that 126 households when I say small is a very important to these particular households.

4 Council's Response to the Cost of Living Crisis (Paper No. 23-407)

4 Council's Response to the Cost of Living Crisis (Paper No. 23-407)

but only a ha of well about 126 of cumulatively received well over half a million, nearly two thirds of a million pounds extra as a result of our use of lift data. Now I have no idea what LIFT data is as floors 1 2 3 4 5 6 as far as I'm concerned, can you give me a rough idea what lift data means and why it is, and I would people 100 plus families to gain Latin an amount, an enormous amount of money and is fantastic and I really approval which,
yes, of course, and so left stands for low income families tracker, so it is a product that we have used.
cost of living reserve funding to get in and it brings together data from a whole variety of council sources, so data from housing from all of our kind of benefits, data and also some other benefits data that we have access to from central government from GWP as well.
and what it allows us to do is go down to a really granular household level and identify where there are people who are eligible for support but not currently claiming it, it also allows us to identify earlier where somebody may be moving into to need so allows us to tell, for example, if somebody is accruing debts and we can then work with them and a more preventative basis, so it really is a way of bringing together lots of different data to then target and support residents in the most effective way.
if it is to follow up a slightly different subject, it's the same paper, though.
another way by May who are stricken, I'm not so keen, I mean I blood him very important to the opposition party, so I am asking on their bar, they are really.
I, I see the the 1 million for EU-led scrappage scheme, do we know how much of that has been actually taken up?
Ms Pepper, can I just say something, yes, I have real difficulty hearing the people at the back, so if you could bring your microphone and let me close those yes, Super, that's fine and rather sinking into the chair, I'm afraid so I'll try and sit up
yes, so to date, and the latest figures that we had on the yellow scrappage scheme was that we've had 67 applicants, 37 of those have been successful and a further 30 are under review, and we've not had any unsuccessful applicants out, we're gonna get congratulated by the minority party but as well,
we might wait, okay, Councillor Corner, next, I think.
I didn't know it was, you are right, yeah.
sorry, I must have missed, I don't know how I could have confused your hands.
Councillor Hedges,
thank you Chair, and thank you, Mrs Ms Pepper very helpful indeed, so we are seeing a recovery in the economy and inflation levels have dropped, interest rates are stabilising, however.
food inflation remains quite high.
we've already seen a 5 million initial for initial initial funding from for the cost of living, and also a further 5 million top-up do you envisage any further top ups, given the current climate, thank you.
I think probably more appropriate if I take that thank you, so I mean I think we'll have to wait and see what what this committee recommends to the Executive in future discussions. As Bethany has already said, we can see from the data and from the demand that we're seeing that people are still struggling, you know, as, as has said, inflation is rising at a slower pace, it isn't falling, so the cost of living crisis is still very much being felt in the borough, so you know we've still got, I think, 3 million of the fund yet to allocate whether that will be enough to get us through whenever we think this needs to continue to, we'll have to wait and see but obviously we bring regular updates to this committee so I think that will probably play out in due course.
OK.
Councillor Graham was next, yes, what I, just as a a preliminary point I wish I had raised prior to the meeting the recommendation at bay is to approve the proposed allocation of effectively 1.6 million pounds but obviously that money has already gone through so 83,
am I right in thinking that the recommendations to approve in in B and potentially D need to be changed before I think that's the case, Ms Murray is that yeah so, yeah yeah, I could probably have highlighted that, but yeah, you're right, we've already, we've already made those decisions, so I am happy to amend those before they go to the Executive. When we get to the end before we vote, I hope will have clear wording on what we're actually about, yes, good, so I now have some questions and we can say one at a time I think I was following the Councillor Belsen precedent, maybe for two, but I've got to say one now so
under financial resilience. On page 69 paragraphs 22 23 talk about the client being seen by citizens advice Wandsworth, so obviously we've given them 190,000 pounds to do over the half a million, but they were already getting from us in quarter 2, it says they only saw 105 clients, but the table says that there were 1,558 issues raised. Does this mean that the client which was any rate of just over one a day were bringing 15 issues each
sorry bear with me, I can get the microphone on, we need to double-check that it could be that what they have done is also include some of their core elements in there, but I will double check that with them might I do see the discrepancy there, so we will double check that I'm just relating backwards at 1.05 relates to the number of 1,500, so I'm presuming that the number of clients had seen in the previous quarters was again comparable and proportionate to those those issues, in other words, that they're not seeing many people for the amount of money that we've provided. You know just over one a day doesn't doesn't require 190,000, so are we confident that we're actually getting value out of that funding?
yes, sir, I think in terms of the 105 clients they did find that.
quarter 2, I think, was a quieter period compared to the period before so because it was the sort of summer holidays. We tend to see a drop in demand. However, yes, I mean, I think what we have found in our feedback with citizens advice and we've spent quite a lot of time discussing it with them, is that they are having to give much more complex and in-depth advice than they would have had to give previously. So one of the kind of changes potentially to metrics that we've been discussing with them is whether volume is the right way to judge success so much as
the quality and a number of types of of issues that they're helping people with, they're having to help a lot more people with longer term casework, rather than just the initial one person had any kind of thing that however you see it, so it's that longer term casework I think that we think is adding value.
I mean, I do understand that point, but 190,000 pounds for a considerable number of staff, I think you'd expect to get a number of qualified staff for that money on on a annual basis, so it doesn't I I even with what you'll say it doesn't seem to me to run to the 190,000 at this stage, so I I just want to make sure that we're not over resourcing that of failing to get extra from them in return for the amount of money we've provided.
a deaf point noted where it will pick them up, OK, thank you, thank you, Councillor Anne Bash.
I want to applaud the high priority that this Council administration is giving to the work to mitigate the devastating effects of high inflation.
and the high energy costs the people RHI, right across the community.
I welcome the plans to develop the money hubs as Councillors, we see a lot of money related problems in our surgeries, and I wondered, will the money has to be part of the single conversation and the joined-up services approach that has been advocated by the cost of living commission which we're gonna consider as the next item, and when and where will we be developing our first money hubs if you could tell us, thank you?
yes, thank you, Councillor, so yes, they absolutely are intended to to bring in that holistic joined-up conversation and they also linked, and we're looking at how we can link them to family hubs as well, and that we will have in the borough so just in terms of when we hope to have the first of those in we have some new capacity now into the team there was a little bit of a delay just recruiting new capacity so,
that Project Manager is now in place and she is drawing up a project plan, so I don't have a specific date to give you, but we are in the process of planning that now idea on we're on where a particular high need in my ward in west Putney and Roehampton ward, but you may not have decided exactly where at the moment,
yeah, yes, I absolutely, it will be data-driven, we have quite a lot of data to show us where the real hotspots are in the borough and Roehampton, certainly as a hotspot and lots of metrics
thank you.
I would like a Councillor Warrell next.
thank you, Chair, I've actually got three different questions, some happy to ask one.
literally I was coming then follow up with questions after that one, I suppose the first one is just to congratulate everybody in terms of the responses, but also to say thank you for the report.
starting on page 80s, 85, it's nice to see a report that's actually easy to read, with lots of graphs and and things that are very visual because it can numbers can sometimes disguise what's actually going on that's really accessible, but also accessible for people who are reading the report online and people within the public so.
thank you and congratulations, so that I think that's really important, my first question really is or isn't ask on page 76 so.
in page 75 South, it's paragraph 43 on page 73 76 and paragraph 42 about the discretionary social fund.
I was wondering considering what we're moving into it, we're moving down to winter a week, consideration around what's actually included in the fund. I have a concern that, with a lot of our advice and guidance, has driven online and we do have a constituency that actually Essex excluded because of low income are no income and I'm just wondering how those needs might be met and whether there could be some consideration within this funding to pay for some sort of digital fund, to support people to actually access our services in terms of crisis and the other one is in the Community Care Grants section and we've put it down as provision of white goods and furniture, we're moving into winter. Clothing is a big issue for some people in times of crisis or in one very low income, especially those with children, and I'm just wondering whether this could be expanded to include a clothing grant as as part of the crisis.
allocation as well, so that that's the ask, I'll come back with other questions afterwards if other Members want to speak, but that would be the first one I've put forward.
so thank you, Councillor, so I mean we can certainly review.
the
the criteria for those grants we focus on food and fuel as being common to all, obviously additional funding for food and or fuel should, in theory, free up funding for for the others, so we can keep that under review, I mean, it's it's about targeting it eligibility should be for those on low incomes irrespective of what they need to spend the funding on so.
at the point about digital I mean we can look at, we have got programmes around digital inclusion so we can look at how.
they help people to to access this fund in particular, rather than using this fund to help them to access it if that makes sense.
can I take that as?
one and we'll see what happens, how how are we going for time yeah Councillor Price?
thank you Chair. My question, might I'm not sure he's better as it might be? Councillor Alan might be missed there. It is just him follow up to the point raised by Ms Pepper on para 46 the and just kind of for context about it, having been written before the autumn statement, whether any other measures announced in the autumn statement that kind of impact this in all that we're waiting for decisions on that that might impact any of this work or kind of create any relief towards the cost of living funds pressures they want to
so I can give a couple of very specific announcements that will help low income households, in particular, the first was an uplifting of benefits by inflation, so that obviously will impact on a number of households, and the second one, which is particularly an issue in Wandsworth because of our high property values and a high private sector rents is the decision to rebase Local Housing Allowance rates which effectively that's the the cap on housing benefit that the that we are allowed to pay out.
to those that are in the rented market at the moment that just doesn't cover enough properties, and that's been a low uplifted, so there will be some, I think, some good news coming, whilst we hopefully should see the impact of that, but that neither of those come into into being until next year but should make a difference hopefully OK.
Councillor Osborne
yes, on a quite topical note, there's a piece in the evening Standard today, quite a moving piece, actually about a charity called little village and they are their chief executive, is quoted as saying many parents, we help have been coping with the rising cost of living and struggled to see light at the end of the tunnel, et cetera, they have a number of important hubs across London, including one in Tooting, so it's it's it's a local organisation. Now forgive me if it's if it's in the paper and I've missed it, but I just wonder you've got excellent data sources and excellent sources of information in the community organisations you use
but I wonder if we are in touch with this one specifically little village, to add to our data, either in the past or in the future.
yes, I think we do definitely have connections with them, but I will need to double-check when we last got some type of data through from them, but certainly bringing VCFS data in to supplement our picture is is really core to what we're trying to do brilliant OK, thank you and I have a second question from how Don Councillor Graham and from Councillor Warren what I think I'll do is after those two then we'll.
I think Councillor Alan would like to do a short summary and then we'll move to a vote.
yeah, I am grateful for the keeping business moving, so my question is Councillor Ireland, on the UDA scrappage scheme, following up from her return to an answer to me at last Council she said there have been no cases where a high polluting vehicle has been replaced by another, how does she know that and what prevents it?
I'm sorry but I don't know what you're talking about.
what I'm talking about your answer to me at the last Full Council, where I pointed out that you could have two neighbours who qualified for the 1,000 pounds from the council who could sell their cars to each other for a pound each and then pocket 1,000 pounds from this fund. What would prevent that? Likewise, what would just prevent them selling a vehicle buying a new one cheap because they are cheap, if are non-compliant and again pocketing a thousand pounds from the council? You gave me an assurance that this wasn't going to happen and hadn't happened. Councillor, I'd like to know how I think it, may I I'd just like to make a comment. First of all, this may be because it's a very technical part of the scheme, something that the the team might be able to help with the confirmation, if we can add, and because it was a written answer and I would say I I'm
always quite amazed at the number of ways that maybe something might go wrong, but there you go.
this, but my understanding is that you can only claim once for a particular vehicle, but I'll check that but neighbours would be only claiming once wouldn't be one would sell their car to the other. The claimed 1,000 pounds wants for the one vehicle once the other way and have basically a thousand pounds up and pollution, and not what I would it. It certainly would make them thousand pounds better off, so in that sense it's dealing with the cost of living crisis, but it is not the intention of your scheme and I want to know what prevents it. I think we'd better deal with this outside the meeting, because I don't think I'm understanding what you're saying No, there's Chengdu, sorry I, I have to say I might accept that, but the trouble is that I asked this question and I got a written answer that did not explain itself and it now appears that Councillor Ireland doesn't even know what stands behind her written answer. I don't know if officers can throw any light on it now, but it goes to show that the answer she provided before it was not adequate, so Ms Mary's got, so I don't have the specific answer, but what I do know when this was raised previously was there was an assurance from the team involved that there are eligibility checks and common sense checks applied to the scheme, and I think that is why, Councillor Ireland, if that is the answer she gave he was able to give that reassurance, so we can go away and check the detail of it, but you know that there has to be kind of pre ownership of the
the vehicle. It has to have been taxed, emptied and insured in the name of the of the owner yeah, so there are checks built into that. There are two next door neighbours could have both a net cost of 20 years seldom to try to get 1,000 pounds and nothing prevents that yeah, so I think in that case we would probably spot that two neighbours were doing the same thing at the same time and we will be actively looking out for that. Yes, but they would still be eligible, wouldn't they because that qualifies under the scheme? No, no, no, so it's to the eligibility criteria is set by the Council, and if we do not think that somebody is eligible, we will not pay that back to eligible neighbours who sell their cars to each other and pocket 1,000 pounds from the Council having sold their car to each other for a pound each that is eligible under the scheme under the details of the scheme. The door is wide open to doing that right. That's my point of Graham I'm just going to say. I obviously obviously hope that our residents are very honest and helpful people, and I think we should wait to hear from the people who are running the scheme. What the position is. I said I I'm sorry, Councillor Corner, I did say excuse me, I did say that I worry I can actually clarify. Mr. Evans has helpfully pointed me to the eligibility criteria that says residents who have sold their vehicle to family members or other ones with readers residents will not be eligible for the grant. Thank you and follow up. I had what actually said was one from you and one from Councillor Warrell. I'm sorry, Councillor Corner was a bit slow Councillor, we're a last question, please, and then we'll
thank you very much just.
in response to Councillor Grimms' early points about the CIB as an ex advice worker, I do know that actually people often present with more than one particular presenting issue often come back time and time again that needs to be actually was be resolved. Work in this paper often doesn't show the complexity of work that people actually in CIB and other advice centres actually do. I take on board what he's saying about the money, but I think what we have to recognise that the is that staff in agencies like the CNB are dealing with very, very complex issues, very, very, very difficult situations that require multiple input from a number of different agencies and in coordination. So just to recognise that and congratulate the CSP staff in relation to that, my question, however, is I suppose the cost of living crisis has been going on for a while now and the Council has been doing a lot of good work
are there any key lessons that we, though we can take away from the work that has been done at the moment in terms of working with the voluntary sector and with different agencies that might help them to help us in terms of maybe future commissioning or future work I also take on board you might not be able to,
answer that now and I'm happy for a response later on, to come back in terms of lessons learned from the working that we've doing at this moment in time.
yes, I'm happy to give a short answer and then we may need to to come back with more detail. Certainly I think we've got some lessons learned from the grants process last year in terms of the proportionality. That of what we ask for for monitoring, but also being very clear from the outset about what we're asking for so that it doesn't come in as a kind of last minute ask to to the VCFS. I think there will probably also be a lot. There's a lot of learning that we've taken. That is also common to the CCS needs assessment, which is also on the agenda today.
so a lot of things around that kind of access to volunteers, community development, all of those things in that paper have come across strongly through the cost of living work as well, so I think that will bring that out, thank you very much and Councillor Golton did you want to say anything before we sort out the voting?
yeah, thank you very much Chair.
I just want to say thank you very much for your hard work, we are really proud of that to have a 10 million pound cost of living fund, it's the largest in London might even be in the UK, I'm not sure about that.
you've entered here from the cost of living Commissioners in a few minutes about all the good work that's being done. We are using the learning from that to help us in the future, because we're interested in building longer-term financial resilience for our residents. Now I am particularly pleased on the work that's gone on to make sure people who are eligible to claim benefits are claiming them, because I know how important that is, especially for something like on free school meals, which is like a gateway benefit. It means, if you are, if you claim that you are eligible for other things, I think that's really really important, and I really like the entitled to calculate, I think that's very good as well. Thank you for that. I am disappointed, we're not clear about what's happening with the household support fund. We don't know if there's gonna be a tranche 5, it wasn't mentioned in the autumn statement and then we got the message saying it's not going to continue quickly, followed by it might continue, it's if it doesn't continue, it's going to leave a huge hole.
in the amount of money that the Council has got to help people. And it's you know, I think once we've got over 4 million pounds for household support fund, for we need that moneys help our residents because the cost of living crisis is clearly not over yet. Thank you very much OK, thank you, Councillor Ireland and okay are taking on board the notes. The votes. I've been told that what we should be voting will lead to a agree that the recommendation be is to note the proposed allocation rather than to approve, because it's already been paid. Is everyone agreed with that change? With that amendment, and on item D exactly the same approve, it says, approve a positive General Fund Revenue Budget, it to note as well everyone all agreed on that change.
Councillor Coley, you can go first next time.
okay, so now we move to a vote, the recommendations are.
shall we take them all together, all you?
thank you very much, OK, excellent, carried unanimously.
we now are going to hear from our.

3 Wandsworth Cost of Living Commission Final Report (Paper No.23-406)

3 Wandsworth Cost of Living Commission Final Report (Paper No.23-406)

cost of living commissioners, and I think there's going to be short introduction, we've obviously seen Dorian Latham has been here before, and we have Ian Tatum and Peter Quick because they're Chair, OK and Councillor Akinola would like to.
do a proper introduction, thank you so much, yeah, so I will be sure you've mentioned that few times the way, I hope we will all be very polite to our wonderful Commissioners, Mr Latham.
Mr Lathan and Mr Tatum, Reverend sorry and was so pleased that you're here and I've been well, I feel really like honored, actually to have been working with you and the other Commissioners over this past year, six months yeah
yeah, it's been a year over over the past year, I mean you've brought so much expertise into the Council and your knowledge has been absolutely you know.
unsurpassed really, so thank you so much for all of that, and you know, as we've seen in the previous paper, you know, we've really been listening to things that have come out of the Commission, we've been able to put some of these things into place. Of course it's been very painful for some of the testimony that we've had from people at times, but I'm glad that we actually provided a space for people to speak directly to you, the commissioners and the council about what they're experiencing at this time. So I just want to thank you again so so much for being here and giving up your time to help us, the Council and also the residents of Wandsworth and I wrote some other really lovely things in the in the yeah you can read it, I wrote several other really lovely things, but I just want to say thank you again and now
is that our opportunity really to ask the commissioners respectfully anything that you might want to know, so thank you OK, brilliant and before we start, Commissioners, would you like to say anything, or are you happy to go straight to questions, we are going to say something?
that it would work on it, I would just remind him, my name is Tatton Park, having missed being misnamed, 60 years, I sometimes get a bit, so it both got a little it hopefully dovetailed introductions to to to some of our perspectives really so crisis what crisis? As someone allegedly once said,
when Dorian and myself and my fellow commissioners were invited to prepare a report, it was in response to what looked potentially like a a short term, Chris state of affairs caused by a set of economic shocks, but our conclusion from digging deeper was as as we say in that the introduction to our report that we're facing a situation which is better seen as chronic one with deep roots which can't be dealt with without understanding its complexity.
and looking beyond short term mitigations.
time limitations mean during I can't do anything of this introduction.
I will give a very brief few words.
and see what questions arise for you, but we hope that we have produced what we have, a duty as a well researched, pragmatic and considered contribution to mitigating a situation which, as you've noticed, is changing all the time.
I also like to underline the independence of the commissioners, we were all asked to be involved because of our deep connections with Wandsworth and, in most cases.
have people having expertise in areas which were asked, we were asked to look at which, as you will have read his food, transport, housing and energy, but also in some of what I would describe as the interconnected tissue operating between all these, such as employment business, the diverse culture of the borough and health and wellbeing,
and I am proud of the way that the Commission has listened to and enquired thoughtfully and respectfully to all those who came as witnesses and guests.
we were asked to review the impact of the cost of living, stresses on residents in the borough and to explore the forces driving them and what emerged as you could imagine.
was that all four areas, a main focus, overlapped and could not be divorced from other factors, just one example that came up in the first meeting when we had two dieticians talking about what they had noticed?
it was drawn to attention, of course, that malnutrition, whether immediately caused by not enough food or the wrong sort of food.
was usually exacerbated by such factors as lack of income,
the cost of housing and heating and the unavailability and inaccessibility of affordable, healthy food
we heard over and over again how these challenges were a rising tide, affecting old and young those in the private and public sector, and wearing out those in the voluntary groups who are trying to respond but suffering from exhaustion.
our brief was to come up with recommendations for the council, which could be immediate and long term and which might inform regional and national conversations, and here are just three.
very short headlines to do something about addressing food deserts, there's plenty of data to show where in the Borough there is good, affordable food readily available and where there isn't.
this is something that could have local and important impact and would need to be done in cooperation with the GLA as across London, similar circumstances are rife, this lot of lonely learning to do.
then, on the track, the transport side embedding the already existing walking and cycling strategy.
which, of course, was greatly influenced by gear change the report from the Department of Transport in 2021, but also set up a disability working group on transport and infrastructure, not one run by the Council.
because being disabled is very expensive.
and those who would love to have their lives normalised, including by the chance to work, might have a better chance.
OK.
Mr Latham yeah Roy, Letham
really.
leave them, I'm going to ask for notes on prepare their names for next time any case.
my party, this is basically we undertook a place-based approach.
with right across the Borough of Balham Roehampton, sorry, yes, I do Ra Henson right across and members of the communities came the VCFS came along as well but throughout.
we also met individual members of the the communities, they were focus groups, we actually had people who could come in and give their views online as well.
we collected a massive, both quantitative and qualitative data.
of which there are lots within the LA the authority, a hell of a lot within the authority, but also the voluntary and community sector groups have also got all or a lot of data. We've got input from some of the can. You hear me today, yes, OK, we've got input from Joseph Rowntree Foundation says there's lots of independent information and data that came to help formulate what we were hearing locally and what other organisations outside of the local authority could tell us
the key thing that comes out is that this is not a temporary scenario OK, this is going to last and last, and probably this, it's slightly gonna touch onto Councillor graham's question, maybe one of the reasons for this year, but the complexity of what people are having to deal with is far greater now than.
pre-converted COVID didn't help.
in all the problems has come, the economy hasn't helped, and so there's a lot more complexity, and I think in terms of the 100 and whatever it was, I think, in time to comes it will be good value for money, but what we witnessed in terms of all the data that we we gathered was that the sustained increase in the cost of living is impacting and a lot more people and that the those who previously have an I'll be rude enough to say some folk in Putney yeah, some folk in balance.
there are actually some people now him for their own, they're coming to use food banks as an example when they previously never used food banks, so that that that in itself is a real situation, so there's all income groups and one of you talks about someone talks about mortgages and so on and so there are people who earn mortgages of a certain level.
interest rates have changed, they're now struggling as well, together with the energy prices and so on. So I am quite clear that we have taken as much of the independent perspective of what we've come across. We've created a scenario whereby we think that the local authority and its partners can actually use that data to devise joint strategies to actually deal with these problems, which are not going to go away. The single conversation I have to my mum, my great mentor and friend, was logical a lot, but no Bob because like who's somebody, you've never heard of and Bob died, and this was Bob Bob debate early all last year and this was one of his great things. Unless you actually all talk together, work together, you're not going to overcome the issue and so
a lot of in the 60 70 odd patients, that's in front of you, a lot of recommendations short, medium and long term, and I'm gonna stop this, so you can ask questions, thank you very much, OK.
yes, I'm going to let cats corner golf, can I just take a lead, councillor corner?
sorry, then.
Councillor Marshall,
in
OK, yes, thank you.
Shay a wry, I'm going to say to you all are likely to be very focused on your questions because obviously we've got a big agenda coming up as well, so nice, focused questions, first of all Councillor Corner, thank you Chair and thank you to the commissioners for their work which is extremely informative and interesting to read, I have a question related to supporting our people in it who are renters in the private sector and,
often termed generation rent, what are the recommendations on page 38 of the pack?
Page 30 of the report says that there should we.
the the Council should lobby for an increase in supply of affordable housing.
now, one of the things that I am interested in the Commissioner is views on how the Council should seek to do that, because.
the the report does also recommend that there should be a houses, May affordable houses made available to buy as well, eventually, as we've seen over the past year or so the councils are reduced, the number of
kind of affordable properties products that are available to buy, so, for example, shared ownership garage are interested in the Commissioner views on that and what the mix of housing the Council should be promoting.
it should be to address the cost of living crisis.
it has to be a mixed economy, some people can afford shared ownership and initiate, but if you look at what's been happening with the economy and so on, it gets even more difficult because shared ownership is a little bit more expensive than the than other means so it can't be just solely affordable for tenants but I think what also has to happen there has to be work done with private sector landlords about the the rent levels and of interest we had people from their landlords that I can remember are or will be in a private sector landlords who operate in the borough.
we had some many landlords Association and then they also believe that there has to be a mixed economy in trying to address this, I don't think we're saying it so as to be solely that the local authority are the only one who provides it we need to work with housing associations if we can, I I mean I don't know whether I know there's a couple of co-ops in the in the borough already that I know of rambling brokers and example.
so whatever product can fit the needs, the financial and the economic, but opportunities for some of the households in the boroughs, but the thing is what we do know is that you know, first-time buyers, it's a struggle homeownership, it's a struggle, the council will not be able to provide permanent housing for everyone and therefore we have to work with the with with the private sector landlords as well.
Councillor Marshall,
thank you very much, this very, very impressive, piece of work.
I am just struck by how you set out that they're going to need to be.
different layers of response to this at local and some regional and national level, and you've set out in quite a lot of detail about most of them, begin with lobby lobby for this lobby for that but Wu, and perhaps you could just sort of have a feel for what your overall what's your overall sense of the how much of this lies at a national government level.
I think my impression is, you know, will the local councils have limited room for manoeuvre?
so certainly national government has got to be involved, but also I think it's and it's not just a matter of sort of cash, I think it's a matter of imagination and I think it is we're looking at the way things are connected and we've known this video for the main political parties have got this challenge about we, we've got a national housing shortage but actually how you actually get that dealt with, whether you do it by private or or OK, sort of councils, you've got area to other issues, the environmental factors sort of people objecting et cetera so
I would say that a lot of these things actually are going to be a national level, I mean what goes on in Wandsworth Wandsworth council has got some influence over that, ultimately it's a sort of network, which is national.
in particular when it comes to to housing and obviously benefit levels mean things like the one at the start of some of the issues that we talked about in transport was trying to do targeting subsidised travel for those who are particularly vulnerable, but that is something that wonderful Councillor got very live in limited ranged national government that has got quite as far as I understand quite limited things they can do, but TFM have a role in that, so I think it is trying to find that when we got along with a for an issue which we think we might be able to solve or help to solve it's finding exactly who can and how that mechanism can be instituted.
thank you, if I can just said to that, I mean that the issue is that.
you know, we're not, and neighbouring authorities in London have got near identical problems, and so is the matter of if we can pool our resources and go to whichever is the at the right level, whether it's national government or the regional government to say these are the problems and we need your assistance to overcome them, that's part of the lobbying.
OK, thank you.
Councillor Richards Jones's next,
thanks Chair I'm going to thank the Commissioners for the have considerable time and work they've put into this report, one thing that I think is striking about the report is that it.
makes a lot of policy recommendations across its four areas, sometimes in specific terms, sometimes in quite broad terms.
though I found quite conspicuous that there was an absence of drawing on real policy and action from either other parts of the country or other countries so as, as has already been alluded to these problems, don't exist just in Wandsworth or indeed just in the UK and there's a diversity of of different policies, cross countries that are similar to us that are different to us and there weren't many tangible examples or or case studies which I thought was an interesting feature of the report but to to get specifically, I think that that approach that the report has taken is quite evident, I think, in its recommendation in respect of rent controls, so on paragraph it's page 38 of the agenda but page 30 of the report
there is a recommendation at 23 that says seek options for implementing targeted rent controls, it doesn't explain what targeted means, but what I found striking was that the report doesn't examine what rent controls have done elsewhere and these have been tried extensively in lots of different countries, we would say with really adverse results but there's no examination of that in a report at all.
but what the report does have is it records at, and this is at page 36 of the agenda, it records the evidence that the commission itself received about the causes of high rents in the private rental sector and, amongst those causes it recorded was reduced supply in the private rental sector, the introduction of more restrictive legislation which has led which has had the impact of deterring landlords from remaining in the market, and issues around managing tenancies, including cost and eviction issues.
so one would have thought that, given that the Commission had received direct evidence and implicitly accepted it, that a problem was supply and pressures on on landlords to remain in the private rental sector, it then recommends, without any explanation or justification, targeted rent controls,
so I was disappointed at that because I was quite excited as the cabinet member will remember, I was quite excited about this project and supported it when it first came to committee, because I thought this was a real opportunity for an independent body to proceed evidence and then make recommendations with an open mind. But this seems to be a an example, unfortunately, of hearing the evidence and then arriving at a recommendation that has no basis in the evidence but perhaps derives from from a genuine elsewhere. Councillor Ritchie Jones is that a question right? I mean the the the the. The question is,
how can you reconcile the recommendation for targeted rent controls with whatever targeted means, with the evidence that the Commission had and accepted it, took a while getting there Cat, it's a complicated issue.
I think I'm seeing stuff on the committee not from the Commissioners for happy to go for it, sorry before before I before I let the you know actual authors of this this report respond I had I had no hand in writing this report, this report is totally independent. Yeah, that's what is so this is. This is kind of what it sounded like. You were implying that that there was any political influencing that I had no hand in writing. I had no hand in writing this but I think that all that that's accepted okay, commissioners,
yeah
I tried to strengthen following the question I mean, to be honest, if we actually worked and responded to everything that we came across, the report will be about 10 times the length that it is, so we have truncated and there's not examples everywhere.
I think if memory serves me and my colleagues around the table, Ian and Peter can help me out on this, some of the things about having better room controls actually came from when he had the meeting with with the
similar states and this other or other estate agents. They were the ones who also suggested that we should have we do note, we did note that in one or two local authorities where there had been attempts to have this, it hadn't worked, so we've got to learn the lessons about why it hadn't worked in those areas, so maybe that's it's the wording that's missing, not that we have actually just said. This is what has got to happen and we've actually ignored evidence, but we will
I'm sure we've got enough time to actually address that as we go along, but it's something we think it needs to happen because there are so many more if we don't that's just one of many things that needs to be taken on board to try and help people get better.
control of the rents they are having to pay and the quality of the accommodation that they live in, and that's just one of many aspects of the home, OK, thank you, Councillor Hedges.
thank you Chair just want to say thank you, Mr Latham and Mr Tatum, for all your hard work and your team.
I'm sorry, I didn't get to attend the balanced session very disappointing, but I do know from a resident called Fiona who attended, she said it was, it was very worthwhile, it was a really good session and obviously congratulations, Mr Tatum on your Civic award I did see that on x or Twitter wherever you wanna call it.
so I've got two questions, the first one is what's the reasoning behind dropping the the meals on wheels service and then the second point is on energy, in terms of recommendation 31.
lobby government to deliver a social tariff for energy bills, for low income households who is funding this or who would be funding this, thank you.
I missed the bit about meals on wheels, because I think one of the things conversation, cough conversations, I remember coming out, quite a lot was feeling that meals on wheels had sort of tended to drop out, and there wasn't as much of that I can't remember
as so saying that we wanted less meals on wheels. There was a recommendation of the interim. Your interim report was to develop a meals on wheels service. That was in the previous. You were saying, basically, and it's no longer here yeah thank you. If that's sorry, I didn't understand the question yeah so yeah, that's fine. I think it was
obviously, one of the things that happened we wanted to hone down the recommendations so that there weren't too many of them, and also we very much had or had a sort of steer, and a lead from our commission has had a particular expertise in those particular food fields so,
obviously Toby because of his crew energy, very much guiding us on 10 terms of of energy and and and and Tim on food, and I think probably that just fell by the wayside as being not one of the things that we wanted to put into the into the final report, but it's a very good point that it was something that we were drawn to as being something that we should look at but you just sort of fell out.
and I think that maybe that's the case, that you know, I feel very much, this is a conversation and the final report is in at last word, so the interim report to these ideas and the interim report there's no reason why we have to forget those suggestions, I've missed your second point if you could repeat it please, as the end of your energy tariff, wasn't it?
yes, it was to do with the recommendation 31 under energy lobby government to deliver a social tariff for energy bills.
for low income households, and my question was who would be funding this?
so where this came from really was from a professional specialists in the energy field, and what they were saying is that it's something that's missing compared to other areas, so in the warm water buildings, et cetera, where it would be paid for, would be that it would it would be other.
tariff or other people who will pay for people who are not receiving the the reduced tariff.
sorry, he's answered it.
sorry, if you have little side conversations it makes it very difficult for me to actually get to check whether that's OK, we hear Councillor Hedges', yeah brilliant Councillor Graham, thank you, and I add my thanks as well to the two co-chairs for for coming along this evening it's it's always interesting to hear former Wandsworth Labour candidates talking about their independence.
however, I was going to talk about something else, but I which was a universal basic basic income, but I take it that the honed down and I'm falling out bit probably covers that recommendation as well, so I'd just like to focus instead on something that's appeared between the interim report and the current one which is the
Hilary Cottam, collaborative practice model is recommended, and indeed her book radical help appears on your reading list at the premise of radical help.
her book is that the welfare state has failed and that it shouldn't receive any additional funding, is that something that you're endorsing through this report?
I don't think we're endorsing, I think we were very much struck by the sort of the sort of big picture that she portrayed so I don't think we were, we would argue that aren't addressed in this report, a reconfiguring of the welfare state we were actually looking at, they're trying to solve mitigations with the particular things that are raised, so I don't think that had much more influence than that.
and I think you start not something that we discussed, we might have individuals might have opinions about what we do with the welfare state, but I doubt it came up as a discussion at all during any of our meetings, I just responded it because then there were 15 of us okay 15 so it wasn't simply what you just said it may have been.
so you know there were people, Professor Tip was times last night lying on view at all and in Toby is.
on the energy side, we had Beverley who is representing the business sector and so on and so forth, there was a wide spectrum of individuals there, so I am I am sort of punching back on behalf of Ian I'm sure you can see that OK,
okay and so, yes, that you know there were some interesting perspectives them from, but to be honest, there was so many meetings over the twelve-month period, I can't recall that specific this, that there is a conversation about wiping out the welfare state.
OK, not more of a reading list than a book club than in that case.
I I just I just want broader point, if I can, which is.
last time round, I noted the fact that you hadn't really defined what the cost of living crisis was, even though defining the parameters of what was driving it was one of your objectives, if anything, this report is even less clear about how we know when it started and how we will know when it is over, can you give us any of those parameters as to what we should be looking at?
well, I think.
sorry.
I'd like to hear what dot Mr Latham might like to say, OK, when did it start, I mean?
COVID in the first instance had a huge impact on organisations and individuals and communities, and that's really when it seemed to start significantly, when will it end?
not asking for a prediction. What I'm asking are what are the metrics which determine its its duration? I mean, obviously, a crisis is, by definition, a temporary thing. A lot of what you've focused on, I would actually argue, is about addressing poverty, which is, and that's perfectly fine and good, but it's a different thing to addressing the cost of living crisis, which has to be, by definition, a temporary event. And so what I want to know is what are the metrics that measure that event?
and when are we just back to normal policies to address poverty?
I don't say that's it, it's it's.
it's a very difficult answer, because I think that the things leading to the cost of living crisis are quite embedded, and I think that's what we were saying we so wish when we were asked to look at this at a particular moment.
and in essence we start with the inevitable snapshot and and obviously since we've finished, we actually finished it, inflation has dropped, but it wasn't dropping when we were, we were getting into wards anyway, you know it was expect hoped that it would drop but it it wouldn't.
and the latest data suggests that, yes, inflation dropping and has said earlier that doesn't actually take stress of people, it just reduces the increase in stress.
but inflation on those in rented accommodation since is still running at 6.00.1% so I don't think we know when it's ending, but I think what we wouldn't want to do is get into the sense of saying it's a is a PoMo crisis.
but I think we just found, when we looked at this, this sort of snapshot Watts situation has been exacerbated.
and is being particularly challenging and we were trying to find ways which would do short term mitigations, but also landlord, because basically you know one thing I think that most political parties are against is throwing money at a problem. So if we bailed everybody out, that might've been a short term thing, but the long term would have been catastrophic, so we tended to focus on can't carry on a focus on what we did or did it, and in all of them there were attempts to get a sense of what metrics the metrics were, but I think also we were slightly yeah. We were bound to be influenced by these skills from our commissioners and I was thinking perhaps the transport one, because the people advising us, but particularly looking at those who were already fine, you know impoverish when it came to transport that affected, I think once again the way that we we concluded
so say, yep, the metrics are complex, hopefully there will be added to the cost of living crisis.
might be next year.
be in three years' time might be when the welfare state is reconfigured by some incredibly imaginative politician.
that is fine.
if I can answer that, I think I'll try to answer it.
some of these issues I'm used to that in a couple of minutes ago about the crisis is short term, will this crisis s I, our view, is that it started in 2020 when COVID came along and you still having multiple indices of the problems not fading away in a 19.1% increase in the price of food energy prices is going up.
when are they gonna come down and I just rather interestingly, private sector landlords, some of whom had got favourable rates, will get in their properties, they are going to have to increase the rents that they're charging tenants, et cetera, so that if there's a multiple of factors so then one of the issues I know from my own experience in in this world is that sometimes you want to be able to hold it still to be addressed something and then move on, and unfortunately, society doesn't allow us to do that.
you know, and who would have guessed that someone decided to invade Ukraine, that the impact that would have on things over here very simple, so it I I'd love to answer your question to say, could I possibly tell me I know you're not looking for definitive, it'd be very, very hard OK, thank you, I'm just going to say something to that, the home team and my son, I've got two people who were in the first round of questions. My sense is obviously we could spend a long time discussing this, but we do have a limited agenda. What I reckon we can probably do is another few minutes on this, but I would also like to hear what the a small discussion on what the plans are coming next
including whether or not the commissioners are going to be able to do further of the sessions, and so I've got Councillor Anne, Bash and Councillor Osborne, now I know there's been and I had other people after you before then, so let can we go with that and then bring it to a close is that fair enough?
yeah is that okay, right Councillor Ann, but she had a questionnaire.
there had been a Councillor for 10 years and Wandsworth Council, I don't think we've worked work with independent commission on a complex problem like this, which is an ongoing and multifaceted CA, different policy areas and different levels of government. So thank you for the enormous challenge that you've risen to and can wondering about learning and having an independent commission. What, from your point of view, have you learned about running an independent commission and indeed learned about working with once with Council and on the second-hand? What particular issues have come up that have surprised you about the cost of living in Wandsworth that you didn't necessarily anticipate when you took the job on
first of all, the, as I said, this 15 of us.
however, you know advice on backgrounds and so on and so forth so.
it was expertise that people brought to the table and every time we went out to the focus group areas and also when we had our own commission and his meetings looking at whether it was energy housing, I I repeatedly said I wish we hadn't spent a whole day or couple of days set aside because there are so many issues copy now what would the solutions could we come up with which you know but but we were spending half days you know and obviously,
people who had day jobs to get on with, so we didn't do so, that's the main thing to me, there was some fantastic information coming through, there was also the repeat of the issues seen by people from different areas, different socioeconomic status. Wherever we went across the borough, it wasn't just poor people, so to speak, in inverted commas, OK, so it is a common issue.
yeah and I'd like to say it, it's the importance, I think, of a conversation.
I might say something referred about my political position was referred to earlier on.
my my membership of the Institute of economic Affairs wasn't mentioned.
also you review the UPI alright 0, my involvement with sort of business business for an Forum and the South Fields which I helped to set up, so, but I think the thing is, it sounds conversations and it was in you know, if you just get a sense that if you get more wisdom in the room then you could get more insights into what the challenges are.
one of the things, I think, that that really hit a lot of all of us was the when we had the conversation between those.
project rent.
and Samuels, estate agents, the amount of synchrony synchronicity between the two and the fact they went off for a drink together afterwards, you know this thing is we can have this conversation and we did try to get more business. We did have, obviously we had a Chamber of Commerce involved and there are people who Commissioners who have got business experience, including someone who spent seven years as a hill farmer, so I just think it's that it's that conversation that gets beyond
sort of party party politics perhaps gets beyond sexual interests and says Well, there's there's that there's a common challenge, which is affecting some people really badly others a bit, we're all in it together, to quote someone once said.
thank you, Councillor Osborne, how helpful my short question, not especially no.
as it happens, hopefully, thank you very much.
no, I'm interested very much in the new ways of work that you've described in. This report is very impressive and I want to do two things in my question. Why I want to invite you if you haven't had a chance to just name some of the other things that you're doing. You've talked about the the the Cas Lake method and so on. The not so new but important in what you've done and if there are any others that you think that we, you ought to air in this meeting plea, please do do say, but in particular I want to home in on one your place-based approach to to this project and driving this project forward. I mean, I think all sides would agree that the Council is perhaps a touch behind the curve as councils go on place-making as a borrower, and can I invite you to be bold and say that what you have done here? It shows the Council a way forward on a a place-based approach to problem-solving and something which the Council can learn from, not just in dealing with stuff like the cost of living crisis, but in a much wider scope and or in many other areas.
well, someone had said earlier on the about, you know, what learning have we done, the there's lots of examples right across the country about that play space, and I mean in my career I've been out there and still you do have to go out and talk to people who live in out there and find out what's happening to them.
and actually come back and not just sit behind your desk and you know not not not respond, so that's one of the lessons that you can go to other local authorities.
is it Buckingham bedlam, that's the the the the hubs as an example, and I think the other thing I have learned is about go out of London. London boroughs tend to be very London centric. Yes, we tend to think we're the only ones with the problems and the only ones which the solutions and we're not, and the local authorities and organisations outside and indeed in Europe. Yeah were the models that we can learn and, dare I say, it's maybe some parts of the USA as well
but you know so sorry.
OK so.
I was just saying there was none of that in the report. I completely agree with you, yeah, well I mean it's conversations that we had OK that we can learn from others and some, but we had limited time we had a 12 month period. We didn't want to produce a tone that you know so we've zoomed in and maybe that, and obviously that conversation will continue. The key thing is that the Council has got to get all those other agencies around the table regardless of the political philosophies and try and work out. What are we gonna do for once, with for once, with because the issues in ones of a bit different from the issues in Tower Hamlets or in Liverpool or in Bristol full stop? I'm gonna, stop preaching
brilliant right, thank you very much and I think that's probably good notes pause this, I would like Ms O'Connor, I just wonder if you could give us a brief rundown of the next steps, including, I thought something was being said about further opportunities to talk to the commissioners but,
if you can fill us in and then we can move to vote. Yes, of course. So, as the report outlines, we'll be bringing a report back in February to this committee around the recommendations in the W in the report were also going to be sharing the report with stakeholders in the borough and discussing those, because obviously the report looks to system-wide recommendations. We engage quite a lot with the LGA in terms of bringing in examples from other areas, and they observed the Commission and obviously will be sharing the report with them in London Councils in terms of further engagement with the commissioners. We know that this is something that Councillors or Councillors are very, very interested in not just in this committee, and so what we're looking to do is organise a all Councillor briefing in January, where all councils will be able to attend he f about the Commission and hopefully hear from our chairs if we can get their availability
okay, brilliant, thank you very much, OK, so I would recommend a on a technical point is to do with the vote. I am be we we understand c, not only do we do not quite understand what it means, but it also seems inappropriate for some recommendations to be taken forward without specifying which they are without Executive, having taken a view on them. So I think C is basically there in error and should just be removed.
Councillor Akinola, if you've got any comments on that for the paper, I mean, I I N I I see that it's less, it's not, as obviously clear as to what the recommendation is Councillor Akinola, I think the recommendations have to be taken, as is OK. So this just is saying that the Executive has not taken stance on the recommendations to the Council will not have a view on the recommendations, but officers are supposed to work out which recommendations with the Executive has not endorsed and I've just currently only have the status of covenant when the Commission will be taken forward prior to the Executive potentially saying it doesn't want them or it doesn't make sense. I'm not, I'm not saying this to be difficult, I think it's just an error to have done that. I understand
I think where it's coming from, but technically it's an error, if there are things exactly wants to do, you can also bring those up, but it should really wait for the executive's response, and if, if it's actually wanted to take forward things sooner, it should have taken the stance on them you've reserved taking a stance on any other stuff.
until until January, so you can't then ask staff to be advanced that you're not approving.
well Councillor canola, it's do you like the recommendation to step yeah, as it is the recommendations, as is OK, thank you, so can we ask which recommendations they are that referred to and see?
which which recommendations will be taken forward prior to the Executive, approving them the ones that we decided to take forward you're not deciding until January, that's my point, this is a, this is a circular conversation.
circular, unfortunately, as your logic Councillor Akinola and I'm not saying that to be rooted right, as though, as the Chair has said, the recommendations will stand as as they could officers explained to us, which recommendations they will be taking forward if this is voted on.
sorry, Councillor, I Care question, what does the what does the that recommendation see endorse?
right, I think we've heard from Councillor, I could help me move to a variation yes.
and obviously, Councillor Graham, if you wish to extend the meeting, and that's obviously going to be your choice, you can vote against the recommendation if you wish that's absolutely fine and within your purview I want to take the recommendations as they are in this report or if I'm taking them in parts we will take see separately and we will vote against it, but it would be nice to least having writing from officers what they think that authorises before we executives endorsed anything.
noted.
okay, the we've got recommendations, A B and C in this paper, could you those in favour of a agreed, is be agreed as well greed and see, I think we might need to have a vote on it right SH, Councillor Cohen, I usually ask people to raise their hands OK those in favour of see please raise their hands.
at 6.00 isn't it?
yeah, those against see please raise their hands, that's for.
brilliant, so it's carried 6 4 and the Chair didn't vote excellent, thank you very much now and I'm just going to say thank you again and thank you for coming to see us.
and please pass on all the

5 Voluntary Sector Needs Analysis and the design of a Voluntary Sector/Civil Society Strategy (Paper No. 23-408)

5 Voluntary Sector Needs Analysis and the design of a Voluntary Sector/Civil Society Strategy (Paper No. 23-408)

the gratitude and the thanks to your co Commissioners, OK, we're now going to move to let's find it. The voluntary sector needs analysis. What I am just going to remind you as we ran over quite more than I thought I I realised when we got started, so we now need to just be very focused, and Councillor Kennedy is going to do a very short, a very short introduction to this report, please, I always am very short to shame that the other officers, as have left already, because I wanted to say a big thanks to all officers that have been involved in both the previous paper and and also this paper, and I'm just really pleased that we as a Council have finally committed to working and supporting our voluntary sector, and I know that this piece of work was really well received by the voluntary sector. They really engage, you know the, we won them round. Eventually,
and we built better relationships with a lot of these organisations, we've discovered new organisations as well, and all the ways that they support our residents, which is really valued, and I just you know right now we're gonna take this opportunity to celebrate the wealth of the good work across the borough and improve our working relationships with them, so I think at this point I'm passing over to Mr. Evans,
thank you, Chair, if I may I thank you, Councillor Akinola and.
I mean, I think that hopefully the report speaks for itself, but, as Members will see, we commissioned rocket science to do a needs assessment of the voluntary sector, and this is part of the Council's a journey really to strengthen its partnership and to strengthen its relationship with the the voluntary sector to really get under the skin and and to find out what what the sector, what the needs of sector were, what they were saying to us and how they wanted to move forward and how we could support them in in doing so now and how we and our partners as well, so this report and it has been a
a really detailed process that has engaged the sector across the borough from small to large, and I think the feedback we've had from the sector has been really really positive about the the journey we've we've been on and we're really pleased with with that, and it's very much start of a journey really and it's about trying to build a more relational relationship with the wider sector moving away from, I think, previously more of a transactional or commissioning relationship before
so the report set out has got lots of detail in it, but there's a couple of key recommendations in their round and drafting a strategy about how we work, work in partnership with sector, but also work in and to develop a commissioning framework for future infrastructure and capacity needs work as well with the sector and all of it very much in terms.
been co-designed and work with the sector, so it is not about a council, determine what it thinks is best needed, it's about working in partnership with the sector to to work that out, so thank you and it will come from Colin and Lisa Watson here is very much involved in the detail of it and Amelia whereas behind me as well who did a lot of the work of the voluntary sector,
okay, right start with questions.
OK, Councillor Hedges', Councillor Warrell, Councillor Corner.
sorry, I had over there Councillor Anne Bash.
Jones and Peter Graham and I'm just gonna remind everybody, try and be very concise with your questions, OK, Councillor Hedges, thank you Chair, and thank you both for coming along and talking to us about the VCFS strategy in my capacity as opposition spokesperson for the grant sub,
I've got a very keen vested interest in this paper, now I just wanted to refer you to pay at page 51 and page 52 there's a couple of items there where you talk about the the council's own grant programme is regarded as insufficiently flexible.
and a couple of other 0. Yes, the amount of bureaucracy is is off, putting for the smaller organisations, now what we see on the grants committee is that there isn't enough resource that the council any way to properly do the back checks I do, I do question some of the due diligence as well, so my concern is that we would be essentially
giving more money to more VC essays, but smaller organisations that might not necessarily be capable of doing the proper pre and post due diligence and whether we actually even have the resources of the Council to be able to do that anyway because, like I say, I question what we do it now.
could you please confirm a bit more about that because I am obviously and risk averse and I'm slightly concerned that we won't have the infrastructure to deal with this, thank you.
sheriff 0, no, thank you for question.
I think first of all to say that this, this one sector in such paper is is is much more than the London grants, it's about looking at the the Council and its partners.
commission and support the sector in very many ways, financially, and the once a grand fund is a pretty small part of that, so, but an important part was all the same, and I think we ought what we've hit. What we're seeing now is that it is a report back and set about what they think about the the grants fund and how they find that, so that is a mirror up to us about how we move move forward.
what report isn't doing is saying we propose to put loads more money into the Wonderground fund and all that sort of stuff, but what he's saying is actually is always a balance to be struck, it's right, we challenge ourselves about whether we've got the right level of balance between bureaucracy and of course protecting public money and how that's used and we do recognise actually.
some small groups and grew.
voluntary and community groups do find some of the process is quite onerous, we just have to accept that, and it's probably about thinking about how do we work with them to to to make that better,
but also provide the assurance that Councillors would expect that we do so I don't have an answer for that and just I think they're just reflecting back that that is a concern for them and I don't think we're unusually in Wandsworth, I suspect that's probably a concern you get in other councils as well.
sorry, just a quick follow up on that, so if we are, I know you're saying that we're not directly proposing to give any more money out, but obviously that's implied, but will you be making sure that you you give adequate training to the small PCSOs so that they know or the voluntary sector so that they know,
they know what to expect because we can't just dish money out here there and you know without doing the proper checks and backtracks.
thank you.
who are actually one of the sort of key pulses report is is around looking about how it can support the the infrastructure and capacity and therefore also training needs of the sector, and many borrowers will have a or a CVS Councillor voluntary services, once it doesn't have or doesn't have that and hasn't had similar for for many years and,
we all look and see whether actually.
the what what sort of support mechanisms could you know we could look at, and that's one of the recommendations in the report that we want to the sector has said very much about what they need, that are very many ways of delivering that and of course training is one of those so we're looking at various options definitely, but you make a very good point and that is something we are looking at.
thank you, Councillor Warrell, please, thank you, as someone who's worked, most of his life in the voluntary sector, nearly all about 50 years in the voluntary sector, in various capacities and in across different parts of London, I really welcome this report, I think it's really useful it's a way of taking things forward.
and it shows a commitment to the voluntary sector, I think from any for a long time the voluntary sector has been seen as a group of do good as it come together and filling in a space, it's actually this report recognises that the voluntary sector is a partnership, it's a partnership with the local authority and a partnership with the NHS as well in terms of delivering,
aspects of of work from the community that recognise and allowing community to actually do for themselves rather than being done onto, so I I I welcome this. I think a couple of things I just want to highlight is that there is a cost of participation within the voluntary sector in terms of development, so it costs time and money for people like myself to come to committee meetings if I'm off with the local authorities in my area of work, afford to participate in things, and so in taking this forward, I think one things we I'd like to
as a consideration is that there is a hidden cost sometimes of development, and we need to recognise that, in terms of the way we support the voluntary sector.
the other thing as well is within this, as one of the things that said is that it's you talk about co production and actually joint working with the voluntary sector, which I really welcome. That has implications for the local authority in terms of giving a power in terms of giving me end and actually reaching out and working on an equal basis, and I suppose it means a system change within the thinking of the local authority as well and as what work would be I suppose coming out of this would be done with the local authority staff to actually understand that shift of relationship and a shift of power rather than a commissioning down processes and equal working
thank thank you so, yeah we do recognise that there is a cost of in terms of participation, and part of the needs assessment, looked at examples in other local authorities, so, for example, where they have, you know, recognise that and made contributions to organisations as part of them participating in different consultations.
you know, and it's about valuing their input and contribution, so I think in terms of taking forward this strategy, that will be one of the areas that we will explore as well with the sector, because that is part of the approach that were taken is about listening to organisations and understanding what their needs are into to make their contribution.
sorry, Turkey must pick up the second points of note.
the question that was so there was points about how we work as it as a Council as well, and it requires a shift in. You know that and how we how we work, that sort of top-down commissioning, I think Councillor mentioned, you know, you know one of our themes and are in a change programme is is is very much looking at how is how, as an organisation, we can sort of build, communicate, community capacity and how, as a as a staffing group, we essentially relate to the sector and how we work really so it's very much on the on the radar about how we were looking at that, so we've got certainly not got the answers yet, but certainly on the on the radar OK thank you Councillor Corner.
thank you, Chair and I was very interested to read this report, but what the report doesn't really comment on is East the concept of induced demand now clearly there is a huge amount of demand in the borough for support for the voluntary sector and they do an incredible amount of good work in every part of our borough from from what I can see, but we do need to when we're considering this area of policy, consider the fact that when the Council generously, as we have, we have decided to do make more funds available for the voluntary and community sector that, of course demand will increase because the people running our voluntary organisations would not be doing their job correctly if they were simply ignoring the fact that this new funding was available. So my question is, how is the council going to take forward this paper in a way that
that considers induced demand that has been created by the increased amount of money that the Council is making available for the voluntary and community sector, and I would also like to ask the Cabinet members how they will distinguish between demand, that it is absolutely a priority for this Council to satisfy and,
demand that may not be A or B that if it wasn't for the increased support that the Council has been offering and is continuing to offer.
so.
Thompson first.
thank you, Councillor Corner for the question, so I induced demand, I think we would look at it the other way round and sort of.
and said actually.
harnessing the power the voluntary sector is Y in a Council in straitened financial times, actually enhancing the power sector to help deliver services, often more preventative.
and universal, and I think that is a that is a good thing, we think there's much more we can do as a Council working in partnership with both statutory and voluntary partners to be added to be able to lever that that in and I think that's not what we're not doing very well at the moment and this is what this report is trying to get us to.
Hang up so Councillor Corner Councillor Akinola was going to respond, thank you, I just wonder if Councillor Cohen has been here for most of this meeting, we've just gone through two papers about the cost of living crisis and how need is increasing, however,
not all of the grant funds is just about addressing cost of living crisis, and indeed actually grants forms a very small part of the work that the voluntary set out sorry, our grant from Wandsworth forms a very small amount of the amount of funds for the voluntary sector, I believe in paper it's something like 6 million pounds they bring in and we definitely do not dole out 6 million pounds to the voluntary sector.
I also I mean, I also think that we're not, as we're not giving money just to address the cost of living, we give money for towards our arts fund, for environmental projects, for innovation as well as to build their capacity, although that has been a recent thing and they have been supporting us over winter but I it's not it's not increased won't in fact I I believe in the last grant meeting we didn't even fully subscribed.
how much money we actually had to give out, we still had some money left over, so there is still some work for us as Councillors to do to advertise the grant funds so that people actually apply for it.
OK, thank you, yeah.
and actually, just at this stage before we go any further, I've just remembered that car park counts Councillor Akinola Hello, I'm I'm deaf, I've just remembered that you missed the declaration point because you arrived like which is are there any declarations of either pecuniary or other registered ballroom wrong registrable interests?
that might be relevant for the paper.
yes, one of my, I think my organisation might have taken part in the needs assessment being enriched, OK, thank you very much OK, continuing with Councillor Anne Bash I would and again.
mindful of time please OK off, we go Councillor Ryan back, thank you, Chair yeah, I will be, as Mr. Evans said, this rocket science report was very interesting, Mirror and showed how we are trying to reset from a transactional to a co production and stronger partnerships, and I think it's not.
fortuitous that the change programme is about one of the themes is how do we work more effectively and in partnerships with the voluntary sector and with with the NHS? So I just wanted to put in a bit of a plea for the Craft Grants Committee and maybe I've got something in common with Councillor Hedges when we get into working out the strategy. There are some lessons I'm sure for the grants committee and commissioning. More generally, I hope that maybe Councillors who were on the grants committee might be included in some of those discussions to develop that the strategy and the last question on the strategy is, will it help us get more impressive De Sica's, it says the data is a bit patchy and the impacts of the voluntary sector in the in the work they do will we get better data on needs and better data on impacts
thank you Chair, and thank you Councillor ambush, and I think the answer is yes, you know that that was one of the issues identified for the report, and we again we don't have the answers for that, but it is certainly something we'd like to look at, I think there's a lot of shared data out there in the sector a lot of
a lot of these data, a lot of data on clients, people are seen and we don't make the most of that to actually target our our resources in partnership so yeah, absolutely I was hoping that was the answer and look forward to being involved, OK, brilliant, thank you, Councillor Richard Jones,
thank you Chair.
I found the report very interesting and the the the reports are a continuation of the policy that was started in May 2022, of funding the voluntary and community sector to meet needs that the new administration had identified, I wanted to ask officers whether, in the very detailed work that's gone on since May 2022, whether there were any needs or any services that officers thought might be better provided directly by the Council.
rather than through the voluntary and community sector.
I'm not sure I can answer that I mean the needs assessment that was about looking at the themes. As the report sets out, it's not about looking at individual services and individual outcomes for service users, so I I think I know what you're asking and I don't think genuinely I can provide an answer on that because it isn't. The work hasn't been about that at the moment and this doesn't replace the work that goes on in our council teams and commissioners and the the money we commissioned the voluntary sector across the council every every year. Really so no, I'm sorry, I can't
and that maybe colleagues can keep. Could I expand just very briefly on on the questions it might, it might help officers. It's that the the the premise of the work is that there's the there's some delivery that the Council wasn't undertaking. That was very important to support. So we've gone to the the VCFS and the question arises is there could be lots of reasons why the council might itself want to take it on one being is is guaranteeing the sustainability of it, because of the council has more control over its own operations than it does any particular VCFS organisation, so it's the question is that that in in surveying the need, is there anything the council has identified the officers thought actually do you know what we would rather deliver this ourselves rather than deliver it in partnership with an external body
I think the answer is no, I mean we're open-minded as we move forward, but there's nothing that comes out as something that we've said we would arrived at it, I mean passes work with society, we we as a Council don't have all the answers and actually we want to understand what the sector is saying to us and actually some of the solutions it may be for the health colleagues or it may be the sector themselves and what they can bring to the table. So I think I do very much view it as a or as a co produced outcome. So no, sorry, I'd I don't have any examples of you, you raise sorry, Councillor Richard Jones, chief executive is
wanted to make it, so I just I just wanted to make the observation that, although we've not come at that particular question in this piece of work, I would expect whenever the Council is looking at, commissioning or recommissioning services. One of the things that should be done is once you've identified the outcomes that you're trying to deliver, what is the best method of delivering that and the then met when we do commissioning if if a service is currently being delivered by the voluntary sector? One of the questions we should always ask as part of that commissioning cycle is, are they still the best placed organisation to deliver that service, and should it be, amongst other things, potentially taken back in-house, so although we haven't done it through this exercise, I would want us to be doing that as part of our regular commissioning of any services that we were delivering.
thank you, OK, Councillor Graham, and then hopefully after that we can move to a vote so.
my concern with this paper was the sort of wrapped up in a phrase that was just used by Mr. Evans. The sector has said because on page 165 of our pack overall, we see that there are around 800 charities in Wandsworth. We've only spoken rocket and he spoke to 57 7%. And the participants and key consultees which are listed on page 2 4 8 2 4 9 are exactly the same names that we see all the time. They are the organisations that, by and large, currently received funding from the Council. The organisations quoted throughout the needs report are the same names that were familiar with what what we appear to have done is commissioned, something to go out and look at the voluntary sector as a whole and actually gone and spoken to the people. We, we fund, who've not surprisingly said that they want to continue to be funded and want to shape how we fund them a future that does not seem to me to be addressing the whole of the voluntary sector
thank you, Councillor, I'm I mean this. This report is a piece of research and is based on a snapshot of engagement with what we feel is that it is a pretty decent snapshot of the odd cross section of the of the of the sector and of course some of those will be funded groups and aunts and and and we we do see this again a starving journey and one or one of the things out of this is we want to enhance our engagement with with the smaller sector, I suppose in in there as well, so and
so, yeah n mature because I really care if it's a pretty decent cross section, how many of those participants and consultees do not receive funding from the Council.
what I think Councillor Graham knows O'Connor, I don't have that data, so I can provide it to the same question I asked on Monday so that if you still don't have the data, it would be useful to have it at some point.
so how does one minute I've actually suggested I I'm looking at the agenda again about the timings I had a question Councillor Corner, put his hand up Councillor worlds, put his hand up and Councillor Akinola has offered to say something more, I'm happy to carry on.
OK, if you would like to ask Europe.
OK.
Councillor, I will ask Councillor Atkin owner, Councillor Rural, your position. Is this going to add anything to keep it very short? Please OK, thank you Chair and I will keep it short. I think Councillor Grahame does not understand how the voluntary sector actually works. We do have our own forums where we do come together, we do exchange, formally and informally. Information work has been done by the inns in VTO and other organisations around funding from the from councils and from other funding sources. It's a very complex picture, but we do not work in isolation, we do talk to each other and certain organisations do have the brief to speak on our behalf for smaller organisations. I think that some of the questions coming from the opposition clearly show they do not understand how the voluntary sector actually works, and I'm astounded having read this report about some of the questions coming from them. OK, thank you very much, Councillor World Councillor, I can only very briefly if there's anything more to say before we move to next steps in the vote
I love what you what Councillor World just said, but also want to draw your attention to page 250, where it actually says there was 77 responses and then on, in addition to the ones that you have counted, though it's more than the 56 that you mentioned on point of information the report itself clarifies that there was 77 from 57 organisations so that 77 includes multiple responses from individual organisations. I wasn't incorrect.
okay, but thank you, so I'm now going to suggest we move to vote on the recommendations in the report which are about establishing.
strategy and agreeing the co-design of the fray.
to prove my point just please get on, please go would make it so much easier if you could keep your bottom on your sink, Councillor Currie.
thank you and stop whispering across the a friend right.
OK.
the recommendations therein paragraph free that we should agree, establishing a forest, etc. And civil society strategy and agree the co-design of a new framework OK, I'd like to pull that to a vote, please at all those everyone in favour any any.
recommendation, A everyone in favour, what how can you state hands right up in the air, please, so I can count?
6 anybody against any abstentions for thank you, that's an A and an B, how does that work 6 4?
and four abstentions OK, thank you very much, Councillors right.
Councillor
Councillor

6 Wandsworth Asset Management Strategy (Paper No.23-409)

6 Wandsworth Asset Management Strategy (Paper No.23-409)

k right somewhat later than I expected, but we're getting there is we'd like to?
we now have.
they are the asset management strategy.
Mr Shah is going to do a very short, very short introduction to the strategy, and hopefully we can cover that.
right thank you, Chair.
for those of you who don't know me, my name's Dave shop and the assistant director responsible for property services just to provide a bit of context. Asset strategies were first introduced in the early 2000 part of central government policy. These strategies have evolved, but should still include necessary information on the Council's estate in terms of building numbers, type statutory compliance, future maintenance costs, sustainability and governance arrangements. Whilst doing that, this strategy is also driven by how our estate will be utilised to deliver this administration's key ambitious policies relating to a fairer and more compassionate and sustainable borough, whilst ensuring value for money and an estate fit for current and future use. Paragraphs 19 to 25 outline the administration's key policy drivers and link these to a wide range of existing and future service development, including achieving our climate change and Net Zero targets, family hubs seeking significant departmental service reviews, better developing relationships with key partners such as the voluntary sector and the NHS in place in our community at the forefront of our asset planning
the paper sets out the Council's Asset Manager Asset Management Strategy for the next five years and provides the overarching framework for managing the Council's property assets, this strategy aims to deliver a fit for purpose and sustainable property estate that supports service delivery and is appropriate, appropriately managed and maintained, the Council has developed this Asset Management Strategy and working closely with CIPD for property who provide best practice and advice on public sector estate strategies and property management.
whilst this report is not intended to provide the detailed business cases and individual projects in relation to investment, co-location and consolidation of the estate, it sets out the process framework, an overarching strategy and governance to enable this to work to successfully proceed and is essentially the starting point for this work to progress and will be the sub and will be subject to update and review. The strategy should be viewed in conjunction with the action plan at Appendix A of the report, which sets out the key work streams that are being developed and progressed by services that will feed into us to feed into asset and play space planning, reviews and service delivery models leading to a more efficient property estate, exploring opportunities for co-location and consolidation and driving efficiencies and potential savings or additional income streams. This has set the success and pace of the wider asset review will, to a larger extent, depend on the timely emergence of the service strategies, as individual service strategies around, for example, family hubs or leisure provision, are concluded, business cases for investment in and usage of property assets will be agreed with members and fed back through service committees. Progress updates will then feed into the change programme via the assets work stream. Update reports officers are happy to take any questions.
right Councillor Graham first, yes, so, as Mr shot will know, when I read this report I was.
slightly confused by the references sipri fit for
work and asked if there's anything lying behind it, what lies behind this report is a document called asset management strategy 2023 to 2028, which is a 38 page report which goes into far more detail than the paper that we have in front of us, so I just want to be absolutely clear, could perhaps Mr shock clarify or a and and confirm that what we have here is a summary, important parts of which are based on that that document I have just referred to and that that document has been relied on in producing this report. Is that correct? We commissioned CIPFA to provide us with support and advice in developing our Asset Strategy. As I said earlier, they are, you know, they are sort of leaders in best practice. As far as public sector assets or asset management is concerned, so they have provided information and supported us in the development of this strategy. Obviously, as with any consultant information they provide us, you know, will help us inform our decision making and inform our our strategy. So, yeah, it has formed the basis of of this report. However, it was felt by officers that it was better to summarise a strategy on this basis rather than it disclosed that full report. What I say, but just to be clear, it is not the the the Council has put in terms of officers have already endorsed it by designing it up with the Wandsworth logo. On it, not saying it's from Cyprus, it is this that is and if it has been produced internally to be the strategy at the point it was at in July is correct
it's been drafted to support our asset strategy.
can I can I ask why it is not listed as a background paper to the report, given that the Local government Act 1972 says that any report which is which important parts are relied on?
and relied on to a material extent must be listed.
as I said earlier, the report was committed, sorry CIPFA were commissioned to provide support and advice as a consultant in developing our asset strategy, we taken elements of their of their report and we've used that to inform this document that we published, that's not the question I asked though what I was asked was given your earlier answer why it has not been listed as a background paper.
because of officers have taken the view that the that we didn't need to.
but the the the question which I asked you at first, which summarised exactly the legal criteria in the 1972 Act you, you agreed with me that that was the case. Those are the two criteria for when you legally have to list a background paper, sorry, the we can all object to people using the this documentation is not referenced. The officer has made no pretence that, as Alison from CIPFA, I think you're pursuing a pedantic point which is really unnecessary and not very helpful is not moving the discussion forward. We will get serious questions to ask about it, not about how much of the which chapter comes from the CIPFA report, which you pointing out to everyone, whether some copyright lawyer Councillor Bolton, we're talking about compliance with the law, but I will. I will move on because I will pursue this matter elsewhere. However, complying with the law is not a minor point, and members of the committee, I'm sure you weren't aware that this document existed. My point is that you should have been, and that it contains a number of very interesting points, so my next question, my next question is to the Cabinet Member, and can she tell us whether, by voting for this strategy, we are endorsing the points in that report which is branded up with the Wandsworth logo on it to sell for Dodington activity centre to sell the Roehampton youth club to sell your gardens Children's Centre adventure playground and to sell Bradstone ECM School
no 13, sorry, I just wondered, if actually I think I saw something coming from the officer before you, I've asked a direct question to the Cabinet Office, I'd be grateful if you could answer it.
do you want me to add a year as part of the the the process that CIPFA undertook? They met with they met with services, they had initial discussions around potential properties and assets are and RAG rated. Those buildings that that process was undertaken are, as as you know, or as information to inform it, and none of those decisions have been taken. Yet we have a detailed action plan that's included in this paper. There is work going on around asset reviews that will lead to opportunities at this stage. We're not making any decisions on the future of those assets, so I come back to it. A document which is branded as ones worth Council's asset management strategy for the years included, has a cow or a table in which itself, under the heading, sell the dotage activity centre at the Roehampton Youth Club. Your gardens, Children's Centre, adventure playground and Brightstowe Sen School is that the position of the Executive, as far as I'm aware, no
have you seen this report, yes, I have been aware that that was the recommendation seen the report, the the what you're being asked to might take a decision on now is the report in front of you 23 4 0 9, and the recommendations, not the other report that you're referring to. Perhaps the Chair could clarify that, because recommendation, A so as to approve the contents of this report and the Asset Management Strategy, the Asset Management Strategy, as it says on the cover, is the report I have just referred to, which has not been given to the committee
that that isn't the case, the asset management strategy is the report that's been just being put up here, that the the report that you are referring to is or is a work commissioned for a consultant and and the RAG rating process was included as an example.
why, in that case, does it say London Borough of Wandsworth asset management strategy 2023 to 2028 with Wandsworth logo on it, and it's designed by our own Prince?
I think, are you trying to imply that we already have made?
I could so apply, whether that is the asset management strategy, and that I think your wording of EIS suggests that that is what we are adopting. This report is not an asset management strategy, but the document we haven't been given is Councillor Graham, I think it's explained that what we're going to be doing is voting on this, and I think also the cabinet member has been pretty clear that decisions about which buildings are going to be sold or not sold or developed or not developed or anything else happening to them have not been made. Yet. It was initially described as summary wasn't Councillor Mrs. A summary of what's in that fuller document Councillor Graham
thank you right, Councillor Anne Bash.
as Mr. Shah said, this is the start of a process and I think it's a good start, as I understand it, the asset management strategy is embodied in the committee report that we've been given, and the appendix is the action plan for the next three or five years this is really important work and it's important that we take this forward across the council.
and with all the departments of the Council, I must say I was hoping for more within the Asset Management Strategy, about the quality of the buildings we have and are fit for purpose they are, and I don't really see that and within the action plan I was hoping that rather than lots of reviews we could come to more action, but maybe as this is the first iteration we will come to that soon.
in terms of action in the action plan and clearer timescales so that I hope will agree the recommendations as a start, but could I ask the Chief Executive, would we agree this should come back again to this committee early in the new year with a more worked out strategy and a clear action plan?
would would that be possible?
I think is.
as Mr. Sharpe explained, it's not the intention to revisit the strategy, the greater detail that you're looking for would come forward in the more service, specific actions and strategies that sit under this, so I am not aware we've got an intention to revise this strategy, it's meant to be very high level it's meant to be at the level of principles it's the work that is taken forward under the umbrella of that that I think will give you the detail that you're looking for but,
perhaps some Mr Sharpe just like to confirm I've got that right.
yes, thank you yeah, thank you yes, as correct, OK, thank you very much, just on this point, because I Councillor ambushes is entirely correct and the background report does go into great detail about the quality of the buildings and it does list a series of actions, and then there's this has been developed and then it's been summarised away in what's been given to us, so I entirely agree with him that it is inappropriate for it to be put to the Committee in this form and the Committee should see the full detail before agreeing in March. Councillor Graham, I think the next person I had on my list was Councillor Corner again, mindful of the time Councillor Corner. Thank you, Chair, and I. I share the concerns that have been raised about this committee endorsing an asset management strategy without knowing the detail of of what what might come forward as a result of endorsing that. So, for example, in the document that Councillor Graham has uncovered and explained to the Committee today, we have an assessment of the Battersea library building and how that might be managed, going forward, the conclusion of which is that sorry to excuse me, Councillor Cohen, and I I know you've picked this up from your cabinet late. However, it's rather difficult for us to be referencing a document that hasn't
isn't in front of this committee, I should have been a background report, yeah, that's as maybe I'm just asking you so it that's the complication, if you're gonna, you've already heard from the cabinet member if it specifically mentioned something we haven't made a decision, so if you could focus your question towards what is in the paper and I I will, I will make it clear what is being referenced so Battersea Library, which, as Councillors will know, is a much loved community asset, its houses, the CIB, which we have been talking about the importance of a lot of this committee, and it is obviously a very key community asset for those of people who or
in HMO, living in more deprived communities.
the report and that was commissioned.
by CIPFA and concludes that although the Battersea Library it has civic importance, it's worth careful consideration of alternatives, does this committee really want to endorse an asset management strategy that appears to be calling the future of Battersea library into question and can the Cabinet Member please confirm that the administration has 0 intention I am of changing the purpose of that building and the library contained within it.
I think you're just going to say what he said before that we haven't made any decisions, it's precisely I'll say it again, the paper 23 4 0 9 is the asset management strategy, and that is what we we are discussing it, and you are being asked to make a decision about.
any item in the CIPFA report I am not aware of any plans to dispose of or do anything else with Battersea library, it was not in this report, that's not your what you're being asked to make a decision about, OK, thank you very much, Councillor Hedges.
thank you Chair, I also have a question about the the Town Hall scheme master plan, that was described in the report that Peter Graham mentioned sorry the Councillor Graham mentioned.
the report states that it's gonna be paused, so basically I wanted to ask the Cabinet Member to explain why it's been paused and what the executive's intentions are, sorry, sorry, excuse me, that is not the town hall master plan isn't part of the discussion.
I met in the next year, so it is listed in the appendix, but without that information. Sorry, Mr Sharpe yeah, you had someone yeah, I do I think you know the the. The the report here is is clearly a report in front of you in terms of its recommendations in relation to East Sussex strategy. There is a there is a and action plan. Part of the action plan process and, as I said in the introduction to the paper, is that any decisions around the the Asset Strategy and the future of individual assets under the work stream will be subject to business case reviews, which will be discussed with members and and go through the service committee process in relation to the Wandsworth Town Hall project that currently forms part of the as of all of the assets strategy under the office, accommodation, work stream or, and those options are still under review. OK, thank you
Councillor Belton,
I think the minority parties playing games, you think they're playing games. Let's be precise about this. If we have an asset management strategy that didn't consider all assets and how all the assets of the Council were used, then we'd be criticised for not considering the totality of the Council's stock and considering whether the rightfully used we all know that that's what an asset mass management strategy is about. This is a paper about how we go about that and it will cover every single building in your beloved constituency and my beloved constituency. They'll all be considered to see if they are appropriate and apt for today's use. Now let's forget, you're playing around nonsense and actually just take a vote on whether accepting the strategy as it stands
thank you regard Councilof as children's sentences, 19, not say, was the worst selling it up, and you know perfectly well, I said it was a white rice hello strategy covers every problem, obviously last hours will have a big argument now and then JT,
as I said previously in previous committees, there is obviously an opportunity outside the room to have a big argument, I think that.
on that note, given that this has taken a while and actually actually I'm going to indulge myself, I had a question on this paper which hasn't been picked up and I am going to ask it what about the bridges, where do they come in terms of our asset management? I just want to know if they should be in or should be out the the, the the, the they're done from part of this property asset management strategy, which focuses generally on our our Council buildings. There will be that will fall under the responsibility for CCS and the highways department, and I am not sighted on it on any other work they are progressing well, OK, I hope, because I was just thinking and and Councillor Hedges will remember things that have come up about obviously bridges are very.
very, very big things right, Councillor Cohen, I'm gonna let you have one very, but if you mentioned that other paper that's it and then we would go for a vote.
you don't wanna we get through, will I've answered, it is actually on a separate point, and this committee, at its last meeting, considered the acquisition of a and assets and areas a house and Members on will remember discussing that one of the concerns raised by members of the committee at that meeting was that there was not a proper options paper set out with the different options of what could be done with that property and why the decision had been taken to acquire it and,
as part of this assets and assets strategy management strategy also needs to consider how those assets are governed, in my view, so can officers and the Cabinet Members please confirm that when we are taking decisions on whether to acquire or modify or dispose of an asset that this committee will see an options analysis,
that has been completed on those assets so that we can scrutinise why the decisions and the recommendations made on the management of assets have been taken, another housing property excuse me, Councillor Anne Bash Way.
I was.
I am just going to come in here, is we keep saying and I know sometimes things have to be, it is everything that we look at, I think if I Mr Sharpe, if you could correct me if I've got this wrong, is that all the properties and everything we do with them will be subject to work through the the relevant service stream and did you say you were looking at you'd be looking at business cases? I'm sure you said that my clock will probably remember if that was set
is that the case, that is correct okay and then right thank you, I know that if the cabinet members have anything else to add on that.
where appropriate, I thank you very much OK, I would like to move to a vote, that's fine, but I want to come back to the technical point Asos approved the contents of this report and the asset management strategy, if the report is the asset management strategy, how does that make even grammatical sense?
well, thank you for your comment, obviously at this moment, because there's a document that has Wandsworth council's logo on it, that says it's the asset management strategy almost a cell of children's centres, so if that's the asset management strategy that's what we're voting for, we've just gone through all that OK, Councillor, how does it does, how does he make sense, it doesn't make sense if the report is the Asset Management Strategy what is and doing in the middle of it?
it probably has this year sorry, what you're voting on Councillor Bolton, because I'm not sure what you're voting on OK, so if you're unclear that your voted on selling off children's centres, please go ahead.
so we are very clear, we're not.
this committee has been kept in the dark on the food of colours.
thank you, I do not expect to have to raise my voice because you all start arguing amongst yourselves right, so please desist.
OK, we will now move to a vote on the recommendations, your choice about what you would like to do, OK, so we've been asked to go for recommendation A to approve this paper at the the Asset Management Strategy and be to note the contents OK, do we need to take them in pay is as a
photographs.

7 Wandsworth Corporate Plan (WCP) Performance Report (Paper No.23-410)

7 Wandsworth Corporate Plan (WCP) Performance Report (Paper No.23-410)

right okay, all those in favour of the recommendations, please raise their hands high so we can count them 6 all those against this raise their hands for thank you and please note, the Chair did not cost about thank you, Councillors, OK, thank you Mr shot, thank you Mr Rugby, we're now looking going to look at.
the paper 23 4 10, the performance report.
sorry, the Corporate Plan and performance report, and I'm going to suggest we go straight to questions on this, are you?
Ms O'Connor and Mr Evans, you ready.
OK, questions, please.
Councillor Hedges.
I'm afraid Councillor Councillor Hedges has a question
you know, we don't hear in there aren't enough women on this committee and it's nice to hear from one even thank you Chair and I appreciate that, so I've got a question at.
so Page 2 8 5 and page 2 8 7 just wanted to draw your attention to the
the customer centre telephone service calls.
the KPI there, the worry in KPI that is below, and also.
the KPI on the on 2 8 7, which is process time for new claims down both of those issues.
the root cause appears to be the staffing now this is a systemic issue when we have a staffing issue, so I would like to know a bit more about that and what action has been taken to address this potential risk.
sorry, Chair, I will take that question because one of those indicators falls in my directorate, so you write Councillor hedges, staffing is a is is an issue particularly in these areas customer services is notoriously difficult to keep and re retain staff partly,
because of the kind of transient nature of the workforce, but also linking actually to the earlier point about the complexity of of contact, we get some really tricky tricky calls, and they're quite difficult to deal with, and staff sometimes find that quite difficult and quite a draining.
thing to have to deal with every day, so it is a very difficult area to work in, and the point about the processing of changing circumstances in council tax reduction claims was specifically linked in the in the narrative to the summer period and the the difficulties keeping up with with the changes over the summer.
ironically, the next paper, which is a council tax reduction scheme, as came to this committee back in September, will help to address that because it will simplify the process and it will mean that we don't have staff who need to process so many changes in circumstances, so I would expect that particular indicator to be directly affected by the revised CTS that we're going to discuss discuss next.
okay, Councillor Fraser.
thank you Chair, it was actually a link point to that one, and it's kind of just kind of relieved to hear that the kind of action has been taken against that, because I think colleagues around the table will recognise that actually it points to the fact that there are two officers on long-term sick leave at the moment and there are kind of crisis across the country at the moment in terms of lots of people off.
on sick leave, whether it be to do with anxiety, depression, and I can imagine that some of the issues that are dealt with over the the telephone are kind of. You know quite quite worrying in their nature, so I think just for us to recognise that the real people at the end of those dealing with this one and the impact on their health, because there is a crisis in the country at the moment about kind of people's health, whether it be kind of physical, mental or whatever, especially a kind of coming out of cost of living crisis, COVID and those long-term impact, so think just to kind of first to recognise the kind of people behind the figures as well. Thank you Chair, thank you very much. Councillor Fraser, Councillor Osborne,
yeah, so I I, I mean we're all homing in on these red splodge K P eyes, and obviously I share the concern, but am I right in thinking that actually the problem of staff retention is a national problem in local government and we're we're by no means the only council that that faces that kind of problem and therefore these kind of knock-on problems in the services provided and actually of all the councils in the country. We are one of those which, through a policy of bearing down on council tax, is in a position to try and
try and do something about about that that specific one that you know that you you refer to
yeah, so this is an issue that is definitely common in in London, you know, we are talking to our neighbours all the time and we're all trying to we're we're working across London, actually in some areas, to have very specific, targeted responses to this.
in terms of the Council's own response to the greater employer work stream within the change programme which you you discussed at the last committee really is gonna try and get to get to the heart of this one and come up with.
with ways of, first of all, getting people in which is part of the challenge with the customer centre is getting people to come and work for us, so getting people in.
making their lives more pleasant, whilst they're here, and you know supporting them with some of the tricky work that they do and and and and encouraging people to stay and have a career with us, so we hope that that will make a difference as best it can and a lot is being invested in that actually there's a lot of time effort and some really good ideas are coming out of it, so hopefully we'll start to see that kicking in
thank you, thank you.
yes, quickly Councillor ambush and then hopefully we'll move to a vote, I wanted to draw attention to three grit green splodges on page 2 8 6, so all to do with work match and they're very, very good figures and I just think we ought to congratulate Wych match for the training for the employment placement and securing job training.
it's.
OK.

8 Council Tax Reduction Scheme for 2024/25 (Paper No. 23-411)

8 Council Tax Reduction Scheme for 2024/25 (Paper No. 23-411)

thank you very much after the questions are, this report is just for information for the Executive, everyone agreed, brilliant OK we are now moving on to the council tax reduction paper now this is an update following the
the consultation I think we have.
so I just in view of the time we recognise that this is just bringing forward to the Committee the proposals have previously came here, we abstained before we will abstain again, but we don't feel the need on our side to ask any questions given it's a repeat to say if, for the purposes of expediting business there are no questions on the administration side we can just move on.
yeah, is it OK, she just you're gonna say a few words, I think we've got Alex Walls.
I am really interested to know why the minority party should abstain on council tax reduction and a is astonishing when I see what you mean by that ever recall. So there's 11,000, or is it 10 and a half thousand for an release of the poorest families in the borough being removed from the council tax burden, which I mean I have been famous in the past for occasionally be pushing it up and you're always opposed to it, and now we're moving 10 and a half thousand and you are abstaining. I hope that's in all your press releases all your leaflets that the Wandsworth Council Tories voted, add sorry failed to vote for the reduction in council tax for the poorest families in the borough. Let's have the recorded marvellous piece of filibustering and I will take the bait as Councillor Belsham well knows, we set out our reasons last time and why we felt that the scheme could be simpler and didn't have to operate in the in the banding model proposed.
we also noted last time that this Council, the Labour administration, inherited one of the most generous council tax reduction schemes in London, courtesy of the Conservative Council that have run once so for 44 years, as well as in the first place having one of the lowest Council taxes anyway equally helping those who suffer from a regressive tax so we feel no need to apologise, we are very proud of our record, I'm sorry but I've now had to waste time pointing it out as was exactly his intention but I'll leave it there right.
OK, thank you, I, Councillor Ireland, you had something to say and then I think we can move to a vote, okay, but I think that I just want to thank officers again for your work on this. The council tax reduction scheme is very important to us. It's it enables us to give direct financial support to households on low incomes, the most financially vulnerable. Now we did go further. Last year we topped up the scheme up to 150 pounds to some households and 10 and a half thousand of our households paid no council tax 0 council tax, and I don't think the cost of living crisis is over. I think there'll be are said the other day it wasn't over, didn't they, and you know we had a brief discussion about how you can determine whether it's over. Well, I guess it's when real household disposable income
returning to the level it was before the pandemic, and that's not expected to happen until 27 28 is it, so you know we need to help our residents and I don't think.
I think we've got the best scheme here, given the circumstances we'd like to be more generous, but we're very mindful of the financial crisis facing all councils.
OK, thank you very much count I, I wasn't going to ask a question put in Hywel because I'm intrigued by that no actually got Councillor Councillor Ireland has just said that the the administration's measure of when the cost of living crisis would be over is when the national average on disposable incomes returns are endorsed. That obviously one says an extreme outlier in terms of incomes and say, why is that national average appropriate? Yeah, I've got two lots of people 0 sorry, could you repeat what you actually said Councillor Outland, because I I didn't say that I don't think I need to repeat it. I was just make an observation that, in my personal opinion, I don't think the cost of living crisis is over, and that is why I feel that the council tax reduction scheme is so important to so many of our residents. OK, thank you why you raise something, you don't agree with them
thank you very much right.
OK yeah, I.
I am trying to chair this meeting and I am trying to get to moving to a vote just every okay, so can we vote on the
Councillor Trakl, excuse me, council tax reduction scheme.
issue new paragraph, yes, the recommendation in paragraph 2, I'm trying to were.
move my papers along because we've been going along quickly, that is that the Executive to recommend to the Council to revise the council tax reduction scheme for 24 25, OK those in favour, please raise their hands, nice and high, please.
those against.
and those abstaining, so I think that's 6 4 for abstaining, thank you.
I am going to observe Councillors.

9 Mid-Year Treasury Management Review 2023/24 (Paper No. 23-412)

9 Mid-Year Treasury Management Review 2023/24 (Paper No. 23-412)

I think that it was the role of Councillors, I am going to observe, as happened last time, around, about 10 o'clock, everyone gets a bit twitchy, can you just try and behave yourselves for another or for an hour, and it is nearly 10 o'clock now okay the next paper is the mid-year Treasury Management review.
GOSH paper 23 for 12, Ms Murray, would you like to just explain what the changes are for us, please?
thank you Chair now I will keep it brief, but I do need to point out a typo, which is very important, actually so there are two proposed changes to the Treasury Policy Statement in this paper, I won't go through the detail of the rest of the paper but if you turn to page 3 3 5 of the pack paragraph 3.2 point 5 sorry I could you speak right into the mic please?
per page page 335.
paragraph at the top paragraph 3.2 point 5
subsection A
that contains the first change and what we're doing here effectively, what we're trying to do is increase the the length of some of our investment, so a longer-term investment can often deliver a higher return, so obviously we live within the caveat of making sure when we continue to have liquidity, we think it's it's worth trying to get some longer term investments, so changing the maximum term of an investment from two years to three. The the type I need to point out, though, is that we are
proposing that this applies to in brackets with banks of local authorities, that should say with banks or local authorities.
so if we can just please note that amendment, because that's one of the proposals that the committee is recommending for approval, does that make sense, so we're talking about extending the length of term with banks or local authorities?
not the banks of local authorities.
so apologies for that, and then the second proposed changes in paragraph B again trying to get some longer-term investments in our portfolio, but tempering that with are a finite cap on the amount of investment that can be in that longer-term category, so ensuring liquidity.
OK, thank you very much other any questions on this one.
brilliant, let's move to a vote on the excellent.
OK, we now have item.

10 Infrastructure Funding Statement 2022/23 (Paper No. 23-413)

10 Infrastructure Funding Statement 2022/23 (Paper No. 23-413)

the next item is the infrastructure funding statement, which is an annual report that we have to produce.
I think Ms Cross is just going to say a very few words about this.
and then Will can move to a vote if everyone's happy to do so, as this is for information, I think.
the infrastructure funding statement is a statutory document and must be published on the council's website.
it's a statement of fact of income allocation and spend of the community infrastructure levy and section 1 0 6 planning obligations.
thank you very much, OK, everyone happy to move to vote.
Councillor Bolton, are you happy to move to vote for this, you've just got your hands on sentence, if, if it's not decision and it has to be published, why does it come to committee at all?
I don't know, and I think we can sort, I can be with the Angela.
it's just that.
I found this very clear and I've I've always struggled with this, but I thought this paper was very clear, thank you very much, OK, well, thank you very much OK, so what we've been asked to approve the recommendations in 2.

11 Write off of Irrecoverable Debts over £25,000 (Paper No. 23-414)

11 Write off of Irrecoverable Debts over £25,000 (Paper No. 23-414)

approved for publication and to delegate to Authority the republication of where modifications are required, agreed everyone agreed, excellent, OK, we now move on to paper.
23 4 14 which is irrecoverable debts.
and I don't know if this really needs an introduction, as it's a annual report, what do you think, Ms Murray?
so I I mean, I do think there are things that as officers we would like to make sure that committee yeah, so Ms Wilson's on Tokyo, very short from Ms Wilson, if that's OK and I'll try and yeah.
okay confirm, thank you Chair, I will try and be sure, but it's important to sort of that give some context to the paper, so as you say it is our earlier report it in previous years it was a closure report providing details of the debts written off under delegated authority.
and seeking approval to write off unrecoverable debts over the delegated limit of 25,000 the report this time round still covers this, but in recognising the impact of external factors such as the COVID pandemic and the cost of living crisis, on the Council's ability to progress and collect it.
the report has been extended to provide additional information, this includes comparative analysis of the year end debts, underlying background for different debt types, some information on the pressures on services and also the mitigating actions that teams are progressing to collect debts across the Council and hopefully that should help to provide some context around the number and value of debts written off and the reasons for doing so it's important to note that the debt write-offs are a last resort, we are there only done once the statutory billing and recovery process has been followed.
and or all that avenues for recovery have been exhausted, so the Port estates at 4.00.2000000 has been written off by the Director of Finance under delegated authority in 22 23, and that's detailed in the report service areas happy playing catch-up following the suspension of recovery action during the pandemic, as a lot of work is being undertaken in the last 18 months to review outstanding debts and to write off those that are deemed irrecoverable. We are getting that now to business as usual in terms of active recovery,
but the reality for most debt types. The year end balances have increased and the cost of living crisis will make it more of a challenge to collect debt going forward, and there's obviously a case careful balance for the Council and providing support to individuals, communities and businesses whilst see into maximise income collection through debt recovery and the report details some of the work already ongoing to prove how we do this. So in terms of the recommendations to the Committee, the report seeks approval to write off debts over and above the delegated limit. There are 11 debts to the value of just over 716,000 submitted for approval, and these are in Appendix 1 to 5 to this report. Happy to take questions
sorry, thank you very much, Mr. Wilson, just before we do that, I'd like to draw your attention to paragraph 24. There's a table with a number of accounts in it and I think this Wilson were correct in saying it says the total is 13,768 actually that one, it's not that many, it's 3,000. That's correct, so if you could just make sure the papers and it that was a typographical error in the paper after publication, OK, Councillor Cooney, you have a question
yes, thank you, Chairman.
I am looking at page 374, you can see that the the kind of year one debts are by from tenants has risen quite significantly indeed, last year it was at 7%, which is significantly more than seven times the amount that it was in 2020 21. Obviously we had a pandemic, obviously we had the cost of living crisis as well, but I do wonder if the executives are policies in addressing it in this area are actually making that making the problem worse so they put up our housing rents by 7%.
and now they sit in in in an environment where there is an increase in deaths and we're struggling to recover them, so would it not have been better to just simply not put the rents up in the first phase not have an increase in irrecoverable debt and have a much more efficiently run Council? I was wondering if the Cabinet Member and perhaps officers could respond to that okay or Ms Mary would like to go for this yeah, thank you. Thank you for the question. I mean ultimately,
the Council's housing stock relies on rental income to keep it in good order and to manage it, and you know the capital investment that the council has plans for relies on that funding, so any decision to raise rents has to be taken in the round and you know that is why the decision that was made,
the last February wi a January, sorry, was done.
taking all matters into account that the the rent increase was below inflation is a below inflation increase, but it was considered in the best interests overall of continuing with the the housing stock and its maintenance and management to to to levy that rent increase, of course those low income households who are on benefits would have seen an increase in their benefits or to compensate one of the things we have done with.
rent, rent, debt and arrears in particular, is we've got a significant number now of longer term repayment plans and we're working really intensively with tenants to make sure that those that engage with those you know, I'll give them the support that they need to bring their rent accounts under control that doesn't necessarily mean into balance, but it does mean under control and and really the messages that if tenants engage with us we can help and we do help. So hopefully that gives some reassurance that whilst it's obvious that the debts are going to get higher, you know
freezing rents is not is not something that we can do every year, we you know just because rent rent debt is going up, we have to think about the other interventions that we can put into place as a balanced approach to overall maintenance of the stock.
thank you.
o
sorry, she's given sorry, I've just been alerted to Mr Wilson, had a hand up anything short to add Ms Wilson j, just to add that we've been using the data on the low income family tracker to do some targeted, proactive work with,
a households who are in in debt, with their housing rent, to try and help encourage them to to.
go on payment plans, but also to help looking at if there's any other benefits they could be entitled to that they're not currently claiming so much more proactive work, but really important is how we're using the lift data to help us do that OK, thank you for that.
K
is that a question, because you've got hand for question, OK?
with no right, that's it okay, quick questionnaire, yes, what I'd say.
the first point was on page 3 7 4, which is this table 16 this this is not the council's tenants, this is temporary accommodation, debt and it it does show both the sheer increase in the amount of rent being raised, but then also the percentage of total debt rising at an even faster rate than the levels of rent themselves, so we've gone from a position where there was nothing 5 years ago and less than a million last year to nearly 2 million this year and the percentage rate going up from very low figures to 7% so excuse me what was the Page K 3 7 4 table 16 sorry 3 s page 3 7 4 of the pack thank you.
a table 16 paragraph 66, so the direction of travel in that table is quite alarming, and I wondered what officers are doing to address that direction as it's currently headed.
we are all so I'll take that, thank you Chair, so the particularly high figure in 22 23 is directly linked to the everybody in initiative that was put in place by the government during COVID. That meant that we took in an awful, an awful lot of rough sleepers who were in no position to contribute to their rent often with no recourse to public funds, so this is ultimately the kind of tail end of of that initiative, so that does mean that I don't expect those figures to continue that level. I think we had a as a
a significant bulge linked very clearly to a very specific issue and that shouldn't continue at that level going forward, that doesn't mean to say that we won't see, you know, continuing write-off of debt in this area or in fact, as you say debt raised going up and arrears going up because I think we will by the very nature of the crisis the cost of living crisis and the pressure on homelessness but that I think is a one-off.
bulge linked to a temporary position that meant our arrears rose unnaturally OK, thank you very much.
Councillor Belton
sorry is that I I was just being followed up, I I can understand that, but I do actually have a question related to what you just said, so page 387 talks about the case of Mr. G M.
who was kept in accommodation whilst this legal status was investigated the period for which he was kept in accommodation, while that was investigated, racked up 27,984 pounds and 94 pence worth of of rent, how long did it take to investigate his legal status because that sounds like it was taking month after month after month, surely that is something that should be not no investigation should be undertaken rapidly in order to avoid that liability.
I don't know the answer to that one and I will take that away and and find out OK, thank you, Councillor Belton.
he in the 2 million increase but count the Councillor.
yeah, I'm pointed out and good for him that 2 million increase comes from national policy, have the, as the housing no revenue account, that to take the hit for it, or does it get or has government paid for it or have the su GRI buying for it?
and so on, in relation to temporary accommodation, these are general fund debts, certainly not not the hit isn't being taken by the government or the HA, but by the Council's General Fund.
we did receive some funding from government for homelessness initiatives so effectively I think this would probably be seen as a kind of an offset of some of that but yeah, any any write-off in this area falls to the general fund. OK, thank you very much OK I didn't seem to any more questions. Can we move to a vote on the recommendations in paragraph 2? Sorry, I I just want to explain just for does Claire we're going to abstain on this because
we're not happy with some of these write-offs, I haven't got here, but we we don't have the time to question them in the detail that we would need in order to resolve our doubts I I just gave one example, so I'm just explaining our position, but thank you very much OK moving to a vote on the recommendations in paragraph 2.
all those in favour, please,
right 6, those against 0 and those abstaining for.

12 Proposed strategic Acquisition of the former Salvation Army Citadel situated at 9 Ram Street, SW18 1TJ (Paper No. 23-421)

12 Proposed strategic Acquisition of the former Salvation Army Citadel situated at 9 Ram Street, SW18 1TJ (Paper No. 23-421)

okay item 12 then, and the chairman cost about as usual right Item 12 I'm going to this is around the proposed strategic acquisition of the former Salvation Army, citadel at 9.00 Ryan Street paper 23 4 2 1
and what I'm going to say, and there is a golden Bargoed paper as well, on this 20 0 4 2 1, A now.
this this is were.
okay, right, I'm just gonna, say to everyone here is obviously this is, and there elements of the report that we would have to close the room for other elements in the Gulf paper.
we ideally we would not wish to do that and I'm hoping that everyone has been able to have their questions answered.
that would have related to the gold paper separately,
are there any questions on the general idea of what is in paper 12 or in this paper?
agreed, thank you very much and also thank you Councillors for me, making sure we didn't need to go into private session, yes.

13 Budget Variations (Paper No. 23-416)

13 Budget Variations (Paper No. 23-416)

OK item 13 is budget variations paper 23 4 1 6 I'm just trying to remember if there was going to be an introduction for that, I don't think so I think we will go straight to that paper, any questions on that paper.
I wish to abstain. But we don't have any questions are not. That's interesting, I don't think we can let them get away with that. Honestly, I don't know, I mean, are they have to say, did they vote against the did? They abstain on these items in Committee or are they trying to do one typical Tory trick? I've seen a million times about voting for the principle and not for the money I mean come on. Let's be brutally honest about it, you have to vote for or against in line with what you did in Committee on these budget variations. Are we to do that? We would have to take each of these lines, Alan Laurie, on a note of more than 3 here, which would take some time. As you know, we don't agree with everything that was in the cost of living update paper, for example, which is 1.5 million there. We do not agree with the way the US scheme, the set-up on other things we haven't announced actually, we haven't endorsed everything you have to be outstanding overall, and we are worsening within our rights. You do say, as the opposition did when it went about the administration, when it was in opposition did many times OK, thank you very much, thank you for your intervention there. Councillor Belton pleasure, okay
I thought it might be okay we we then go to ask the the recommendations, are in paragraph 2 to prove the
general Fund variations.
and to approve the housing revenue account variations, who is in favour of those recommendations?
that six, if I got six hands up or we getting tired and hands up.
o
OK those against.

14 SO83(A) - F20 & H25 Contract Direct Award Citizens Advice Wandsworth (CAW) and South West London St George's Mental Health Trust (Paper No. 23-415)

14 SO83(A) - F20 & H25 Contract Direct Award Citizens Advice Wandsworth (CAW) and South West London St George's Mental Health Trust (Paper No. 23-415)

and those abstaining right, OK, excellent, we now come to.
item 14, which was
the ESA 83 at ESSA 83, which has which are the opposition speaker, has asked us to.
I asked to be brought to this committee, I'm going to suggest you have a minute to explain the paper and then we will deal with questions what I didn't want to were or what yes or yet I I didn't want this to have to be here. I asked for questions to the Assistant Chief Executive on 16th of October, the the same day that I got notification of this. I have yet to get answers to more than one of those four questions, despite repeated requests to then referring they notice this committee and asking for those for questions to be addressed in the report you can see in paragraph 3. It notes that I've asked for this report to address a number of matters
and then it doesn't answer the questions, it is absurd that I have now been pursuing answers to some basic factual questions since the middle of October I've had to refer this matter to this committee to try to get answers, I've still only got answers to one of the four on Monday night when we had our pre meet, I was assured again by the Assistant Chief Executive that I would have questions to all four of our answers to all four of my questions tomorrow I on Tuesday
he gave a verbal assurance, and I asked that the the answers be circulated the whole committee, so that everyone could see the information and hope that meant we would not have to discuss it. Nothing came on Tuesday on Wednesday evening yesterday evening I got a
mail, not from the Assistant Chief Executive, but from the monitoring officer, which was helpful and as far as it went as it clarified that the Council has indeed, as we have consistently been arguing, broken the law when it comes to the regulations on the publicity for key decisions. However, 3 3 of those questions, the ones that had been promised would be answered haven't or have not been addressed, and I have no idea if I asked him now whether I'm going to get any answers now, on the grounds that at every turn this has been blocked, it is not appropriate, it is not fair on this committee to have to have it come here at all to get answers, it is not in accordance with the protocol on officer member relations which says that officers should provide good and timely information to assist members in conducting their duties and I think frankly is disgraceful.
right, thank you for your comments, I'm just going to ask sorry.
obviously this came to Mr Evans, I just wondered if you had anything that you were.
just to be clear about the position on this.
I think I just refer Councillor Graham, to the response to Mr tragedy made there where we.
it acknowledged, as Ms Choudhry said, that one benefit of hindsight.
and we could have made more more effort, could have been made to give assurance to the provider in terms of citizens, advice or any attempt to the Council to make the award, and we could have used the application of the general exemption to allow publication of proposed decision five days before it's taken, but I maintain actually we took the decision in good faith and actually awarded that contract to citizens advice as quickly as possible gave him certainty of one of our key providers and advanced in the borough, so I refer Councillor Gruen to the answer, the benefit of the committee. My first question, which I asked on the 16th of October, was why this key decision was only anticipated
within the last 28 days, not earlier, and why did not appear on the Council's Forward Plan, I have not had an answer to that question, have I missed Stephens?
OK.
thank you.
I was given a verbal assurance by Mr. Evans on on Monday that I haven't have answers, and indeed every member of this committee would have answers to my full questions on Tuesday we've got to the meeting and he can't even answer it verbally now.
with notice on the 16th of October, I would like to ask the Chief Executive whether he feels the officer member protocol on the reprovision of timely quality information to members is being kept.
I'm before, would you like to say at first, I've just got to comments from April from my side as well, do you want to?
would you like to respond to this subject? So I mean I don't want to put words into John's mouth, but I think I think the position is the response from Mr. Choudhry effectively covers the questions in the sense that we're recognising that it could have been handled differently and with the benefit of hindsight. You know it, it would have done and that information would have been yeah. The decision would have been made in a different way and that one, and that's the answer I think you are being given ask basic factual questions, three of which have not been answered and were not addressed in ways I've set out in my response to Mr. Choudhry within an hour of him, sending that e-mail, and I do not blame Mr. Choudhry for this because Mr Choudhry is the monitoring officer. He is not responsible for the operational decisions that would take light
I I've actually had a hand up from Councillor Fraser and from Councillor Osborne yeah Councillor Fraser.
yeah, I just want to jump in because I think it's actually really highly inappropriate. The way you are talking to officers really took your politics as say what you like to us, as the elected officials don't talk to our officers like that. I'm not surprised that you know you in the way that you are asking these questions, that an officer would be it, you know why do that to them, because this is not what they come in for it. Throw what you like at us, but don't treat our officers in the way that you are talking to them right now. It's frankly appalling. I have asked this question. I don't mind
the way that you are behaving is respectfully, I cannot referred to the committee, the e-mail chain, in which I basically respect Councillor Graham and Councillor Price, have not been given answers.
I actually have in front of me a copy of the officer member protocol because I've noticed this I will say before I appreciate that there were you are some quite detailed questions, I've been copied in thank you for letting me do that, however, as Chair of Committee my view is,
it may not be the answer you want,
but the officers have said what they did in terms of they thought they were doing the work you know they, they realised it could have been handled slightly differently, obviously things do go wrong, and I would just suggest that in terms of the way we deal with our officers,
I think Councillor Fraser raises a good point, so I think perhaps at this point we agree that this could have been handled differently and move on if that's acceptable.
OK yeah.
right.
up Councillor Marsh, in your own words, for the general benefit.

15 Report by the Opposition Speaker for Finance on Senior Management Changes (Paper No. 23-428)

15 Report by the Opposition Speaker for Finance on Senior Management Changes (Paper No. 23-428)

no, I just know we're closing it now, okay, and then that moves us on to paper 23 4 2 8, which has also come from the opposition speaker.
what I think would you like to well, actually, I think what I might do is I might like to ask Mr. Jackson.
if you could.
share with the committee, what you shared with us and 0, by the way, remember this is an exempt, there is an exempt paper attached to this, so we have to be careful about what we talked about.
sorry, I just received 0 sorry, is this account pattern, it's the Councillor, gonna put his paper first or is it just photos anyway, yeah yeah, do you want to say something first, yes, and I'll if, if members wish to you, I'm I'm happy to go into closed session so that we can discuss it without reservation. Essentially I I've brought this here because I felt that it was information that this Council
and indeed, Members of this Committee should have seen when we were considering the change programme at the last meeting.
one of our complaints is as Members on your side will recall, was that there wasn't enough detail? This actually provides some of the detail. This was detailed that was available before we, we actually got to that meeting, it was, it was available in August and we weren't given it, and it would arguably have actually strengthened the case for what you wish to propose if, if it had been so, I have concerns that it was not did not come to this committee. I have concerns technical concerns about the restrictions and I do think that we need clarity in some form on when the reasons given to exempt the papers are, as here
I apply and when they do not because from the answers I've had and I I I have struggled to keep up with the responses I've got on this and I don't expect that many members of the Committee will will want to try to keep up with it but it's not clear and it should be clear it should be obvious when this replies but it doesn't.
and then, though, there are a couple of points around both the the points in the solace report, which is what didn't come to this committee and was exempted that raised wider issues about the data culture in the Council.
and a specific points around Electoral Services, where the reporting lines to the Head of Electoral Services will change and indeed moved into a temporary role, which, to me, does not seem to be appropriate and indeed is not providing continuity, even though that was the justification that was given, so that's basically why I brought it here because, as I hope everyone will accept it if there is interesting information here which provides context that I would have thought that the administration would have wanted to give us to support the change programme which is a cross to councils but which it backs,
we didn't get it and frankly we should have done.
OK thanks very much.
so on the on the on the specific question, Councillor Grimes, raising about the exempt solace paper it wasn't brought as part of the change programme paper in October, because officers haven't considered it, yet we commissioned Solace to do a particular piece of work that was mainly focused on the capacity we needed to lead on.
the change programme, which they did in doing that piece of work, they made a series of other observations and recommendations, and the Directors Board has yet to consider any of those recommendations, we made a conscious and explicit decision to leave that until we had pointed the senior leaders that are identified.
in the paper that went to the joint staffing committee, the paper was shared with the joint staffing committee on an exempt basis because the teeth the the Directors Board hadn't considered there, it has some potentially far reaching implications for services and staff who are not yet aware of those comments and it wouldn't be sensible for them to be made aware of them because there's an officer group we haven't considered them and we don't yet know which of them we'd want to proceed with and those that we wouldn't. It would not be helpful in any way for the organisation for those to be shared out of context and before the director's borders considered them. So that's why it didn't come in October because they don't form part of the change programme consideration, yet the the specific recommendations around senior staffing changes is is the part of it that we've considered so far and that was used to inform the joint staffing committee it. If, if I may, I would just also like to remind the committee that the proposals that went to the Joint staffing committee have been flagged very clearly
on two previous occasions and to the Committee, so in July we bought the report from the peer review, which has a very clear recommendation around the need to invest in senior management capacity in this area, and the committee agreed to explicit recommendations to do that and to commission the piece of consultancy work that Solace went on to do and then, when we did update the committee on progress at your October meeting, the report made very clear that, on the back of the piece of solid work, so we refer to the fact that the work had been completed and that we had used that to make proposals on senior management changes which are clearly outlined in the report, including the budget implications of that and that a report would be going to the joint staffing committee in October. So as far as I'm concerned, it was very clearly flagged and trailed to this committee and the specific proposals for ones relating to senior management changes which were relevant once went to the appropriate committee to consider them and it it was not appropriate to bring the solace report to the Committee in October, because the Directors Board haven't considered it, and we've not taken a view on any of the recommendations other than the ones relating specifically to senior management changes
I didn't spot who had that and up first whether it was Councillor Belton I.
OK yeah.
I am grateful to Councillor Belsen for that,
so first of all, it could have been brought to this committee as an exempt paper, let's let's leave aside the exemption for the moment, although I or the there are previous examples where exactly the same considerations have applied and papers were brought to housing, to adults, to to to other committees or similar levels of detail during consultations with the unions.
I I don't, and I genuinely don't understand the inconsistency and I think even officers would have to accept there is inconsistency in the exemptions that have been applied, but it could have been brought to this committee as an exempt paper, the chief executive has just said it wouldn't have been appropriate for it to come here before he'd been considered by the decision maker as well.
everything that comes to this committee is for consideration before it goes to decision makers. The whole principle of our pre-decision scrutiny is that we look at decisions before they go to the Executive for a decision now all matters that relate to both councils. The joint staffing committee in effect takes the place of the Executive. That is no reason to suddenly turn that principle on its head and say that it shouldn't come to committee until after that has happened, and I would simply say to members read that report and then say it wasn't relevant to what we were looking at the last committee meeting because it found seemed very, very relevant to me and it answered many of the questions that we were asking now. I don't want to go over trail over the past in terms of what did or did not happen for that last meeting, but I think that the principle that stuff of this significance should come to committee is important and I think clarity on those exemptions is again important.
yes.
so.
I was not referring to decisions in the solace report regarding anything other than the specific staffing changes, so it's not that the committee didn't get the chance to look at wider decisions regarding policy on organisational development, on digital. They're on. There are as yet no proposals, the Directors Board have not considered them. We've not made proposals to the Executive or anyone else, that's why it wasn't brought it wasn't appropriate, and wasn't wasn't it hasn't been considered? There are no proposals. The specific proposals that the report have been used to inform are the ones around senior management changes, and those proposals went to the appropriate decision maker, which is the joint staffing committee, which is not part of the Executive, is a cross-party cross council committee set up for the specific purpose of considering
senior management changes, and that's where the recommendations went, so I'm I'm aware, I'm aware it's not possibly so Graham, but can't scribe right one moment this is technical stuff now.
okay, right, the guillotine has now fallen because we'd been sitting for three hours and we will consider the remainder of the agenda as follows, and we're in the middle of the debate on this item we can continue our debate on this item for a maximum of 10 minutes after which time we will vote and I say a maximum of 10 minutes OK, yeah, that's fine and we can carry on from here and which of us is running the clock.
think of if I just come back in on that point, I I am not disputing that the joint staff and committee decision maker, the reason it is, is because it's something that relates to both borrowers in this way, and that's the asset that's where the SSA agreement determined, however, the precedent,
housing at this committee are adults, and other committees was always to bring details of staff reorganisation before they were decided, now you can say, and you'd be right, that nothing in the agreement and nothing in the rules says that that should happen, but that was the convention.
and I think that the Committee ought to be aware that convention is being broken and likewise,
the fact that that did happen in the past in public, with all the information published, makes there a clear case for there being clarity on when exemptions will be applied, and when they weren't sorry, Councillor Belton,
Gary gibberish reassured Mr Jackson that in the decisions made by the joint staff, the j esa
we're effectively the top level confirmation of what we agreed in October.
thank you.
not sure I quite understand the question, so just just let me restate what I was saying if you and I've got the I've actually got the extract from the committee paper with me, but what I was referring to as it is in
the 5th of October Finance Committee report 23 3 18 the point I was making is it clearly flagged the intention to seek Jersey approval to create a new Chief Officer level posts. It refers to the Solace review and that says following that review, a short consultancy exercise has been undertaken, which has now recommended some specific changes at Director and Assistant Director level. These changes are now the subject of a staff consultation process and a report will be taken to the next joint staffing committee in October. The cost of these posts will be shared with Richmond on an appropriate, proportionate allocation. Any initial costs in the current year will be funded within existing approved budgets, but it will require additional funding of 235,000 in a full year from 2024 25. So the point I'm making is that the report to you in October made very clear that we've had the solid work done. It had made recommendations, it impacted on Director and Assistant Director level posts, we gave an indication of the budget that would be necessary to approve those and that those proposals were going to the joint staffing committee in October, which, in my view, is the appropriate committee to take those decisions. So my point is, it was made very clear to the committee in October exactly what was happening and the joint staffing committee had those proposals to consider sort of quite just sort of take on. OK, I'm gonna have myself for Madonna now the way I read that
it's slightly different from the way Councillor Graham reads it, and that is understandable and in this situation, but our way, I read that we agreed in principle the October meeting and passed it forward to the joint staff. DJs are in many ways sit rather similar to the way we pass things something through to the Executive and therefore it's the one that's inevitably gonna be the case. Saying is joint between as enrichment. We can remember because jumping backwards and forwards what I think is understandable is, I don't think this has happened too many times before, and obviously it didn't fit the council structure before we had a joint
the ECJ's I in this format, so I don't think there's any,
implication here, but anyone who has done anything wrong in any kind of sense, we're just procedurally a little bit behind what's going on is my reading of it now, I'm not putting that very well, but I think that we should accept it as it stands and get on with it.
sorry, yeah, a council's board, had his hand up, Councillor Osborne, yes, I think everyone agrees the principle that as much as possible should be brought to this, this committee for for scrutiny, but it's also clear from what the chief executive has said that that has been done, where it has been possible to do it, and we've seen everything that we were supposed to see it as it was available.
and as required one or two difficulties because of structure and the nature or nature of what's going on, but all done in good faith and or or or and nothing untoward has taken place here, in other words, Councillor Graham has got his facts wrong, he's got them badly wrong, he's exposed his party to ridicule in this committee then hung them out to dry because he's got it completely wrong.
there are no paragraph in my report is incorrect and should never have been allowed to put the papers that are also on which paragraph or which sentence, or any statement in my report is incorrect name one gives us a paragraph list number and say what's incorrect.
so there's nothing wrong, you just rhetoric.
sorry, excuse it, Councillor Osborne.
but you need to decide which of you is my question very quickly, yeah, the guillotine is gonna hit, I know I've got a proposal that I think Councillor Osborne has just revealed, you were going to kill this paper, no matter what, but my question was this, I think there is an inconsistency of approach, I don't think what Mr Jackson has done is indefensible or anything I don't think the issue here is the propriety of what happened from my perspective, what, from my perspective, I think the position is unclear.
and I thought when I read this paper and I haven't had sight of this paper.
is the protocol will protect officers, because it just simply sets out what the position is, and the paper doesn't set out the proper protocol. The paper asks general purposes to investigate the protocol, so passing the paper would mean that actually officers could write their protocol and bring it to general purposes, and I thought that I mean I I thought that was a very pragmatic and sensible way of
going forward and it would do away with any concerns
of the type that Councillor Graham has raised, being brought again to Committee because there'd be a clear protocol.
Councillor Graham, you had something to say, I don't want a prolonged, if I, I agree with exactly what Councillor Mrs. Agenda said, that was my intention. I wasn't accusing anyone of doing something wrong or improper or not acting in good faith. I'm saying there is evident inconsistency in the approach, Councillor previous staffing, reorganisation and the approach from exemptions and to what comes to committee and doesn't I've just asked for the exemption to be looked at by general purposes, as has been said, for officers to come forward with a proposal as to what that is not what it should be
OK, thank you, do you feel you need to say anything more come now?
right
I'm gonna say something on this paper.
one of the things that actually a couple of us have discussed is that actually some of the stuff around exemptions is quite difficult, and therefore I would say I would not necessarily be minded to be able to draft something like that what I will say, though, is that,
the information and and I also now you understand the whole business with the shared staffing, because it is complicated, previous reorganisation that we've seen have been handled within our own structures, and there are some areas of this Council that have their own structures.
my question, which is why I am sorry what I would also say is, I found the contents of the report very interesting and I think all of the committee found that interesting, even if it was something that wasn't expected to be put to us, so my question would be, hopefully is, will we at some point perhaps in February be able to have an update on that, because we were very interested in what was there and it was several of us were very interested, so not in not in February, because the intention is that it's a report for the person once in post I was able to consider on our behalf. One of our issues is we we need someone with the kind of you know, the the capability to consider that and decide what the best way forward is is is is for the Council, so the reason why the Directors Board has not considered it is because we are waiting for the appointment that the report relates to. We would then give it to them as part of the evidence base and ask them to consider it in in how best to take the Council forward, so my intention is that it would come once we made an appointment, someone had a chance to consider it, and they would then help us bring forward proposals that could clearly come to this committee once that has been done but not in February we won't have made an appointment by then, well we may have made an appointment where there might be someone in post.
OK I mean, is that something and I've got 30 seconds, is that's something that's also acceptable? I'm grateful for that and likewise, if if I would accept even if there's not a protocol, just a paper coming to general purposes, setting out when this Council will apply these exemptions on individuals and when they weren't, if we just were, there is no clarity, I can't understand the or any consistent thread through this or what principles are being applied on when we should and shouldn't do that, and I've been looking at this enough to write the paper, so I really do feel this ought to be set out and, as has been noted, that would actually protect officers by giving a clear and endorsed basis on which that should happen. OK, thank you
I mean.
we just et cetera, yeah.
yeah, he's gonna do three.
sorry, OK, I'm sorry, I've now got, I've just been told.
the meeting has now finished.
when you can have a vote, we will do, we want to have a vote on the recommendation that appears in two in this paper.
yeah yeah.
no, it's general purposes.
so it's no, it's paragraph 2, isn't it?
paragraph 1 paragraph paragraph 1,
sorry, hang on.
right okay, so the Finance Committee is recommended to support the recommendations in paragraph 2, which is to talk about having a a recommend, the Council for a protocol and exempt organise a on are exempt information, apologies everybody, so what we need to do is we need to consider we need to vote on.
just one, I've been told OK, so those in favour of paragraph 1, please raise their hands, that's for, thank you.
those against paragraph 1.
6. Thank you, the Chair didn't cast vote OK, thanks very much, actually I will say thank you, Councillor Graham, for drawing us art, our attention to this and hopefully I will be thinking we will not be in a similar position in the future and Councillors. Thank you all and and can I say one more thing actually,
you've seen it, SI 83 on the Borough of culture has gone through, so we're very, I would just say, congratulations to all the officers, but that's often the meetings ended that that's happened, thank you.