Audit Committee - Wednesday 15 November 2023, 7:30pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting
Audit Committee
Wednesday, 15th November 2023 at 7:30pm
Speaking:
An agenda has not been published for this meeting.
Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.
good evening, good evening and welcome to this meeting of the Audit Committee, I am Councillor Norman Marshall, Deputy Chair of the Committee.
unfortunately, Councillor Paul has got covered and sends her apologies are Members happy for me to take the Chair, thank you
yeah, I'd like to start actually by welcoming well, we've we've we've appointed two independent members on the committee.
Vanessa de Souza and Ylva, Faina Kanye, and I would say that Councillor Hedges and I are very, very much enjoyed the interview process which we are and are Co, Mr Jackson, there's also the sorry, I beg your pardon Andrew sorry, you were the nice Minister and if anybody else was no, I think are our note-taker has now left.
but it was a great pleasure interviewing you were very pleased that you accepted.
unfortunately Vanessa can't be here, but we're very pleased indeed to see you here, perhaps you could just introduce yourself to confirm that you are present, thank you very much, sir, you have referred to Nakano and present I've got 12 years of worded experience I wish you well for you why so my background is mainly in finance now my finance director so really keen to contribute as managers again with my finance background.
while we're looking forward to that very much, and so now, if I go to the normal routine and ask or other members of the Committee to ask them to turn their microphones on and confirm their present Councillor Caddy.
good evening.
Councillor Crichel.
hello.
and Councillor Hedges.
Good evening, thank you Chair.
and there were we also have a number of other guests here this evening are all very welcome at a number of officers that they'll be introducing themselves when we get round to speaking to them.
so, to start with declarations of interest, do any members of the Committee wish to declare an interest in any items on the agenda?
are the minutes from our last meeting, 12th of July 2023 are Members happy for me to sign the minutes of the previous meeting as a correct records?
thank you, and I will do that in due course if.
there is.
thank you.
so to the business of the evening, I now invite officers, along with our external auditors.
we welcome, Janet Dawson and Tom Wilkins are here today, from Ernst and Young.
and Catherine Baston will introduce the paper on the external Audit report for 2021 and 2021 22, thank you, Catherine thank you Chair evening councillors, Catherine Burton Assistant Director Finance.
just a brief introduction of this paper, the good news is that we've now completed the 2020 21 audit and issued and auditors have issued an unqualified opinion for the accounts, I'd like to thank my team, in particular, for working closely with the auditors to get that over the line.
Work on the 2021 22 accounts is still ongoing, but we are in the final stages of completion again we're expecting an unqualified opinion on the accounts, and colleagues from E Y, as you mentioned, are here to assist with any questions on that.
we already have approved delegated authority to finalise those accounts from a previous meeting of this Committee.
so in terms of 2022 23, the accounts were published in June, but work has yet to start on the audit, the paper outlines the detail around that and the initial value for money work will start as soon as 21 22 is complete, but the substantive work which is awaiting guidance from government around any potential changes to the audit scope to tackle the audit backlog that we've seen in previous papers and is outlined again here.
that guidance has been promised numerous times, but we are still awaiting that e y can update on that, the final section of the report outlines the external audit fees which are set by the public Sector Audit appointments framework, which reflect an increase from actually 87 ground 326 for the scale fee for 23 24 onwards,
whilst obviously this is.
disappointing for us, it's under the new framework of the PCA, and we have little choice, and we've responded strongly to the consultations around the fee increases.
I am happy to take any questions.
thank you very much for any questions.
Councillor Pritchard and then Councillor Hedges OK, thank you, thank you, Mr Baston and Ann, and the team I know this has been a very, very long process, my first question is actually about the the timings for the next audit because you've got
I mean, I suppose first of all is is 21 22 going to take less time, particularly from the staff than the previous years, so how do you see that going because because it's been so long instead of finishing the audit when you would expect it obviously it's taken a little longer and I'd also be interested in any timings for the we've got time is for the 21 22 times the 22 23.
accounts when we think we might possibly have those available,
thank you Chair, so audit work for 21 22 is well under way and is hoped to be signed off by the end of the month, and I'll let colleagues from our external auditors explain a bit further and about next year's plans.
thank you, Janet Dawson, audit partner from Ernst and Young, so, as Catherine has said, the 21 22 audit is is nearing completion and so in terms of lead time will be much shorter than it took for the 2021 audit and if you remember their various issues that delayed us that were and not under our control all the Council's control in terms of a national infrastructure assets issue which delayed everybody by significant amount of time which then yeah rolled on into a number of other issues.
which meant that there was more work to be done and some delay on the 2021 accounts, so, as I say, 21 22, shorter lead time, overall or less less amount of time to deliver that audit 22 23 Catherine has mentioned that you were waiting for this guidance from the system leaders as they are colloquially known, so that is the Department for levelling up housing and can we communities,
also the financial reporting Council and then the National Audit Office, and they are working together to try to determine how to deal with the national backlog of up to 900 audits that are delayed across the English local government system and so,
there's there's a lot of work going on in the background they've been working at pace. They haven't been helped by the reshuffle on Monday, which means that we now have a different Minister from the one who had committed to moving this forward and solve it yeah, putting out a resolution for the backlog and then the way forward, but we are hopeful that that work will continue because actually a lot of it is taking place at the next level down within different organisations. So we were just just saying yeah, we asked going planning to start the value for money arrangements, work for the 22 23 Audit as soon as we've concluded the 21 22 audit
that's one element of our responsibilities and hopefully by then we will also have some clarity from the system, leaders as to whether they want the audits of 20 to 23 to be done, whether they want them to be done to a reduced scope or whether they want to put in place a backstop date, which means that you disclaim and move on so that we're actually focused on the information that is current and relevant to taxpayers as in the current year that you're in to report out 23 24 on a timely basis. So that's that's what's at stake and therefore, unfortunately, I can't give you any more clarity over when that announcement will come and then when we'll be able to move forward,
thank you, so if I got my head round this correctly, presumably if there happens to be one or if this isn't on the Government's key list of things to do.
we might end up with an election before you have a decision, or do you think that's not like, and actually I'm not trying to ascertain or possibly I'm just asking because?
yeah wow
if I said your guess is as good as nothing.
yeah, we are, we are working really closely with those other bodies, but it's within their gift and not within the audit providers gift yeah, we are modelling every possible option at this point, so if it is taken off the table, then we were, then we have to work within the environment that we're in. We will have to allocate our limited resources across the demand for audit delivery across our client portfolio, as will the other audit providers and the the delayed process across the whole system will continue for some time because there isn't enough supply of qualified specialist auditors
and there is there, similarly isn't enough supply within the finance functions of local authorities to deliver and support audits to cap, to double run, to catch up audit.
reporting, unfortunately, so that if nothing is done, we are potentially in a worse situation with the backlog growing rather than being improved.
we are hopeful because because, as I say, the the organisations in terms of the ENO, the FRC and and as we understand it, the officials within D-lock are all committed to moving this forward because they they see the value in current reporting as, as we all do,
Councillor Hedges.
thank you Chair, I've got a couple of questions for team Ernst and Young and thank you team council and but before I ask, I just wanted to welcome Ilva to our committee and look forward to working with you going forward.
so my first question is in terms of the the backlog of external audits.
how can you be sure that there isn't anything that material that might have fallen through the cracks? The reason why I am asking that, and I am conscious that there is a mention that we do have proper arrangements in place for the use of resources but given the new administration have a very ambitious spending plan, I would like further clarity on that, please and also my second question is in terms of the unqualified opinion
how is this determined and how can we get comfortable with this, please?
so if I take that the first point, so the the risk to the Council that nothing is falling through the cracks, we we continue to have our meetings across the Council, particularly with the Chief Executive and the Section 1 5 1 officer to understand,
what the overall governance arrangements look like what their financial planning looks like, whether there are transactions taking place, that we need to be aware of, that would have an impact on either our value for money arrangements, reporting or on the the financial reporting that you will be required to do of. You know the current period that we're in, so we are continually assessing that risk are certainly at senior level to determine whether there is anything that we identified that could affect our responsibilities and would then require us either to move into reporting under
our value for money, arrangements which which actually are set so that, if there is a risk of significant weakness for the organisation, we have to take action at that point, not wait until we're completing the audit.
so that should give you some comfort that we are continuing to stay current with what the organisation is planning at a high level.
so one, and in terms of given that we are close to finalising 21 22 and and we are having those conversations, we are actually aware of what should be coming through in your 22 23 account, so I am relatively confident that there hasn't been anything so significant that also erroneous that hasn't been brought to your attention or that we wouldn't be aware of as auditors and looking at in terms of an unqualified opinion, so that is the basis on which we have planned our work. We carry out our work in accordance with international standards of auditing and is set out by the FSC in terms of the standards to which we, we need to order it so
that that might be a and offline conversation that could take us several hours in terms of how that is all built up, what we're required to look at and then how we judge that there is no material error in the financial statements that are being reported, that would affect the reader's understanding of the financial position of the organisation, but I am more than happy to to give you much more detail on that that's sort of our life's work so you'll be able to talk you through that if if that would be helpful,
Councillor Kirby.
thank you very much, Chair, I'm not going to reproduce the comments that I've made many times about my frustration about the situation that we find ourselves in. It's totally unacceptable and, as an audit committee were sitting here, unable to use appropriate reports and an audit judgements to be able to to give ourselves reassurance that the financial position of the Council is as it says, it is, and it's deeply deeply frustrating. I guess, moving on from that, obviously I take some reassurance from what Ernst and Young have just just said, and I guess a question perhaps for Mr Julio t is, is there anything else that any other councils are doing to, or any other Audit Committees are doing to kind of give themselves reassurance where we you know we should have some, but we don't have any
yeah, I mean there's a different role for internal and external audit play, I mean, the coverage that we have in our audit plan should hopefully give you that additional comfort where you aren't necessarily getting it from the review on external audit, and that's why we do generally have a comprehensive plan to cover arrange in audits including key financial systems.
so that's where I'd say that if there is that additional assurance now clearly that's internal and having you know an external body, gives that enhanced review, and then I've got a paper later on today about looking at the effectiveness on a internal it would be this committee itself and that will hopefully give you some reassurance when that's carried out whether or not you're doing enough to drill down on those key sort of key issues and questions.
Councillor Critchley,
excuse me, thank you, yeah. I would probably echo what Councillor Caddy has said, because one of my comments around this is and actually it was also one of the chairs. Comments was Well, we're now getting information about 2021, so picking up trends is actually pretty difficult. It fell OK, yeah, what we're looking at, and it does my I, I would agree it makes things very difficult for us. The only thing I did wonder whether I should would be worth saying, and it's a question. Perhaps the Auditor is, of course our team and our processes are still the same, despite having a change of administration, and surely presumably the unqualified opinion gives rich should give some reassurance as long as if the team are fun. There's there's
the audit describes the transactions, but there must also be something around the way the team works, that the team's processes are in there and if the team is the same and the process is the same, then presumably we should also have some confidence to some confidence for ourselves that everything is as it should be and if the auditors and perhaps so Misperton would like to come in on that aspect of it.
so the auditors are required to look at the arrangements in place across the organisation for governance, financial resilience and using information to make decisions appropriately, which we've already discussed, and then to look at how those financial transactions are reported within the reporting framework and the auditing framework and you're absolutely right that we are focused on those arrangements that sit below the political environment and we are not.
year, it is not part of our remit to look at policy decisions, we are looking at how the organisation is then run in response to that, so so, as you say, hopefully that gives you summary assurance that we are looking at the organisation below the political environment and commenting on that.
can I ask a question to you, why please, so you said that you gonna start the value for money audit, but is there like a detailed audit timetable, if you are to indeed do the 22 23 or it, and will not take again my month, I'm expecting you to dropped like six months now the audit period of like nine months was there due to just.
unfortunately, the issues with COVID and infrastructure.
guidance, but is there a plan now to reduce the odd appearance it is there, a plan in general, if you are indeed May to do the audit?
so there isn't a specific plan for Wandsworth council at the moment, but if the scope of the audit remains the same, then we would work with officers to determine their availability, their ability to support the audit, the appropriate timing, how that dovetailed with the Audit Committee reporting schedules and subject to our resourcing plan matching up with the Council's availability and and clearly there's always going to be pressures on other responsibilities, other priorities, so as long as we could dovetail that you would expect to be able to run an audit within a six-month period absolutely,
thank you, so if there are no more comments or questions or members.
I spoke too soon to cut off Councillor Hedges.
Huckabee, I was just going to ask a couple of specifics. It was on paragraph 11 on the council, dwelling valuation, the adjusted difference, and I just wondered whether what I just wanted to confirm that we've now got systems and controls that were in place, that would make sure that those kind of errors wouldn't happen, because I'm slightly concerned that obviously are a duplication area or error amounting to 19 million was was able to take place, that it seems like what was a double line on a spreadsheet or and one would expect to have sort of inherent systems and controls in place to stop those kinds of mistakes being made, or at least
have them spotted, so I just wanted to reassure myself that.
thank you Councillor, absolutely so that was an error, I believe, from our values, thank you, yeah, so that was an error from our values, but we will have things in place to make sure that we are checking the information from our valuers, it's not not saying and we're passing the blame but that we have officers on our side that are checking those figures as well.
Councillor Hodges's mum's actually.
moreover, a question to Members here actually, because I note that in paragraph 20, there is a significant increase in fees which you've probably noticed, is an increase in fees by 150%.
are we happy with this, do we have a choice, I don't know if t me why want to comment on that?
thank you.
I can try and answer that and then pass to you, my colleagues, so the fees are set by PSA A and they are an independent body, and we have strongly responded to consultations around that, but they are set and we have very little choice, unfortunately on that.
as the
and when you say we, you've responded to consultations, is there like a body that will be the this, can be escalated to, because it to me it just seems incredibly high.
unfortunately, that is the PS, a who set the fees.
fossil called showed, thank you, I've got some questions actually on the detail of the accounts, but that's OK, the the first thing is more of a comment, and the question is.
these are the 2021 accounts.
it's too late to change the narrative about it, but please could I ask that for the 21 20 for the next set, as it's very clear that this is actually quite a long way out of date, so, for example, on risks and opportunities, on page 15 it said the latest review of key risks can be found here.
but I'm pretty sure it can't be because it looks like it's that's the the key risks that would have been applicable at the time of the audit, and I think that that's one of the problems with being you know it all being so retrospective is, is it so perhaps for a plea for the the next set is, would you be able to make sure that it's very clear how far we're looking back?
and then on some detail.
we're talking about the fairer funding review, I mean, that's been postponed, even more, hasn't it, because it said beyond 21 22 we're now towards the end of 23, and it still hasn't happened, I guess we don't think it's gonna it's probably unlikely to happen in this parliament is it?
thank you.
somebody else is going, your guess is good smile.
and in terms of the actual accounts we
presumably this is the COVID period.
we ended up with a fairly big surplus, I think, public at page 19 we didn't because we've got all that extra money and is that particularly all to do with COVID rather than?
the normal accounting set-up, so I'm sort of looking at this thinking.
these accounts are actually unbelievably late, and also they're looking at a period which is incredibly unusual in terms of the way the Council itself and government grants were operating, and I don't know if you've got any comments about the usefulness of this set of accounts given those things,
thank you, Councillor, so the detail on page 19 that you've referred to as the outturn position, which would have been reported to committees at this point in time, the June of that year, and that you're right there is a significant underspend on the detail of that was outlined in those papers.
in terms of the the narrative report, the accounts stand alone for the the year that they are in relation to so they have been published since the the within the deadlines of producing the draft accounts, and they've been published on our website since that date, just because the audit has taken some time to complete they are still.
a true record of the year that it is in relation to if that helps.
are you saying there's nothing we can do just to make that much clearer for anybody breeding about the delay that that's the sort of thing it was just what I was going back and can't possibly be the life's risk register, so these will publish what sure.
helping me 22 June 21, and that would have been correct at that time.
a last question, I think it's the last one this month.
was?
so we look like.
we are reserves increased by about 300 million, that's on page 25, during that that year, that correct yeah.
again, PR wasn't due to Covid.
again, you're testing my memory, so yes, the outline of that would have been in those outturn reports with details around reserve movements probably best to look back at those Finance Committee outturn papers from June of that year, but yes, in essence lots of COVID section 1 0 6
section 31 grant in relation to business grants offered to businesses in the Borough that transfer between years Cosham complications, with the accounting treatment of those.
Councillor Kelly,
thank you very much, Chair, I'm looking at page 205.
it's the summary of unadjusted differences.
and I've just wandered on the CIL ledger difference, obviously the differences about four or just over 4 million, which isn't isn't material and and isn't even adjusted, but as a percentage of the actual CIL ledger is that a fairly chunky amount and I just wanted to again really double check.
where that sort of error arose and whether we now have sort of controls in place to make sure that we're not having any of those differences.
sorry.
205 of the pack
just taking the time to take find the page.
Surrey, it's the summary of unadjusted differences and essentially it's there was this on the CIL ledger, there was a difference which looks like it was written off so gorgeous.
something in there, there is something on page 2 5 6, which I picked up as well, about recorded CIL debtors, the differences about 4.2.
yeah, so it's the same.
so I think, excuse me, Sam Tomkins, I'm the manager working on the audit with Ernst and Young, and so the Council included a civil balance of a debtor balance of 23.7 million in their accounts, so the 4 million is a fair chunk of that, obviously.
the the difference effectively worries, because the accounting records were different to that by 4 million pounds, and it's the simplest aspect, he said one number in the financial statements said another, so obviously there was a piece of work to and are undertaken to understand which of those was the correct figure.
and and that has resulted in the adjustments, so it is a position where the financial statements and the accounting records simply didn't agree.
it is a follow-up, I thought it would be a fairly chunky percentage of the overall figure, and I just wondered how, at a sort of error that big or difference that big has arisen.
so a lot of work has been done since then to.
review the balances between our papers and what is produced in the accounts, and I can reassure you that has now been taken forward and corrected for future years.
what was the what was the issue?
we got the detail, could I ask Ms Atta to answer, will come back to you if we don't have that here?
I'm Elsa Otto I'm Head of Accountancy with the specifics of forever, it will need to come back to you on that, I can send that to you.
sorry J might help there some additional detail in our report on page 1 7 8 of the pack and effectively it states, and again I just tested my memory slightly.
but when the Council was making, it were making a record of the ditherer mounts fossil debtors, they were recording adjustments to the income received and the debtor balance over a period of time on a spreadsheet, and that didn't always reconcile to what was on the general ledger, so I think it's a consistency point around making sure that the balances reconcile on the Council's electronic records for the the general ledger if you want to call it that and then the spreadsheet yourself.
Councillor Christian yeah, though just following up on that is again I mean firstly, may have the answer, but I presume, in terms of actual spend and how it affects us as a Council, we can only spend once the CIL,
receipts are in and I know there's always a bit of variation as to when they come and what what turns up and what happens, presumably the only thing is that we must be careful about not making plans for money we haven't had, we are, we don't think we've got yeah,
that's right, you're right, we only spend money once the cashes in, so there's no risk to.
the the spending of that CIL.
becomes 4 per week.
Friday 1, so question 4, via the finance they have we taken on board now, the recommendation from me why to ask why you were to use the net yield and align their technique with rakes instead of using the gross yield when valuing the property plant and equipment?
Will we will have discussed that with our values, but we will, we will make sure you thank you, OK, thank you.
for apologise for jumping the gun, all wounds considerably devoted to rehab, which holds me keen to cut off.
I suppose I would just wish to reforming whether, as highlighted during the appointment of Councillor Hedges, made, that we do have an ambitious spending programme and that these are very important controls here, and the point that Councillor Kelly made that it is extremely frustrating that not only are we as always steering by looking in the rear mirror, but now the arena is looking at a vanishing point on the horizon that makes it even less useful, and I think we just do as a committee to note that before we will do so, we do regard this with with with concern with grave concern, for we are grateful to the efforts of everybody, addressing what are probably factors beyond our control. Councillor Kelly, well, I just also wanted to say actually thank you to our Finance team, who I know have worked incredibly hard through any sort of a very difficult period and have done an excellent job. So I I think we should all acknowledge that
I very much agree that, because of the excellent point.
possibly the last one, page 2 6 4
infrastructure added assets have noticed something around recommendation in, should they have sufficient infrastructure and accounting to rip debt, demonstrate compliance with the codes, and I'm quite interested giving on Mr Sharpe knows what's likely to be coming.
finance about assets, I just wondered how these things relate with a possible.
possibilities what we might be seeing in the future about our asset strategy.
I think the Asset Strategy is obviously a separate piece of work for this and it focuses on our operational assets, I think the the the infrastructure assets that are referred to in thereof are separate.
is that correct Councillor?
thanks is a technical accounting entry, nothing to do nothing, no impact on our asset strategy.
right thank you very much, so can I ask them out if Members are happy to note the recommendations, A to D of paragraph 1 of the report?
thank you very much.
so now we move on to the internal audit, external quality assessment and I'd invite Mr DeLacy to introduce the paper.
thank you Chair, so you will note that obviously all internal audit function is and delivered by the south-west London Audit Partnership which comprises of five authorities, but it's actually hosted by a Richmond and Wandsworth the public sector internal audit standards set out the processes which we should and best practices which we should adhere to.
and within that we need an external assessment to to to review what we undertake every five years and what you see in the appendix here is is that review undertaken by regard, which is you know or a really nice and positive feedback and showing what the team does, it is in line with what at what is best practice as is typical when normally, when we now are on the receiving end of those really lovely positive comments that we get when the best outcome that you can get is generally conform.
you know, we used to we used to being the same and telling people that you know you are you know?
I, as normally substantially in alignment with assurances so, whilst generally record doesn't seem overly brilliant, that is the highest standard we could possibly achieve, you'll note that there is, if you look at the recommendations, even when the ones that are deemed too medium is terminology and papers so I was really pleased to find the report that came out there and demonstrated.
I you know where we are and where are and where we need to be, I've got Andrew, who heads up the service available here, there's any particular questions around how we operate and what we do.
so you'll note also that in the paper that also goes on to looking at the effectiveness of yourselves and how we get go about doing, you know, looking at the Audit Committee and it ties in nicely with obviously what we just heard and obviously Councillor Kelly's perspective about how can you know what you're doing? Could you do any more, but hopefully this review will give you that assurance look to see what how effective we are. Are we asking the right issues, are we are looking at it and it comes out from two sort of areas. One is the LGA peer review, where there was indication of people. I'm trying to understand
are we doing enough? It will be looking at the right things, and this should hopefully give you some comfort and in line with that. That is the CIPFA's own position statement, which also be saying that you know that you need to be a key part of that oversight and that governance to ensure that that things are or are going in the right way, looking at governance risk and and our because sort of control environment. So that's why we are proposing to use the same individual that looked at ourselves to actually go out and promote and look at the area. We know what should be covered because it is set out in the CIPFA's own agenda in the areas. I think that's listed within paragraph 19 here, so that's gonna be the minimum scope
that we will get a regard to undertake if there's anything extra you think is missing, then we can consider adding into it, and that's hopefully where we know we think that that should be sufficient, because that's what Cypher
of directing us towards, but if there's anything glowingly obvious that you think we should be adding to that, then we can certainly consider it.
in in that mix, we have made progress already in the past where you noticed this is not the first time you've we've looked to try to see, how can we add, how can we improve one of the key outcomes or that is sat before you today, we've got the introduction of independent members and you'll note that in we also now have dialogue with the audit sharing between Committees as well, just in case there's anything key and critical that's coming out, so there are improvements that we've done to date. It looks at the internal there's the external review of the internal processes that we have and the proposals that we're now looking to do
for yourselves, so as alignment of questions either from the sofa Andrew.
Councillor Kelly,
thank you very much, I'm just looking at page 273, and one of the areas that I'm particularly interested in is the use of data analytics, and I wondered whether we could perhaps get a bit more information on how we might be able to expand the use of data analytics here, because I think we could potentially get real real benefits and and,
Real sort of
improvements to our systems by easing that, and I and I know we have a data analytics strategy, but I don't believe it particularly covered sort of governance, internal audit procedures, and it would be great to have it sort of added in one and perhaps if we haven't got the information today, we could bring it back to a future meeting because I I pass over to Andrew to look at some of the the the more local level, what we're doing within our own section and Department, but the Council as a whole is
obviously identifies this as a key issue, this is not something that is just linked to internal audit, you'll have seen the new arrangements that's being proposed at the senior level with a new.
executive director and are being appointed, and also the Chief information and digital common and exact side, but the nature of that can show you that that the the senior leadership team really sees this as a key and a vital thing not solely for internal audit but the use of that will help trying to move us towards.
or an inappropriate.
highly technological area utilising I, where appropriate, and how we do about it, obviously you will need to be done in a measured way.
and to ensure that it's done effective and but also noted to do that, we need to have the right skill set ourselves to work to apply that doesn't necessarily mean it will be directly within our team, it will be utilising, you know, individuals elsewhere in the Council to help and assist us, but I'll add or pass you over to Andrew if there's anything extra to her.
thank you all and thank you Councillor, and so I guess in terms of where we are at the moment with data analytics and the audit team.
we have a very, very early stage and we have been for some time and we don't have a dedicated resource or someone without that particular skill set, we can't afford them, it is the honest answer we can't afford as a data scientist or thanks specialist and what we do have coming onto the table, so we have an Audit Manager position that's been appointed to that hopefully, but it will be starting with this in December now, and that's all the EA's experience that using data analytics, so they'd been using things like power, be I and python and and
idea which we have our selves at.
and that's, and I guess that would be part of what she would expect when she is doing what it works, so we, we've got really high hopes in terms of what she can bring to the table in terms of helping us me belong. We have somewhat so that they use the idea system, which is a data analytics system, though it's essentially allows you to use whole populations of data so they do use that at the moment to do things like GP co-payment testing, and they'll use it to select samples and make sure they choose a genuinely random sample from an entire population. But there's a long way to go. We don't do the interesting stuff by comparing data from one system to another system. We don't do continuous audit auditing using data analytics. There's a heavily important thing from my point of view, which is it's one of those boxes, isn't it that when you open it, the the possibilities are somewhat endless, but we have a finite resource, and it's making sure that we target that and a really clever way. What we don't want to do is end up with something that produces a whole raft of things to check. We want it to be able to test controls and say whether they're workings, so that's where we're aiming at we've drafted a data analytics strategy which will actually get the new Audit Manager to to have an accountant, and hopefully we can improve that
and then, when we go into next year's audit plan, will make some resource about the payable from each of the partners audit plan so that we can start progressing work.
thank you very much, it would be really interesting for us perhaps to see the data analytics strategy at some point, that'd be a really really interesting document, I think.
thank you yes, and along with Councillor Caddy I thought generally conforms how bad is this unrealised, it wasn't so I'm also well done for the team, because obviously it's a reflection on the EU and the team and everybody.
I had some questions on this, the first one was you've got issues for management action, I did wonder what the
the the benefits are about it just for the medium one, so I was interested in that and then one of the advisory actions on page.
2 7 3 as well was around.
rationalising the number of posts and I was a bit so I thought to myself well what what is meant here, so I appreciate some elaboration on what the rationalisation is, so what the medium changes mean, and what about the advisory one about the rationalising posts
or I'll tell them on Councillor, thank you, so so the medium recommendations for the reason they've been given a medium priority.
is because they relate directly to the standards themselves, and so so what what we are saying is that these are things that you should be doing to comply with the standard, and he didn't feel that we were accurately or doing them completely, hence the record, hence the the priority in the rationalisation benefits it's not about reducing numbers of staff so what
we have a structure that's that's kind of come together, as partners have joined over the years, we found ourselves in a position where we have a quite large number of principal auditors that have line management as part of their responsibility, we would like them to be more specialist in doing sort of no more complicated pieces of work.
but we ended up in a position where we, where we had.
probably nine people with environmental responsibility and only probably another nine or 10 people from to manage, which was crazy.
so it's about it's about addressing that, to remove the number of people who rely on monetary responsibility, which may give us more consistency when we're managing because there are less people doing it, and will yeah, they'd be more consistent across the partnership, and that was one of the things that sort of came out in terms of consistency.
also, I've just realised I've got this long, so actually it's not around jobless system, much as redefining what people do and then being able to use them in a more specialised fashion, I'll think.
I've got to the first one, was the peer review.
I was very intrigued with what came through with the peer review, I think I'd probably say, Ms Juliet is, is what can we, as the audit team, do I mean what struck me to start with is that,
there just seems to be a lack of and S I I I, I don't know how it was under the previous administration versus sort of a lack of.
probably desire to engage really in some of the audit process I don't know and trying to get that to people to say this is really important because this is explained is showing you how giving you reassurance that things are working in the way they should do so as I mean, I think particularly for me and I've took to donate it to Councillor Paul about this is perhaps trying to make sure that the leadership fully understand what this can do for them.
and I would think, with the peer challenge, is probably there's quite a lot to do with work with all councillors about what or what it does, because what people will look at it and go through its audit.
sounds really complicated technical, let's go and do something else, and actually it isn't always quite like that.
so I just say please ask us and you, one of the things that you've said is may want to extend the scope of the review, I think there's a lot around training of all the councillors perhaps, and I mean we can talk about that separately.
and that I mean if I could just address that point him in particular. Obviously, there is the wider context around the role of internal audit and the role of councillors. So I don't want to muddy the differential between uranium at this and service committees. So and we've had to be touched on that a few times in, you know in that so yes, you know there is a role on on governance for all councillors and there was a role that they should should have. But there's a distinct position for this particular committee and this review. I don't want to muddy this is a cipfa's guidelines around what's best practice for this committee then, and how we do that now, how you communicate and how you engage and how we bring things forward, because when you look at the LA on the LA later paper, there is, you know, the issues on on where there are recommendations and controls, that's how there will be Members and other committees which might help support and drive forward the oversight that you want to want to see, but this particular review is trying to focus primarily on the role here and the effectiveness of the role of the Audit Committee,
training, which is, as we know, it is an aid. You should all have received an e-mail asking him. Training needs assessment, which again is covered as part of this paper and this report and there was to Dummett. That is two dimensional in the sense that there will be well if and when we get the returns coming in for from everybody will identify those areas whereby there is obviously common themes which will enable us to be able to put something, maybe as a part of the agenda for for the for this particular committee, but again is not something that I'm necessarily openly want to have in an open debate right at the front, because I want people to be open and honest with where the gaps are and then we can identify and target and help and support individual Members on an individual basis where they may be the only one, nor there may be one or two people identifying or an area where they seek improvement but clearly where there is a common theme coming through that would then highlight and identify what we need to bring into a wider training programme that would that we would put forward here.
yeah though obviously you've said, it's the trainees' assessment.
I think my comment on that is a bit like Well, I'm not entirely sure what.
because it's the set for one, and it's very technical is actually which bits do I need on which don't I need, so perhaps we can handle that, I think I've suggested we handle that is you try and talk us through at first I mean I'm not an accountant by background but I don't think you are.
o you are so too, that's yes, but I I think I looked at it and thought yeah, I don't know anything, but actually that's probably not true.
Andrew and I would be happy to have a one-to-one with any of the this committee or others that they wish to be able to take it through, and I'll just do it because for for you to do an effective needs assessment, I totally get your point that you need to understand where it was coming from and what you need so happy for. You know, not just for yourself or anyone else in this committee if they wish to talk it through before completing it and do anything
we do it offline on a one-to-one sort of tie basis.
I think I just made the comment on that assessment was that there were three categories, full knowledge, some knowledge and no knowledge, which sort of left you of the range from 1 to 99%, for some knowledge into which I think we all fell on every category if we are truly honest,
the tone of that has tried to answer.
impressionistically, given that, but I look forward to learning more.
I think if there are any more comments, then I would say are Members happy to note the recommendations in A and B in paragraph 1 of the report.
and we now go to Item 5, which is a review of the Council's anti-fraud and anti-corruption strategy, and once again I tend to count Assistant Director, Paul Galati.
thank you Chair, so whilst this
it's obviously headed up as the Council's Anti-Fraud and empty corruption strategy. This is part of our outer south-west London fraud partnership, which is a sister organisation to the Audit separate partnership Simon at same entity. So this is the the fourth committee that this paper has been two or five, so it is just highlighting the fact that this is not bespoke just solely for us and you're not the only people that would have seen in that opportunity to comment exodus and hopefully that gives you some positive reassurance, which is the nice stuff on on the flip side, the ability to change anything is limited.
so when are you going into that because it is a collaborative approach that goes through partnership boards and everything else, and if we were to have our own bespoke one, that would cost, if you know, so I'm just sitting there as a market and everything hopefully you will see that it is very comprehensive, it isn't new, this is something that has been in place for a number of years the last time it was reviewed as in 2019
like with most of the policies, and you know it's best practice that you would probably in an ideal world, do it every three years, but in reality, as long as it is done within five, then it's normally would be relatively deemed to be satisfactory. This one sits nicely in the middle of it being four years ago, so there hasn't been significant changes. Clearly there has been a few in particular we are, you know, subs innocence. This was done, there has been a national local government fraud strategy which is
produced, some are two additional pillars which are now included in it, which is looking at how you, how we govern and how we protect, linked to protect, but not necessarily gone into significant detail here there is a proposal for there to be a new bill.
that the there's gonna come with, going through parliament, which is the need for to us, to prevent fraud, that isn't you know, any of the, it will be, you know, or a proper criminal aspect, but if that is done at an organisational level, not at a local level, so as as an organisation will need to be able to demonstrate what we're doing in order to help to prevent a fraud, and this is part of that sort of criteria
there has been some additional support given by central government in relation to the public sector fraud authority, which we've been utilising, you would have heard when Kevin in Holland has been here before talking about the apprenticeship programmes that we've been doing and actually getting qualifications for the counter-fraud angle 0of what our officers in the partnership do.
and then to tie in with all this, the main source of changes are in paragraphs 26 and 27, which which are highlighted in in relation to to to ensuring that we've got that need and robust fraud arrangements, so that's probably it for effort, but I would probably say in context as an introduction and open to any questions,
Councillor Kelly,
thank you, thank you very much Chair, it's I I think the strategy is very comprehensive and very complete, and we we've seen it several times before, so I'm not proposing any changes, I guess my question is.
it all reads very well. My question is, how how reassured are we that actually, all of the things that are in here are embedded in our are sort of staffing procedures? So how aware are staff really, and I know we say that we talk to them about the strategy and we post it on the intranet, et cetera, et cetera, but I just wondered whether we have any idea of of really sort of how staff how well aware staff are of whistleblowing procedures, fraud and corruption procedures, and I wondered if sort of specifically whether we do or could ask questions perhaps in the staff satisfaction questionnaire which all staff complete or hopefully all staff complete about how well they understand those procedures, how comfortable they'd feel about whistleblowing, I wondered if we do anything like that just to triangulate that understanding
I'll be honest with you, I don't know because we don't get involved with process on on the staff surveys, it's done through HR and independent and everything else, so you know there will be a a host of policies that we have and if we were to focus on one how would that then detract away from the sickness policy how that detract away from others so clearly from a selfish perspective I quite like what you'll say.
I come from a background, but if I was, you know he instead of one or micro VAT, I would probably come back with a different response, I'm therefore trying to say that looking at it overall, how we eat all time with supporting staff so that they feel encouraged and for being able to highlight issues through a whistleblowing policy and one on wide agreements or approach I think is sensible and right and proper and it would be how do we support people on that journey so that they actively are encouraged to do so?
I believe that that is there and that there is that that process, and that people are aware of of more than the whistleblowing angle, the A and N tying him with our whole of that sort of or or approaches on, what is it you know our values and behaviours.
I know the things that have been going out and promoting about what is we will do we expect from from individuals, and that is really the focal point about how to do it, the whistleblowing approach going through to it was the Kevin Hogan is not here but you know you know he would say normally he would be advocating that he that web where people do die do it that we can never guarantee.
you know, you know, someone's anonymity with it, but we always actively encourage and make sure that we do and that when you know people, I listened to and actions it is taken, so I think there is that sort of angle really where I would say I would hope he'd better provide you with some assurance, a unit you know I even if it isn't,
in that staff survey
okay, I mean thank thank you for that, and that does give some reassurance I I guess I'm just concerned knowing the realities of the day to day operation of some of our departments, whether you know every single person or a majority of people working in those roles of focus much more on their day-to-day jobs and and don't have an awareness of the of these kinds of issues.
I and I guess it, it would be good to try and have some reassurance that that is highlighted, because obviously it's an area that so, even if the public sector is an area, that's kind of ripe for fraud and misuse of of public funds lie on that particular point. Obviously we do the the service risks but go out to heads of service and within that we have highlighted about the the need to or failure to prevent fraud. So there is more of an onus on service heads and or Assistant Directors, and you know not, as I've got one here rather than one you know on a rugby pass, it may be a question may well be asked to have asked a shop for his view from his area
rather than it means giving you some assurance as to how he feels it is in his service area, so there's a bit more of an independence rather than it coming straight from May, from looking at someone from the the Housing Department from their take and perspective on on that particular question sorry suggested sorry, thank you, Councillor Kevin cheers, Dallas, OK, that's OK, I have to confess I was in the middle of looking at an e-mail, so if so, so we're referring to the so the whistleblowing policy here, essentially operating procedure and the procedures around that and as as Paul Mr. G L Mr G dot, he has posted out but pointed out we do complete an annual risk return, and we I know within our service area in particular, where we have had some issues in the past. You know the staff are very much aware of those processes and and and there have been implemented
we may say that perhaps they'd been used a bit too frequently at times in terms of you know how how staff feel about using them, but but there's training around that as well, and we wanted to highlight the need to use those processes properly but we've certainly I can say within our service area were very much aware of that and are and so so is our department.
reinforce income coming back, if you recall, and or and especially in.
your particular service area. You will have seen and the reason why I did then, as you talked about all our people, aware of the process, the RHI. You know a whole, you've seen the impact of the whistleblowing policy in Davos area and how it's been gone through and how it's been through this committee, so hopefully that provides you with the comfort that people are aware and be are willing to use it or and deal with it now it does. It cover every single employee, does it no, I do. I think that the schools may be necessary, will have their own internal policies and anything else. They'll always be more, but there's only so much that we can really actively promote
Councillor question,
thank you just just picking up on Councillor Cowley's point, I think I'd actually suggest that almost any organisation anywhere that deals with money, whether at public or private, has a potential for fraud in my experience working in the public sector, usually the employee handbook and the support around staff is it's all there and it is quite good and usually also that, particularly in an area where there's a union environment and the
take some interesting nudity that the the union reps one of the things that they would be very good at doing, is supporting staff who wish to make whistleblowing, and now that again it would be my experience, so I think.
yeah, I can I hear what you're saying, but I I think we can all obviously, hopefully these things are given to employees. The other thing is, of course, the results of the staff survey are available. Perhaps Ms Campbell can find it for us again, but we had the staff survey at Finance didn't were the last time round, it was one of the extra it was, it was added to the agenda. Pack so again might be worth looking to see if, if
stuff around the employment policies is is was covered there, yeah, manner and new ones out now, so that's maybe you know there is a currently in train a current survey, and so you, yeah, you know I hopefully the results of that will be quicker than the last time because the last and I think the results were collated internally and now there was an external party has been used to to deal with it.
thank you Chair, I've got a couple of questions if that's OK, Mr DeLacy, the first one is on on a point you made actually, Mr Sharpe about whistleblowing, and you have had instances, so I'm keen to understand how many instances we've had of whistleblowing or internal fraud and to what extent the Council has had to recover any losses through detected for fraud recently when I said recently within the last year and then,
my second question is around, and Councillor K Richard will will will know what I'm talking about here, because it came up at the Finance Committee about the Council's very ambitious change programme, which mentions technology and now, as soon as when, whenever anyone mentions technology, we now need to be thinking about fraud and online harms, so just wondering, Mr DeLacy, are you thinking that far ahead and are you linking in with this change?
programme that the Council has got in mind, I know it's very early days but just wanted to make sure you are all on the same page, thank you, so there's a couple of points I mean, we're not gatekeeper the whistleblowing policy so that the whistleblowers but blowing policy forms part of the Code of Conduct for employees and it sits within HR.
this committee gets the numbers on are fraught so as part of the PR or the premise when we get the reports that come through on the yno normally.
all round for the annual governance statement and also later on on Tron cigarettes.
I remember when it was in here until
but you, you know, so you get those numbers and on the key outcomes covetously.
count, stats and numbers can be produced and reported, I think again you do get some of these that come come through, so so that is put gives you that oversight, so the south-west London full partnership produced that as an appendix to some of the reports that that would always come in so that should give you the numbers on their head sorry just quickly Chairman and anything material that stuck out for you as a concern.
there has been in the past, there's been papers has been in confidential nature that had been reported to this committee, highlighting huge numbers off of issues in in the past, but you know all it takes is for one issue and then that that comes up, but if in relative terms as to the frequency how many numbers,
there are quite a few, but when you've got three and a half thousand traditional employees in percentage terms, no, so it depends upon how you will look at statistics if you look at the list it may be 10 12 15 20 year could seem high, but when you look about all of the areas that we cover and you look under the bonnet is, what is it is it a misuse of a blue badge that's done in their own time or is it misappropriation of funds so there are varying degrees and sit here it would be remiss of me to say that,
that you're not going to get a double digit numbers of issues every single year, but ultimately speaking, it's going to be what actions, what lessons to be learned from it and whether or not we are able to to recover, I've mentioned that large substantial one we recovered.
that you know the vast majority of money, if not all, of the money, and that was reported back 2 2 to this committee, so that's where I think some of the focus.
it needs to be on and let similarly the lessons that are learned from that and sanctioned all outcomes are one thing, but they are, you know what we want to try to make sure is that while she might, we might be looking at taking criminal prosecutions against individuals ultimately it goes back to that prevent element which goes back to our strategy about where it is that we're trying to trying to seek it in order to do because certain aspects and and which with all goodwill in the world,
Even with all these policies and procedures, it's hard to stop and the larger ones normally involve collusion, and that's why it goes back to other elements, which is things like values, behaviours. How do you oversight, have you got the whistleblowing so that someone suspects things are going on? Can you have the processes that that that put put forward, that people feel able to to to know that they can come forward and suggested either there's nothing to it, the fact that they feel comfortable highlighting and doing it and they don't want vexatious key challenges and complaints coming through, but you want to make sure that we have that environment, which I believe that we are open or transparent and we are, you know, enable that people to feel comfort and the change management programme which is looking at different aspects. There's a raft of areas
that will assist. I am looking at doing it and clearly from our perspective, and it isn't just about looking at it from a fraud but per issue, if there is substantial changes to processes as a result of what comes through it'll be over to the other angle or the sister company sister's partner, the audit side, to develop that within the plan that we have to try around and see because one of the key opportunities for people to behave unscrupulously is when you change processes and people don't really understand what's going on. So I wholeheartedly support and agree with those comments and witnessed for again when you're looking at here, if you're seen that you believe that the change management programme is is having a lot of significant changes to the way things operate, and you're not seen that being put into the Audit Plan to identify, then you should be challenging us
thank you.
thank you for providing a copy with the changes, because my first comment on this was what's changed since the last time I now know, and this has just led me to a couple of questions going through it, what's obviously changed paragraph 50 we I noticed it said the line about.
the Council also undertakes private prosecutions.
has there's a line that's been struck out, I quite like to know why, and also about the Audit Committee receiving an annual report, an interim update has has gone as well, so could you explain why those things have gone?
all right I mean, obviously, but we are updating quite a few of these, and I remember that this is partly an excuse me, it's the partnership, not the Council.
now, so we're talking about a partnership approach, so where there's a lot of specifics about talking about what an individual council does, that's gone because we're no longer, this is not a a review for the park for the council, is it's for the partnership now we separate partnership that we're involved within is the legal element which is actually your you know are operated by Merton so we utilise them to help and support us.
we still do undertake private prosecutions, virtually all of our misuse of blue badges is undertaken directly by.
the fraud partnership team, they're the ones who go to magistrates, courts and undertake clearly also much broader than that.
we do undertake an again using that same example, but I refer to with the collusion and a major fraud. We were originally taking the prosecution directly ourselves. It was unfortunate that when it was taken over by the central function that that prosecution fell away, so we continue to do it, so hopefully that gives you the assurance that we're still doing that you get returns that come forward to hear both in the fraud updates and also when we have undertaken directed surveillance in order to to look at some of these angles, you get an annual report that comes back to this committee on how we've utilise those
sorry, I just said the things that are deleted are, because this is the group strategy for five councils, but the fact that they've gone doesn't mean that Wandsworth wouldn't necessarily do them correct.
so who are those changes now approved?
thank you, so our final item this evening item 6 progress made in dealing with the main governance issues, including internal control issues arising in 2023 24 and previous years.
Mr George again, OK yeah, so I'll I'll give a brief introduction to this particular one, because this is a paper that you would have seen regularly and time and time again, it provides a general update on the progression that we've made in relation to,
the audits that and recommendations that were made in the past and the overview on our annual governance.
items that have been picked up in the past, one of the key issues and in the key areas that is the that for a number of years, as as has shown.
outstanding, but we've had a brand new audit undertaken in an in which you wanted to have a greater oversight and interested in is in facilities management, which is why I've we've got two colleagues here from that service area so they can provide you with. Whilst it's still a limited assurance, hopefully show you the positive changes and the positive improvements that have been made because, whilst still 2 priority 1 recommendations, the position that there have been at the last time was significantly worse. It was more than 10, so hopefully that shows you the strong positive direction of travel there are, but clearly you may have some questions of them, which is why we got the colleagues here. Alternatively, for the other areas, I'll probably defer to to Andrew to to cover, but if there's anything particular that you have on the strategic oversight on it, then I cannot see address those
Councillor Kelly, thank you my studio to yes, my questions I did have some questions on safety management and I guess I don't know if you can just give us an update on where we are and what why we've still got items that have not been implemented and when they will be implemented because I don't think it states in,
I think its paragraph or its page three to four and three to five isn't sort of state exactly when they're going to be put right, so I would be interested to know a bit of background there please.
thank you, Councillor Caddy yeah, so, as Mr. G Doughty has highlighted, we did have a and I was shown and saw that a few years ago now, and I think it consisted of 13 priority 1 recommendations, so clearly not a good position for the service to be in and it was on the back of a number of issues which which I'm sure,
members will be aware of Ms Casey, who is the head of a CIL is management joined us just sort of at the point I doubt that that that audit had been completed, so we've been very much on a
on a transformation, if you like, of the service or or or and we've gone through a change in structure, we've restructured the team that that's recently bedded down, and whilst we can see progress has been made, clearly we've still got work to do on the basis that you know there are some priority ones that there have still been identified, so they particularly focus on.
f arrays in the first instance, so there are some actions outstanding from fire risk assessments. We have had a focus on that area and we have had additional resource in place to help us work through some of those remedial actions. We have suffered on the back of the sort of current market, so we have tried to procure a number of time contractors to deliver our whole services, which would pick up areas like fire safety, remedial as or some or all, or some of those works, and we've been unsuccessful in that procurement exercise mainly on the basis of our you know, inflationary prices in the market and contractors, availability to be able to to to price those works competitively. We do have an in-house team as well, so we have some in-house resources. The original model that we set out within F M was a pre was was a mix of contractors outsourced and a one in one in an in-house resource. Again, we have struggled to fill some of those posts internally so that has impacted on some of the progress that we would have liked to have made around, the particularly around the completion of the affairs. However, what I can say is some good progress has been made and a number of the issues that have been highlighted in the paper around completing those farmers have been actioned. We still have some more to do
but it is very much a focus of the team and, and we're very much focused on Rio, completing that work or or or or or and or and being compliant in that area you know as quickly as we can.
at Ms Casey, I don't know if you want to add anything.
I just hope this.
sorry, yes, we have carried out quite a significant amount of work, reviewing all the putting new processes into place and reviewing them regularly we have for we were doing a piece of work at the moment with development work with the concerto's system which is Katherine system.
which will really speed up the whole process and which will make them take out a lot of the manual work, so that I think, a lot of the things that were picked up on the order and it was a very thorough audit, I must say.
it
it was picked up that things job hadn't been completed, where in fact they had been completed, but it was documentation hadn't been uploaded onto the system by the contractors and we have, as, as Mr Sharpe pointed out, we have had some problems with our hard services contracts because we have probably about 30 or 40 different contractors and the aim was to really reduce that through letting out her.
in three lots t to cut down on the amount of paperwork, amount of chasing that we have to do with contractors and because we're still working on an interim basis with these contractors until we, until we really get a much better proposal in place.
where we don't have any KPI is in place for these hard services contractors, so like are the people who were doing off of fire, remedial works and are legionella remedial works.
it's very difficult to to make them provide the paperwork within a timeframe that would suit us which would be straightaway, but.
obviously we're dealing with thousands, thousands and thousands of remedial actions and thousands of reactive repairs, so so this processes is quite time-consuming and laborious for the contractors, so they tend to leave it to the the last minute.
I'm just sort of relatively concerned and frustrated that we've we've obviously had you know the the negative audit report, and it does seem you know, several cycles later, that we've still got these key issues that are coming up and obviously fire risk assessment and health and safety.
are both areas that are really significant and serious, and if something goes wrong, you know it's potentially in a devastating?
so I it it didn't sound from that explanation, like there was gonna, be an immediate correction to this.
there are obviously issues with the contractors, and I guess I just want to ask what we can do to overcome those, because I think it's really just unacceptable that we have this this kind of level of risk that exists.
sorry, thank you, I mean just to sort reiterate, it is very much an absolute priority for us tonight, declared as those fire risk assessment and remedial actions, and we really are focused on doing that and putting the resource into it, I think in relation to in relation to the contractors w we are focused on trying to get back out to the market with a revised procurement strategy to get to to get contractors on board, looking at our internal resources and just making sure that we geared up in order to to to you know to to to to focus on those whoa high-priority areas or you know, and that's what we're doing at the moment.
so I guess there's the question for for Mr duly off to promoted team what would be the next steps in terms of coming back to this committee, can we come back at the next meeting with a report to confirm that these points have been cleared?
the these will actually be coming back to the Committee that they say this is and it, wherever you get a priority, 1 recommendation that audit will always come back, whether it's to her, you know, you know, hopefully, in a positive way to say there's no outstanding actions on the right-hand side but if they aren't and then you know when they haven't improved then no doubt,
the Committee will ask the service to come back.
hopefully it will be in a position whereby those you know that, for such a unit of an organisation such as the source of facilities for Benjamin, it covers a wide area. So if I'm brutally honest with you, it's you know the likelihood of them having no recommendations when when audits are undertaken is low, obviously we want to be in a situation where we are not in the no assurance where we're not in the limited assurance, but we're in that substantial which is the highest that you can get
and where we get to, and in that so, whether you only were recently having you know the odd pizza or you know type recommendation. That's really. Where is the best case? If I'm getting it, you know if we're looking at where where we want to be seeking to try to try to get it, so that's really where I would be saying is hopefully actively encourage. You know the team to progress and work forward to these things. What we also we all need to do is we will need to follow up on where things are so, even if they are clear from the service areas view. We may still take a decision that we would want to leave them on for a period to ensure that those new arrangements are bedded in
so that he isn't being negative towards the service area, and sometimes it might not be the case because, as we've highlighted, is that the there has been changes in personnel and therefore when you get that, you'd want to make sure that it properly is, is it it is embedded, and so yes, it's definitely will be coming back, come what may, because it's on there as limited assurance, it's whether or not the we we would require anyone to turn up from the service area or not. It very much is in their gift, because if the actions are taken, then do you really need them back
if they are, you know, if they aren't, then clearly you may want to to hold them to account.
thank you Ann.
first question to follow up on that one and then I've got some others and I just wanted to clarify for myself facilities management, they only doing facilities management on the council estate, that the council employees are in, or are we also looking at facilities management for the housing estates and therefore our residents are being affected and that's it?
now, yet the the facilities management service is focused on our operational property portfolio, so it's Council.
operational buildings and council offices libraries day centres, it could be, you know, s service buildings located out in communities, so so in other non-housing portfolio.
that policy.
welcomes the
no, no, no, I mean, I actually had another question that was just to follow on that I picked up after what get OK.
I had.
commercial waste database I didn't quite understand what was happening here, but it looks.
given that trying to keep or borrow very clean and tidy is one of our key priorities, I was a bit concerned that they've got problems with the current.
commercial waste, a system could tell us a bit more about that and how that might be affecting residents and what needs to happen can you direct us to which page pleasant sorry 3 to 6.
and I think it's also going to appear somewhere else as well.
thank you, Councillor, I'll I'll take that one, so the commercial waste database his
it's on an old access database system that's no longer supported by our IT, colleagues.
but it's not affecting residents or businesses in the borough what it is doing it is making.
it is making the processes internally inefficient.
so by by implementing a new system they'll gain efficiency, they're having to do some manual workarounds at the moment, which is unhelpful when it really means that some things sort of slip through the gaps, but essentially it's really about an opportunity to improve the processes internally.
OK, but if we're improving processes internally, obviously what you're saying is it's taking a lot of time for people to do things that they could be usefully doing.
and yet are there any plans?
it is there are a decent plan about replacing this system, yes, there is.
I went.
Carla Councillor, can I come back to you on that one, I'll I'll I'll fight is in the reports on my but I haven't got my fingers on it.
thank you Chair, so my question, Mr jealousy, was.
I was actually quite surprised about these issues that have come up, certainly on the Children's Services side.
and having been previously a school governor at Smallwood, in Tooting for a couple of years, I was even more surprised to see Beatrix Potter come up because it's one of the competing. It's the school that the or the other that most parents want their kids scouting rather than Smallwood, which I I disagree with. By the way, for obvious reasons, I'm a bit biased, but I was really surprised to see on page 3 2 3 that there were three members of staff with no evidence of DBS checks. Now to me, this is like a fundamental breakdown of
of systems and controls and safety for children. Here, can you please confirm what I mean, because if a parent saw that from Beatrix Potter, I'm sure they would be really really surprised and actually quite worried, has this been rectified and how do we go about making sure this on this never happens again. Please, I'll pass you over to say to Andrew to go the detail, but but I'll just just want to put things generally in in context and any and it ties in slightly with the earlier comment about facilities management
if you look at what the recommendation is site in is no evidence of that doesn't mean that they haven't been undertaken, and it just might mean that the filings Paul and there is the other difference so there's two different levels of doing it now. Clearly from your perspective, you want to make sure that there are effective controls so that if you haven't got the evidence, if any of them it's always going to call into question these challenges and when and where they are, but there is no, but you know there isn't often, especially when it does come to things like DBS not just here but in general there is automatically the driver or my God what's going on the absence of a DBS check in its own right
is not necessarily a significant worry, and I suppose that on its own, in that sense, it's looking at the context of where it is who it was what arrangements that were in place during those interim periods and in general, because clearly, if you've got an unknown individual, that is never dealing with them with them with or you know, or you know the the children themselves, how important where at all it is, so it's the various different degrees which hopefully Andrew can give you some more assurances on and everything else, but I just wanted to make sure that when when you're seeing one lines in in any of our reports or in on here that we don't necessarily
think that or that or a particular school is completely and utterly failing for those particular reasons so.
thank you, Mr Josh, I'll I'll cuts say Mr George is right, so at the time of the audit are unable to evidence that the checks have been completed, they're certain that they had, they were able to demonstrate that a barred list check had been completed, which is kind of the the bow belt and braces tie type approach which you should complete before someone starts if they haven't had a full DBS.
we we do follow up and we will go back sort of within the next few months and make sure that those checks were in place.
we weren't concerned enough to say that the school needs to yeah take some some action at that moment, and they'd recorded that the members of staff had had the check completed on their single central register, they just were able to provide the piece of paper that showed that they'd had that done.
I think you can probably tell by the look on my face that I'm really surprised, because if you don't have the evidence, then how can you prove that it's been done?
sorry, it's so it's slot was not complicated, there's a limit to how long they can keep the the disclosure so they have a six-month limit and then they have to destroy any disclosures that they receive, whether there is whether there is a disclosure or not, so they didn't have that piece of paper. What they hadn't done is then recorded that the reference number for those fellow checks do you know if this information has been fed back to the the school governors of Beatrix Potter, and are they happy with this
the audit reports go go to the head teachers and they go to the governors, and they also go to the director of children's social care in in the Council yeah.
SOSC N para 37 there was a comment about a data cleansing for people on social housing waiting lists.
and removing applicants who are not eligible help councils allocate social housing, obviously understand that, but I also know from experiencing casework that it's not always straightforward for people who are on the housing waiting list to be reminded about.
having to stay on and provide the correct information I mean is this, so is this comment just in here, because it's a comment, or is it here, because actually there's going to be some work done, and if there is some work done on this, I would obviously urge a lot of caution and care about making sure that people don't get off the list by accident because they couldn't read it properly, they didn't get the info, the e-mail or or that sort of thing yeah, so this isn't a part of the Audit angle. They said this is part of the fraud bit in highlighting the work that the fraud team does that this is part of. If you look on on paragraph 37 is referring to that. This is part of the NFA exercise whereby naturally, you would be looking at doing data matching data cleansing in looking at the various different records
PR issues. Paragraph 37 was sorry yeah, so it's not the sort of thing where you're looking and discovering someone supplied somewhere him in one borough, but actually is ineligible because they live in another rather than just checking whether they still need the housing yeah that there's a number of different things, but that is what you highlight. There is one particular issue is, the fact is that they they may move in with a partner that may have moved or moved away, but they have put their actual application has not been cancelled because, as they've gone, UCL or as they're gone away, but that's an example. There were several issues because it is that was just being used as a, as you know, an example of the sorts of things that happens in relation to the data cleansing work that the fraud team does
yeah
Page 3 5 5
a contract management.
it says the Council provides contracts and then is a new contract and assess what a wide contract management network.
that work is being established.
on
just wondering how
I try and play this delicately as Chair of Finance ICS 83 so that have come through to be, and quite often they come through, because I have to declare the urgency how much of the new contract management process, how is that likely to impact on the urgency in making sure that,
officers, spot contracts that are due for renewal well in time, so we can take appropriate action.
sorry.
so in general, there is a contract database, you know the register, which has everything that that's on service directors, have them the aid Assistant Directors have them and they should be aware of when contracts are due for renewal within the the any strategy. When it comes to procurement, you know people should be looking to try to start in advance 18 to 24 months prior to the you know the termination of a contract when they should be starting the process. That's in that's already available and people should be able to to to pick up and deal with them now. Clearly there might be pockets of when the contracts haven't been done and signed, and the ESA A to 83 process is an approval process. That's not. When the real impact around procurement takes place, it's around scoping upfront
there is a new processes that have been developed and help to support officers when it comes to procurement, there's loads of support, loads of advice, as there is a dedicated.
a central procurement team sits with me and there's a lot of is proper guidance as the officers' guide to procurement as a regulations when it comes to contract management. There isn't, or wasn't anything from a central hub that goes out to give people clear. OECD guidelines and expectations. A review has been carried out or a toolkit has been produced, it's been approved by seen by the Director. Sport is present being presented to the senior management conference and it ties in with activists, which is a new tool that's being used to deliver both procurement oversight, help support commissioning new data analytics and on trying to address to see whether or not spend analysis to see whether or not there because we can collate contracts and also there will be a support around the contract management tool because the KPI will be uploaded onto it, and then the contractors themselves will be able to upload their own information, and we need to be careful when we liaison with people because we've had you know there are other
sort of systems we have in place, and we don't want to duplicate work, these things like concerto one and one as well as on other systems, were where providers would potentially be looking to to to put the various different working, but there's there's clearly a is part the change management programme when it comes to commissioning and procurement work streams areas have been reported through on what we're doing on asthma, so it's gone through to the various different groups and there will be workshops once atomic is live and ready for a contract management worsening.
thank you, I mean if there's any opportunity for me as Chair of Finance to have a look at how it's going to be done, I'd be very interested and I suspect the Cabinet Member would be to Councillor Alan has been given a copy.
Councillor Ireland has a copy of what's happening on this.
as you give me her hassle, can you give me one as well, so I'm happy to share this, please thank you.
Waste Management contract, the Strategic contract meetings.
this is quite interesting actually from what you said is you request see the most recent quarterly minutes, does that mean the minutes, the meetings didn't take place or nobody monitored them in that case Page 3 6 6
this is.
question.
and thank you, Councillor, my understanding is that the the meeting was well minuted, you know, I mean the reality, is they're not monitored, there's no evidence that they have been completed so well, whilst officers, we would assure us we can't give any assurance that they were completed and then this is pretty difficult if they weren't monitored to actually follow up or whatever. Thank you, and I will refer back to the my so just one might be it. On the previous comments. I just made this that the new toolkit clearly outlines what would be expected for people there before contract standards says Go bronze, silver or gold and platinum, and that will outline the frequency of
meetings, and what should or shouldn't be done at those meetings,
12 Councillor Crichel has found her final questions, I think I should just comment that I think the the depth of detail here.
leads one to feel as if the Council is awash with procedural irregularities, but actually I think that this provides me with a great deal of comfort that very little escapes the eagle eye of the audit process and the scrutiny that has then provided by the key Councillors.
is ensuring that I think we have a fairly robust system, but one should always touch wood when saying something like that, but thank you do continue, Councillor C, Richard, thank you, I've got to the end of the question.
Jane I, I found the answers to our notes, which is the previous element, but I know that Councillor Hedges was asking for some numbers on the fraud bit is on page 3 2 9 and 3 30th of the paper will tell you what the current level of fraud investigations are.
are we therefore happy to note the recommendations here and approve them?
although I note them beg your pardon, yes, thank you very much.
so that marks the end of the meeting, I just like to thank the officers, and I'd also like to thank the other officers who have been present at the back of the room in case we had some IT problems and to our secretary, Laura Campbell, thank you very much indeed.
welcome again to Ilva, I hope you have enjoyed this and we look forward to seeing you at future meetings.
and as I don't think I'm gonna see all or many of you before Christmas, I wish you all they'd say, then I would say that.
in this capacity.
I just took her to wish any of you, I don't see for any.
- 20-21 and 21-22 External Audits with appendices, opens in new tab
- Internal Audit External Quality Assessment, opens in new tab
- Appendix 1, opens in new tab
- Anti-Fraud and Anti-Corruption Strategy Review, opens in new tab
- Governance Progress Report including Internal Control Issues, opens in new tab
- Appendix 1, opens in new tab
- Appendix 2, opens in new tab
- Appendix 3, opens in new tab