Housing Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Thursday 27 November 2025, 7:30pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

Housing Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Thursday, 27th November 2025 at 7:30pm 

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  1. Webcast Finished

Good evening.
Welcome to this meeting.
I am Councillor Sarah Davis, the chair of the housing overview and scrutiny committee.
Just a few opening remarks from me.
We are two days into the 16 days of activism against gender -based violence.
and I'm pleased that the White Ribbon Brigade in Roehampton was very well attended.
And I pay homage to all the survivors and our officers who support women and girls who escape domestic abuse.
Another comment is that about a month ago, I think, many members of this committee attended the residence conference,
which was a first for us and it was very well attended by residents, I think more so than ever before.
Really useful insights were gleaned on repairs, maintenance, housing online and of course the C3 grade work.
So, members of the committee, I'll call your names in alphabetical order
and please switch on your microphone to confirm your attendance.
So that's Councillor Corner.
Councillor Corner, Councillor van Eyland's ward and opposition to the Vika on the committee.
Councillor Fraser.
Good evening.
Councillor Givincia.
Good evening, Councillor Givincia.
Councillor Mrs Graham.
Present.
Councillor Stock.
Good evening, everyone.
Councillor Varitharaj.
Good evening everyone.
And we've got apologies for absence from Council Ayres, McLeod and Hamilton.
I'd like to welcome Council Dickerton as the cabinet member for housing and
Mr. Thomas Glockner, the vice chair of the Borough Residence Forum.
And I've also invited representatives here from the Southwest London Law Centre
to speak on our discussion of temporary accommodation.
So I'd like to welcome Chofion Obovica, I hope that I say your name correctly.
and Patrick Marples. We've also got a number of offices present and they'll introduce themselves
when they address the committee.
I don't want to be difficult and I always like process and procedure to be proper.
Nothing about the guests you invited, no problem about that, but I do think as a matter of courtesy
you should have told members of this committee that that is the decision you take.
It's not a deputation for which there is a process, but you've decided to invite guests to address this committee.
And I think it's only right and proper that you should have taken the precaution, not precaution,
but the courtesy of letting all of us know that you've done that.
You've sprung it on this evening. It's not the point. In a sense, it doesn't matter.
But he just thinks the process is a process and propriety is important if we are going to proceed like this.
I mean we can have any guest you like, but that's not the point. It's about saying how you do it.
Thank you, thank you, Councillor Covington, for raising that and I've noted that.
And clearly it wasn't meant to be a discourtesy and then added a benefit for us.
Not to label the point, but I also think there's a point that if we know about people attending
the committee, we can prepare for the conversation accordingly.
Thank you.
To be honest, it was quite a last minute confirmation that there were attended but point noted.
Thank you very much.
Item 1, the minutes of the last committee meeting, 2nd of October.

1 Minutes - 2nd October 2025

Can I ask if there are any objections to confirming the minutes of 2nd of October 2025 is a correct
record?
Agreed.
Thank you.

2 Declarations of Interests

And I'd like to ask on declarations of interest, are there any declarations of either pecuniary,
other registrable or non -registrable interests?
I'd like to take care, it's not a pecuniary interest, it's not registrable, but I do work
for Homestart Wandsworth, so in relation to the temporary accommodation papers, that,
My work there fuels my interest in the subject area.
And I think I'm very privileged in that I am inside people's homes,
speaking with them very regularly in the course of my day job.
So we've agreed to change the agenda, just to cheque that we are happy with that
so that we can have the temporary accommodation paper first, because we do have the guests
here.
You should just ask us. I mean, I have no difficulties in changing the agenda order,
but you just need to ask us. You cannot take decisions on your own about changing the order
of the agenda. It's just a simple process. I have no difficulties about it.
This is exactly what I'm doing now.
I'm asking us now to agree if we are happy to have the temporary accommodation paper
as agenda item three, which would be coming before the next item.
Are we agreed?
Thank you.

4 Temporary Accommodation Demographics (Paper No.25-410)

So I think what we'll do is we'll have an introduction of this paper by Dave Worth.
And then I would like to invite our guests to come in with introductions to introduce
themselves and then we'll put it out for questions.
And hopefully we'll have a very good, productive conversation leading to a new understanding
and hopefully sort of get some measure about where we're going to be going next.
Thank you, Chair, thank you, Committee.
So Dave Worth, Director of Housing Services.
If I could take you to the appendix to the report.
The report itself just sets out what's in the appendix in summary.
So I'm not going to go through the appendix slide by slide, but I'll try and give a summary.
So the slide deck sets out various information about the temporary accommodation position,
how much we're using, what types we're using, where it is.
It dips into some demographic information about the households.
It talks a little about the expenditure challenges.
It talks about the statutory framework in which we have to operate.
And it talks a little bit about the effects of long -term temporary accommodation and indeed any
period in temporary accommodation that can manifest themselves for children the
Next three slides give a summary of the legal position. There's three things there. I would highlight
That the trigger for the council's duties to be engaged is described as a low test the legal construction is
whether the council has reason to believe somebody may be homeless.
So quite a low test.
Our inquiries have to satisfy us that somebody is homeless,
but our duties are triggered where we have that reason to believe somebody might be.
So a low test initially.
The second legal duty is the duty to provide suitable temporary accommodation,
and we've referred in the slide deck to that being something of a floating legal test.
What that means is it's not anchored and fixed.
It will vary on circumstances and what might be suitable for one week or one month may
be unsuitable for three or six months, to give an example.
The third duty that I think you need to be aware of is the what's sometimes referred
to as a target duty, where the legislation says we should secure accommodation in our
own area as far as that is practicable.
And there's been fairly recent case law involving,
it was quite old now actually, involving Westminster that,
the gist of it says that if we have to place out a borough,
we should research and understand what's closest
before going further away.
So kind of concentric circles
around the borough is the way the courts have sort
of described it.
As we all know, as you know, as we see most every other day,
these days homelessness is very topical numbers in temporary accommodation are
at an all -time high in England in London and also in our borough we use different
types of temporary accommodation bed -and -breakfast is the one that often
gets the most coverage because it's clearly unsuitable after accepting the
emergency and after six weeks in any event it's a legally unsuitable unlawful
for a council to use it.
We don't make much use of it.
There's comments on that later.
The slide I'm on there highlights that contrary to what some people might think, a lot of
temporary accommodation provision is actually done by the housing revenue account with lots
of our families, homeless families, placed in our existing stock being used as temporary
accommodation.
As you know, as is often reported these days, numbers have climbed recently.
So the slide headed up temporary accommodation use by type of temporary accommodation highlights
highlights four types and compares the position a year ago to the number at the end of October,
the change and forecast.
So you can see the extent of the challenge we've got there.
Our use of nightly paid, which is self -contained, is high, it's expensive and it's growing.
The chart called Borough Comparisons is something we've purloined from a public document and
that is really showing the position.
The only fact I would highlight to you on that table is that our use of bed and
breakfast despite how comparatively high numbers is low at 2%.
Only Bexley and I think Croydon have a lower percentage.
And many boroughs, as you'll see there,
have hundreds of households placed into temporary accommodation.
The second thing I'd highlight there is our profile of temporary accommodation is pretty typical compared to the position across London
So that's the entire on that one
The next on location of temporary accommodation is the pie chart. We still have a majority of people within the borough
Fifty three percent rounding up
We have a further
15 % rounding up in adjacent, in neighbouring boroughs, particularly in Lambeth and in Croydon,
but we have almost a third outside of the joining boroughs, elsewhere in London, and
we have a small number outside of London. And that's something that's worsened. If we
looked at that chart 10 years ago, you would have seen 75, 80 % in borough, and that's probably
been the change around over the last decade or so.
Temporary accommodation is a misnomer.
Nothing temporary about it.
The average time for those we rehoused last year
was 43 months.
So approaching four years.
And that's an average.
The larger the bed size needed, which
goes on to the next side, the longer that time will be.
So the next slide tells us the bed sizes.
You'll see that a small majority of our clients actually need studio one -bed re -housing,
but we've got, what's that, approaching over 400 households who need four -bed and larger.
And those are the families that will be in temporary accommodation for a very extended period and a very significant cost.
Of course, yeah.
On page 25 you just said the average for those rehoused 24 -25 is 43 months.
How is that calculated because there obviously haven't been 43 months since 2025?
No so in 2025 everybody that was rehoused it counts backwards.
So that's the time the re -house people spent in temporary accommodation.
So, people who left temporary accommodation in 2025 had spent on average.
That's right, yeah.
And from memory that was across, looking at Ms. Nazir, maybe 600 households, something like that.
We then look at the gender and age.
You'll see that female -headed households are in the majority.
And in terms of age, the bulk of the clients are between 25 and 54.
We then look at the ethnicity of people in temporary accommodation.
and there's a comparison there with our population and the population across London, and they
are remarkably similar, which as would be hoped I'd suggest. There's then a slide on
the number of children in temporary accommodation. It's approaching 4 ,000, sorry, it's 2 ,000
households with children, nearly 4 ,000 children across those households, and you see the breakdown
there between a couple single males who are very much a very small number with
the majority being single female headed households. And then there's a
piece there with a link to a publication of parliamentary research from a select
committee on the impact of temporary accommodation on children and some of
The impacts that they highlighted are listed there.
They're things that you would expect and some that you might not expect, but that's
probably a discussion point.
We're moving to the end of this now.
Financial picture, and again, you can't seemingly look at a website or read a newspaper
these days without hearing talk of the, you know, chronic, absolutely chronic financial
pressure that the temporary accommodation spend is having on local council budgets.
I think it was Waltham Forest this week were reported as having a £70 million spend, or
maybe a £70 million overspend, but that's pretty much every authority these days.
The out -term position for ourselves is shown, with net expenditure exceeding £30 million
and the net overspend in the current last year being £5 million.
The final slide, I think, pretty much, is the current position, and again, it's a £5
million predicted overspend at month six.
So that's the presentation.
Hopefully, that's provided the Committee with, you know, some raw data, and obviously,
myself and colleagues are happy to answer any questions members might have.
Okay.
Thank you very much for giving us that overview of the report.
So what I'll do now is I'll go on to our guests.
And then I think the way that I'd
like to structure questions is first
to look at questions about the human costs
and the lived experience.
And then look at supply and demand.
So just to, so we're not sort of,
yeah, so we're sort of lumping everything together basically
and having some kind of smoother discussion.
OK, so I don't know who's speaking first.
Is it yourself?
Thank you so much.
Hi, my name is Shofiana Babaker.
This is my colleague Patrick Marples.
We're from Southwest London Law Centres.
We work across six boroughs.
We help over 5 ,000 folks a year with different types of legal issues.
And recently, through the work that we see on the ground,
And we have seen a need to join London -wide campaign for the five basics of temporary
accommodation.
So just to kind of talk about that, the figures in your report reflect exactly what we see
on the front line.
About I think you said 3 ,700 households in temporary accommodation, about 4 ,000 children,
and that the average stay is about 43 months.
And that is very true of the anecdotal storeys we hear
when residents come to us for,
whether it's cost of living issues, employment,
or any legal issue they have,
if they are in temporary accommodation,
they let us know that I've been there forever,
my children are growing up in those properties.
So because we support so many residents,
we decided to have kind of aiding in temporary accommodation resident action groups who met monthly
in Croydon and in Wandsworth. Our Wandsworth group may have written letters, established forums, and
recently we have joined the Better TA Alliance and with Trust for London and Citizens UK to participate
and fix the Five Basics campaign.
So what that looks like is it's things like cooking, washing, Wi -Fi, safe storage, and
clear information.
And these are things that all of us need.
So the people in temporary accommodation, these are not luxuries.
They are foundations of health, stability, and dignity.
We regularly meet with parents heating noodles and kettles, teenagers falling behind at school
because they can't get online, families occurring hundreds of pounds in storage or laundry costs,
or living surrounded by bags because there's nowhere to keep their belongings.
One Wandsworth household we supported accumulated more than £5 ,700 in storage debt simply because
they became homeless.
That's unsustainable for families and ultimately increased demand for crisis services, which
then our partners across the borough as well as us then have to step in and navigate.
And what we gently want to kind of highlight is progress is already happening elsewhere
in London, so we've really seen promising action in other boroughs.
And so we are not asking, I guess, to fix everything, but we want to start the process
of fixing something now.
So for example, Greenwich provides free data SIM cards
to households.
Islington provides meals or a hundred pound a week
for if the property doesn't have kitchens.
In Grunts, there's guarantees funding
for three meals a day in the B &Bs.
And then in, sorry if I'm mispronouncing
because of my accent, but Barkingham and Ealing
provides storage and removals.
Southwark avoided hotel placements entirely
for over a year by prioritising TA with cooking facilities.
So we're not asking Wandsworth to do any of these alone,
but we are saying that we don't want to fall behind
our community in Wandsworth in the positive change
that is already happening in other boroughs
and residents deserve the foundations for wellbeing.
I want to be very clear, this campaign is not about
criticising the councillors.
We know Wandsworth is under huge financial pressure and that officers are working incredibly
hard with the national temporary accommodation crisis.
The five basics are about turning the money that is already being spent, more than 30
million last year you said, and with 5 million overspent, into better value, better outcomes
and healthier families.
Our approach, we want to be collaborative and we want to, as Southwest Lend Lossers,
to be a partner in how we can reach those solutions.
So I guess the first thing we want to ask is that
will the basics campaign be integrated into the contracts
where possible that you make with the landlords
and to work with us to map where there is need
and then work together to close the gaps.
So I just want to again mention that we represent
the residents who come to us for help.
the frontline community groups who support them every day,
and a wider ecosystem of volunteers, partners, and Wandsworth,
and all of us want the same thing for families in terms of accommodation
to be able to live, not just survive.
Thank you.
Thank you so much. Really appreciate you being here,
and I don't take it as a criticism at all,
because I think, you know, we really want...
We value looking for further collaboration and ideas, yeah,
to make improvements.
So yeah, thank you for helping us on the way there.
Okay, so yeah, so we'll go for questions.
So the first lot of questions can be about
sort of lived experience, human costs.
Councillor Corner.
Yeah, thank you, Chair.
And thank you so much for coming to the committee
and giving us your view.
I'll focus on, as you say, questions to our guests
rather than the offices for the time being.
But I think one question I have is, what are the main reasons that people go to you for help
rather than the council? I just understand, obviously, everyone who is in need of temporary
accommodation and at risk of homelessness is in great need, but I'm just wondering why people
go to you specifically, as it must be a subset of the overall number of people in need.
Yep, so I wouldn't say that necessarily people come to us as opposed to the counsellor, council.
I would say that they come to us both and sometimes the referrals come from the council.
Sometimes they come from the courts.
Sometimes they're just doing a Google search about what they can do and that's the first
thing that popped up.
And I just want to highlight, as I said in the information I shared, that this is, we
don't just see this in our housing.
somebody might come to us about cost of living or debt and we identify in our
Survey that they live in temporary accommodation. They've been there for a long time and
Just as your quick follow -up. Do people need to be referred to you or anyone can approach you?
Anyone can report we provide low to low income and legal aid
Counsellor stock
Thank you. Thank you very much for your presentation and sharing your direct experience. Just wanted
to focus a bit more on the five basics campaign and bring it back to Wandsworth. So really
great to hear the examples that you gave in other boroughs. But could you just explain
what you understand the position to be from residents that you're supporting? And really,
I suppose, from your perspective, you know, what is the one key ask maybe that you might
have in relation to those five basics.
You know, I know you touched on Wi -Fi and clearly no internet connexion means, you
know, no homework, no job search, no ability to access GP's appointments.
So just really interested in exactly which one of those five basics you really would
say is resonating with, with residents that you support in Wandsworth.
I think that, um, so I just want to refer to some, um, some months back in September,
we held a community lunch where we brought voluntary sectors, residents and some of the
counsellors that are sitting here today and we together identified those gaps and I can
always circulate some of the things in writing but with for example cooking, the priority
there is that we can map and review the existing facilities to identify properties without
safe cooking access and then exploring options for the interim as we look to fix that.
And then with Wi -Fi, I mentioned something that we, through the conversations we came
to realise is sometimes even when the resident is able to get their own Wi -Fi, the property
is not suitable to instal the Wi -Fi.
So maybe that looks like the contracts or the review of the properties, that's a clause
in there, that it is suitable for Wi -Fi installation.
In terms of wash and laundry, I know that Wandsworth is doing
really well with that.
However, the anecdotal storeys we hear that is becoming a
pattern from the resident is that the
drying space is an issue.
And so we had a storey from one of the residents that said
because of this repair, the mould, they had to use their
comforter.
And that meant they had to wash that every week.
But even beyond that, when children come home
and they've made themselves dirty,
even if the residents who say they wash it in the sink,
they don't have anywhere to hang it up.
And then that gets accumulated.
And going with the bus and carrying that with you,
it can get difficult.
So I guess drying space with washing
is going to be a point for us.
In terms of storage, that also expands to the same thing with giant space, but exploring
partnerships to expand access and present findings and proposals is something we would
love to see in the near future.
So while we don't know what we can do right now in Wandsworth, we ask the counsellors if
they could be a partner with us and explore avenues.
And then lastly, information packs.
I think that that's something you all are already working very hard to provide by January
2026, we would just like to be part of the
feedback and review for that so we can make sure
things like Wi -Fi is in there.
Thank you.
Councillor Stock.
Thanks. Just a quick follow up. Thank you for that.
That's really, really helpful to kind of understand
what what residents have said in your your direct
experience. So there is an opportunity for this
group of councillors to make a recommendation to
the cabinet in terms of actually what moves forward.
Say if there was one area, what would you really ask this group of
counsellors to potentially ask the cabinet to do?
I would say storage.
That would be our priority.
What specifically about storage would you be asking?
Um, the residents have identified that they don't have space to, um, be
able to live, especially families.
So I think while we're we're working really hard on everything but storage is a huge issue. So you're asking for sorry
Sorry, are you asking that the council provide free storage for everybody? He's in temporary accommodation. Yes, please
Council Covingia
Thank you, thank you for your presentation just just pursuing that point and
So how just trying to get some numbers around?
your
caseload. So presume your five demands are made from the interviews you
have had with people who come through your doors. You give us numbers of people
who have actually asked for storage as opposed to let's say cooking facilities.
So we get a real feel about what is the nature of the shortfall and what is the
nature of demand because something like Wi -Fi is a very different solution and
perhaps an easier solution compared to maybe providing
cooking facilities, I don't know.
But just having some numbers would be helpful.
So the work we do is through a lot of meaningful
relationships we have with the people who join our
temporary accommodation action groups.
And so I think a better way to answer that is the storeys
that we see on the ground as opposed to the numbers
because we know that I would say just based off the data that come to our doors for any
issue, almost half of them live in unstable housing, whether that's short term tenancy,
homelessness or temporary accommodation.
That's the data we collect.
However, the specific storeys we hear are through our action groups, which meet monthly
and they've met for the past three years and we've built meaningful relationship with them.
Sorry, just one more.
Are you saying you don't actually have, you have storeys but you don't have figures?
Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, we don't have figures but we have lived experience, residents with lived experience.
Councillor Fraser.
Thank you, Chair, and thank you for your presentation this evening.
Mine was also on the five basics and I'm just thinking about how that can integrate or work
with the work that we're looking at and to improve here at the council.
You talked about integrating that into contracts to close the gap.
Do you have any examples of what that has looked like?
I mean, you referenced a couple of other boroughs.
Are there examples of where that integration into contracts has worked well that you've
or words of advice that you'd like us to follow?
Yes, I think where I mentioned it was suitability that Wi -Fi was not able to be installed in certain areas,
or in cooking facilities there wasn't always places to cook.
Councillor Coroner.
Thank you, chat.
I'm interested in the footprint that you operate in, the whole of southwest London, six boroughs.
Are there ways that boroughs could be working together more closely to help tackle this
challenge by bringing scaled solutions?
And if so, can you provide any examples of it?
So, we work in six boroughs, and so we want to have the other boroughs to adopt kind of
like a domino effect.
For example, as we saw in the numbers, Croydon isn't doing as well in temp recommendation
as Wandsworth, so we want to look to you to lead that change.
And just to follow up on that, does that mean, would your ask or recommendation be that the
boroughs and their housing teams work together in partnership to deliver that?
And obviously, you know, working in partnership is a good thing to tackle kind of policy challenges.
But are there any concrete examples of best practise that you'd like us to look into in
terms of partnership work?
Yes.
During our community lunch some residents pointed out in some of the storeys that we collected
Where people didn't know how long they who their housing caseworker is how long they'll be there and so the information pack
That's when that comes in. So I would say best practise is more transparency and communication internally
But as well as I'm working with other boroughs to see what they have done
Thank you very much for being here today.
It's been really useful information to have.
It's kind of touching upon the questions that we've already had, but I think you said that
the other boroughs are kind of giving up 100 -pound vouchers, guaranteed three times the meals,
and are paying for storage.
Out of those policies that other councils have, which one would you say is the most
effective from talking with the residents that have lived experiences which one which
of those policies has kind of really made a real change to the residents of course all
five of them are really important but just kind of highlight if you can highlight which
ones thank you.
I think in the two areas the in terms of wi -fi the sim cards and and having to spend money
on those things when there's not enough local resources.
I'm getting into tenancy agreements as the landlord provides it.
I just want to also mention though that without cooking facilities they do have to eat frozen
food or sometimes eat outside, especially with children, and that's caused a lot of
storeys of malnutrition and things like that.
So we would like where – is LinkedIn, Brent, and Barking provide meals?
document Councillor Graham. Councillor Graham. I'm actually looking at prevention. I think we
will have a duty of care for prevention better than you know TA. So I would very much like to
know, the breakdown of the causes because as you can see from the paper, page 30, the
impact is massive on the children and families. And I think that what is the Council doing
in that area? So what are the breakdowns? You know, is it purely domestic abuse? Is
it purely rent arrears? You know, I'd like to hear more about that. And also, what is
the council doing to prevent prevent that?
No respect council, can I just cheque, are we moving into...
Yes, that's what I was concerned about.
Do you want to hold that until we do?
Are you ready to move on?
Let's just cheque if there are any questions particularly relating...
Yes, okay, so we'll hold your question, Councillor Graham, and come back.
Just yeah, just one other question you referred to your
Resident resident action group into the community lunch that you've been doing my understanding is the council itself has a temporary accommodation
Forum I wonder if you could share any experience that you've heard directly from residents of of that forum that we as a council
Are hosting and the conversation and the dialogue that's happening there and whether residents are feeling
That their voices are being heard and the and the council is is responding and acting on what they're raising in that forum
Yes, so we participate in the forums and we mediate and invite the action group members
to join those forums and feedback into it.
I just want to, on top of that, just mention that we can send out a survey to our clients
in Montsworth to say if they had to prioritise one or how many of them live in temporary
accommodation to get the data that you're looking for.
Thank you, that is very appreciated.
So, yes, Mrs Graham.
I also add now, following what Councillor Stockard said, so what is the breakdown from the TA
forums as well?
Because I am really very interested in how we can prevent rather, but it is great what
we are talking about, but prevention is better than cure.
With your agreement chair, if I may, can I just pick up one point from the questions
and then ask my colleagues to address Councillor Graham's point?
So I was just going to say, I'm not in the business here of sugarcoating it and presenting
that our numbers are great and there's no problems.
Of course there are.
The numbers we got in temporary accommodation are significant.
However, I highlighted in the presentation that our use of bread and breakfast is a small
percentage.
And the chart with the colour code and the other boroughs, when it says we've had at
that time 81 households in the timber accommodation, they would have been pretty much exclusively
households without children, because we don't make use of bed and breakfast for families
with children.
So what that means is most, almost all of our families who are in timber accommodation
will be in self -contained accommodation, office cooking facilities and so on.
However, some of those units are small, they're not generously sized and in our
experience when it comes to the storage question, two things crop up quite a lot.
One is buggies and prams, big bulky items in a small space being left out in
corridors, potentially falling foul of fire safety and so on and so forth. And
the other thing, and it's just a very practical thing and you know when you
think about it, if you're homeless, this is going to be your reality. Many people have
suitcases and you store those and it takes up a lot of space. So just to highlight those
two practical things, and I'm sure you hear those as well, in the new scheme that will
come online in the new year down in Tooting, we've worked with the provider of that and
every family there will be provided with a fairly generous storage unit, lockable storage
unit in the basement to put those items which they don't need day to day.
So it's one example.
There's going to be 180 families there where we are trying to tackle this, where we get
the opportunity.
So with that, I'll be quiet and ask my colleagues to...
Yeah, I think if I...
You want to come in now?
Yeah, if I can just get Councillor Dickerson to come in at this end point and there'll
be more follow up.
Yeah, so the process of the forum is what led to us kind of meeting Shofian and learning
about the five basics because it's quite a useful critical friend framework because we
meet with the forum, which is usually run by Rhiannon, and Rhiannon is also running
the kind of monthly meetup groups.
And Rhiannon came and spoke at committee for those who've been on the committee a while,
came and spoke before and brought a resident.
You remember?
Yeah.
And they never caught them.
Oh, sorry.
She went on maternity leave, so that's why she's not here
tonight.
But why it's useful is because things like the Five Basics
campaign, which is spreading across London
and getting pick up from parliamentary groups
and things like that, goes and speaks to the lunch groups
and the kind of autonomous non -council affiliated.
And then they can come to the forum
and hold us to account on the things that they think is important to them.
And we're having, you know, I think it's fair to say we're having, there are some
things we're like, well, Wi -Fi and PRS is a challenge because it's on the tenant
if they're in the PRS settlement, but if they're within our own accommodation
and we can't instal Wi -Fi because of the way the room is, that's our responsibility
to step in. So we're trying to navigate. On laundry, for instance, you'll be aware
of the campaigns within our own accommodation, Nightingale Square, you
know, the successful building of the the laundry and then out of the laundry
fantastic but now there's not enough place for people to dry their clothes.
Collective laundry rooms also come with their own challenges so it's an
iterative process and I thought it was a good idea for this committee to see how
those iterative critical friend processes work and I think it's also
useful because you know for you to press those buttons and work out what the art
of the possible is because on, you know, some of our policy decisions have specifically
come out of the Tooting Hotel, very controversial political decision, lots of public shooting
on it, public meetings, discussion, cabinet. The Tooting Hotel covers the five basics in
many ways because it self -contained, has cooking facilities, has laundry facilities, will have
Wi -Fi. So part of our decision making on that process was feeding into that picture that
is being fed to us directly from the ground.
But for me, it's an important area of policy formation
that I want this committee to have sight of.
Because as, Ravi, you've pointed out,
how much of it is anecdotal?
How much of it is actually based on data?
How much is it based on the tenants who
are willing to travel and go to the lunch meeting?
And then are we only hearing those voices?
So there are some questions about how we ourselves,
as a council, collect this information.
And I think probably the one that's
going to be the most contested will be the information
part of the five basics.
Because we might say, well, we think
we do quite a good job on the information.
Or some of the information we're giving, people
are just not going to like.
They're not going to be happy with the accommodation
or the sign -off process.
And I think, again, that's going to be an area where the council
has to really be willing to face that scrutiny
and be willing to try and challenge ourselves
in the macroeconomic environment that the rest of the paper
is outlining, which is one of demand pressure, unrelenting
demand pressure.
So that's why I thought we can go through onto the officer
questions later.
But I think it was good to have someone who is basically
alongside this committee holding our feet to the fire
on the questions that come up in a space of people
with lived experience in the borough.
Yeah, I mean, if I can just come in then that I see this
anecdotally.
And one of the issues that I think
is quite critical from my perspective
is the possibilities for babies and children to have space to play and if
it's that home where it's going to be the warm child -friendly space nearby, you
know, but at the same time be lovely to capture, you know, is that as prevalent as
I think it might be or not. So to carry on working together on this would be, I
think, very fruitful.
I just wanted to add that following Rhiannon's, when she came to committee, we did a bit of a tour of our hostels last May.
And as a result, we installed laundry in Kearney Lodge and some additional washing facilities as well,
as that was one of the issues that was highlighted as a problem.
And we're looking into more storage at Paladino for the storage of prams.
and we did quite a lot of minor works as well,
even letter boxes in some of the hostels
as a result of that visit.
So working with them to make sure
that it improves what we have.
Yes, sorry.
Seema Choate, Head of Housing Services for Prevention and Casework.
Totally agree that prevention is better than cure.
So we are under a duty within the Homelessness Reduction Act to obviously take cases at a
prevention stage and there is some real good prevention work that is being undertaken for
people that do come to us and we know that they're homeless within 56 days.
Um, and there can be several reasons for why people become homeless.
Um, our three main reasons are, uh,
parental and friends evictions, uh, end of AST, uh,
in private rented sector and friends and family evictions.
Um, so yes, and there's also loss of AST or end of AST.
assured short -haul tendencies and domestic abuse.
There are top three reasons.
So we'll try and do our best in terms of offering a range of options that are related to those homelessness reasons.
Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. We also offer private rented sector wherever we can as an option as well.
With that, we do also have a safety net.
We have a duty called the relief duty.
And that basically is to accommodate people into temporary accommodation
that have nowhere to go and actually do fall under a priority need category
for homelessness.
And of course, if we do ascertain that they've got nowhere to go
and they do need a roof over their head,
that's how they'll go into temporary accommodation.
However, our prevention work doesn't stop there.
We do also try to make offers for people who are under the relief duty in terms of finding
alternative accommodation.
Private rented sector, of course, being one of those options.
And sometimes actually some families do find or singles find that they don't want to stay
in temporary accommodation and do leave.
It's a very small minority, but we do try our efforts then and there as well.
Thank you very much.
If you could clarify, 55 days.
Now with domestic abuse with our council housing, I know that there's a lot put in that the
housing department does to stay safe and stuff like that.
So in a way, as regards to being domestic violence,
you do have a longer run in, hopefully,
as to how you can actually help that person.
I mean, is there any more you could look at as to working?
I mean, when you look at the impact on families and things,
you know, the prevention, I believe,
is it's worth pushing more.
Also, with short -hold tenancies, you're saying.
Well, if there is a short -hold tenancy,
you must be aware that there could be an issue of homelessness.
What are you putting in place to stop that trigger?
But also there's another area of rent arrears.
I've dealt with people with rent arrears and they have been kicked out.
What are we doing with rent arrears?
Because it's one of the most painful things to sign off rent arrears,
in finance when we actually could have, you know, when you begin to see people in distress
financially, does that time with 55 days or are you in relationship with them or does
the finance come to you and say hold on here, we need help.
I'm just looking at ways as to how we can, you know, keep people in their homes rather
than go to Croydon, although bless Croydon, thank God they're there.
But you know, you know where I'm coming from.
I'm very grateful for more in -depth information.
Sure. Thank you for the question.
So for domestic abuse victims and their families,
you've obviously identified stay put, stay safe.
And that's to empower victims of domestic abuse to remain
in their property.
and there's a range of options that they can take in terms of remaining,
that may be applying for injunction at court,
it could be installing a panic alarm button
so that they've got extra additional protection.
So when that doesn't work, of course, we will offer victims and their families
alternative accommodations to temporary accommodation.
When they come into the council, for instance,
we'll see if they would take a refuge placement as well
for a short period of time,
until we can source better planned
temporary accommodation as well.
In terms of the assured short -hold tenancy loss,
although there's a prevention duty where, you know,
we would look to provide any preventative work within 56 days.
We do get to know of cases earlier when a landlord serves a Section 21 notice.
So that's, you know, by law, we should and do take those cases on board and start working on them when we get them.
Rent arrears is an issue or a challenge and when we do get tenants who are in arrears,
we do work with the landlord and negotiate and also try to see if we can make payments
to alleviate the rent arrears and renegotiate terms of tenancies with the landlord so that
they can keep and the families can remain home.
That is one of our top priorities and that actually is working very well
in terms of a preventative measure
Add to that council, I think the 56 days is what's trigger triggers the statutory duty
So if someone is homeless in 56 days that when it comes in it is but we use that as mr
Choke was saying we use that period often
For example, if somebody's in rent arrears or the rents gone up we can use the incentive
also to make sure if the landlord wants to we can top up and give incentives if the rents higher and
Pay off pay off the debt, but some of the domestic abuse cases if they come to us when they're actually fleeing violence
Often that's the crisis stage and it's challenging what we can do is put them in a safe space and make sure there's some
multi -agency work going on
The discussion on the short -short -hold tenants is probably just to update the committee with
something fairly important that I'm sure you're aware of from media, which is the
Renters' Rights Act has now received Royal Assent. The government last week,
week before, published the timetable for implementation, so with some transitional
arrangements, I'm sure this is something colleagues at the Law Centre are all over.
The first of May next year, new no -fault evictions will become not legally possible.
So that's a big change and whilst there is a risk that between now and then there may be a spike,
if landlords think I'll replace my tenant, I'll move out of the lettings market, etc.
which some commentators fear may be the case, when we get through that transitional period,
we could be looking at a scenario where maybe 10 % maybe higher of the demand we
get at the moment cannot come to us because it cannot happen. So you know
looking a few years down the line this position may start to improve so that's
just me speculating but that's something I think you probably know already.
I'm going to bring in Paul Chadwick and then I think I had Kate Stock and Miss
Councillor Covington.
What is mentioned is about the Renters' Rights Act and I think it would be helpful to have
some discussion on specifically that area at an appropriate time.
Can I just make a comment about Councillor Mrs Graham's points about prevention and what
more can we do.
So I think you all know I'm only in this job for two months, two months Monday.
I think I'd like just to stress that I agree with you, Councillor Graham, the really important area.
It's definitely a priority for the director.
It's definitely a priority, probably the top two priorities for
me alongside the response to social housing regulators.
This whole territory and I think we've, well I know,
we've just emerged from a couple of workshops with consultants, experienced consultants on this very topic.
And the focus of those workshops are certainly the results of those workshops.
Alongside colleagues in the room, Council Dickerton, and a whole range of other officers
connected to this service is that we should do more and more on prevention.
And that's a real area of focus where it should produce dividends not only in terms of, of
course, what is a rising cost to the council, but it's also a focus that will allow us to
continue to, I think, to be a compassionate council in this territory as well.
So I agree with your council and it's definitely a focus for us to do more and more in that
place.
That's good to hear.
Thank you for the question.
Councillor Stork.
Just responding to Mr Chadwick, welcome the emphasis and prioritisation on prevention.
Just one comment on that before I come to my question.
Just on page 28, I'm a little concerned
by the ethnicity data and the comparison with that data
with the data across London.
I think that tends to under -represent
the racial disproportionality of this issue.
And I think when we think about prevention,
we need to acknowledge that.
I think we're kind of comparing the Wandsworth data with the London -wide data rather than
thinking about the ethnicity of the Wandsworth population as a whole.
So I think if we think about households describing themselves as black, as I understand it, across
the Wandsworth population, that's 10 percent.
So we are significantly overrepresented within black households.
And I think within temporary accommodation, I think that's the case for all racial groups
except for whites.
I think when we look at that prevention lens, I would be grateful if we could take into
account and acknowledge that overrepresentation and take that into account in thinking about
some of the work that we do around preventing families entering and households entering
temporary accommodation.
In terms of my question, I just wanted to come back to the request from the Law Centre
around storage and Councillor Govindi's question about whether we have any information on numbers.
Do officers have, well, A, do they have that information on how many households in temporary
accommodation don't have adequate storage?
I don't know if we've ourselves done any surveys, for example, with everybody who we're in contact
with who's in temporary accommodation.
But if we haven't done that type of survey, do we know how many households in temporary
accommodation are overcrowded?
Comparing the number of bedrooms that they have compared to the number of bedrooms, we
would give them if that household reached the top of the queue and was given a secure
tenancy in council accommodation?
So in terms of households who are experiencing a degree of overcrowding in the temporary
accommodation provided, we should be able to give a, I wouldn't say definitive, but
a good estimate of that.
It will depend on the size of the unit, etc.
There are times when, for example, in our own stock, we might put a small three bedroom
family into a two bedroom property to keep them local, etc.
So we should be able to provide that data.
On who lacks storage space, we don't have that.
And it would be very difficult to get it other than a survey of all residents because it
obviously depends on how much stuff somebody has relative to the size of the unit they're
and people make, anecdotally, I mentioned suitcases which people may need when they move into temporary accommodation,
many people might have family or friends who can look after those until they need them again.
You know, we just can't monitor that. So, I think in terms of a questionnaire and more resident feedback on this,
it's something we're conscious, we don't do as much as we'd like to,
and that might be a piece to take away and ponder a bit more.
I'll just add to that about the storage, because obviously as part of our legal duties,
we do provide storage facilities for those who need it, who've become homeless.
So space and arrangement is part of suitability.
So if somebody had come to us and said, we don't have enough room for our items,
then we would have to look at that and move them, because that's part of the suitability requirements.
But when somebody becomes homeless and they need storage facilities we do provide that
And in and one's worth we do charge for that based on affordability plans. I
Think how some stock has a follow -up question just on the overcrowding point. Did you have that?
information to have now or a ballpark
figure for families who experiencing a degree of
No, we don't have it to hand.
We'll happily take that away and come back to members of the committee in the next week
or so.
My impression, I'll reality cheque it with my colleague, is that it's probably a small
but sizeable minority of residents.
I think maybe 10, 15, 20 percent, but that's a guess as much as...
As long as there's no statutory overcrowding we will as its temp accommodation we can
We will overcrowd. So for example a family that needs a four bed. We may give them three rooms
because
They can use the living room as a bedroom, but if they're statutory overcrowding we would consider that unsuitable we would move a family
And can I just cheque
Council Fraser did you have your point was on this point?
So Councillor Coroner, do you mind if we bring in Councillor Fraser at this point?
Thank you Councillor Coroner.
And then yeah, it's very much linked to that one.
Just Mr. Wirth, you said about not knowing where some of our temporary accommodation
storage needs would be.
In Carney Lodge, which is in the ward I represent and then having been to Nightingale Square,
in Carney Lodge it's very clear where the storage need is because the residents have
put stuff under the stairs and then council has put stuff on labels on there saying please
do not put there because it's a fire risk so we do we do know within our own stop where
where it's needed and I think probably with some probably with some creative and and solutions
that there is space in carny lodge if if with some of the officers where where it could be
transferred over but I think and obviously like I should mention here that the residents are now
So grateful to have washing machine facilities there so that they don't have to spend so much money at the laundrette
So you're my thanks for that because I do ask for that for so many years, but with storage
I think we do know that within our own book. So I think some of that would be able to get
or know that anecdotally in individual blocks and
Mr. Nazir mentioned Aladino house where we have similar issues
What my answer was we don't have it systematically logged in a reportable format
we can go away and do some research on that and come back. It will be a mix of
art and science though I think.
Councillor Corner.
Thank you chair. There's been some interesting discussion this evening about the various actions that the council can take in order to mitigate this very serious issue.
What I'd be interested in understanding from the officers is are there any additional levers
that the council can pull in terms of policy -wise but also operationally in order to address
temporary accommodation needs?
And have any of those levers been mapped to initiatives taken by this council in order
to actually pull those levers and make a positive impact on the burden of temporary accommodation
that the Council faces financially?
So I'll first have an answer to that, Councillor.
That's a big broad question, so I'll probably start fairly broad as well.
The position we find ourselves in looking at the activities we undertake is generally
speaking our numbers are strong and are improving, but demand is racing ahead of that.
So, you know, we are running faster but not keeping up in a general sense.
There's a couple of policies which, or policy decisions taken by cabinet in recent times
which give examples.
So we have the introduction of the digital occupancy checker, which we hope to roll out
in the next four or five months.
We have mentioned the Tooting Hotel has been mentioned.
That's going to be a flagship scheme, which does things that many other temporary accommodation
schemes doesn't do.
So we've mentioned storage, we've mentioned all units,
Wi -Fi ready, we have integral cooking facilities.
In addition to that, there is going to be
and it's being specked out,
a room of possibly approaching this size in the basement area
for homework with the provider providing PCs, laptops.
There will be a communal kitchen.
So whilst people have their own cooking facilities
in their units, there's a communal kitchen in the basement for more social, cultural
events, that type of thing.
So that's one example.
The other thing I would mention, it's very early days, we're in the very early stages
of something which is being promoted by government, MHCLG, called the Ending Homelessness Accelerator
And we've got some money, sub -regionally we've got that, and that will flow down.
What that is looking at is, and it's interesting to hear from colleagues from the Law Centre,
that the issues that we wrestle with in Wandsworth are pretty similar to the ones in Croydon
and Lambeth and the other boroughs in which they work.
And this programme being developed by MXC or GE, and we've been asked to be one of the
steering boroughs on that, is about more sub -regional working and particularly about sub -regional
procurement because the fact that we wrestle with is quite often we'll be chasing a temporary
accommodation placement that we need to make the booking and we might be in competition
with Lambeth or Croydon.
So more joint procurement, more joint protocols, more joint up working effectively across the
cliche is they said to do borrowers and we will do it slightly differently and that doesn't make sense.
So hopefully that's answered your question.
Yeah okay go for a quick follow up. Thank you. I wondered if I had written it down somewhere.
I wondered if –
You were just talking about the Tooting hostel and the basement space and I just wondered
whether there might be a possibility of having, you know, in the daytime you said homework,
but like a play leader, youth leader, but also maybe some voluntary sector support.
So one of the things we're doing in the run up to its opening, which we were hoping
was going to be around the middle of next month but there's been some delays
so it's going to be in the middle of January we've already established links
with colleagues in children's services the play service and so on and we'll be
setting up a visit with them to spec that out as you suggest so is your
follow -up on this for this point yeah okay go for it and then I'm counsellor
ridiculous coming in.
Yeah, thank you, Mr. Worth.
That gives you a good overview.
And I think the Tooting Hotel,
we've heard how that new accommodation
will obviously allow us to reduce the numbers
of families who are not in temporary accommodation
but need it by 180, was it?
Should reduce, at least when we fill it up
for the first time, the number out of the borough
because we're gonna be prioritising people
further out bringing them back to the borough through that. Right okay so
there'll still be a significant challenge beyond that and obviously
bringing that accommodation online costs money as well so in terms of levers to
reduce costs or rather because the need is rising the marginal cost if you like
i .e. the cost incurred per extra person who needs temporary
accommodation, are there any levers that we're pulling around that? So for example,
striking agreements with hotels to provide bed and breakfast that you know
in greater at greater scale and therefore less per room or for example
understanding appetite from people in need of temporary accommodation who may
actually want to move out of the borough, albeit you know probably most of them
won't want to move very far but but some of them might. Have any of
haven't you been explored or are there any others that are being taken to bear
down on marginal costs? Yes so I mean one of the advantages of the hotel is that it
gives us fixed and then predictable expenditure because it's a lease we've
got it for five years it's at a rate and that rate increases by a percentage so
whereas as committee members will know in recent times particularly about 24
months or so ago there was a big spike when inflation climbed to whatever it did.
That was replicated in the temporary combination market and here it's really
hard. They've come back down. So we are doing that. The other things you mentioned
like encouraging you know with with with residence agreement and occupants
temporary combination agreement here if somebody wants to move further afield
and we can help them we do we provide deposits and all that stuff. It just
comes back to the point I made earlier that we're doing, you know, and we're not complacent.
The workshops that Ms. Chadwick mentioned have thrown up some things that we might do,
but do differently. We might do a greater volume. But generally speaking, the things
we mentioned are in the toolkit, as it were. But demand is racing ahead of us.
Councillor Dickerson. Yeah, so I've got kind of two points. One,
and this is to pick up on a conversation just before we head into committee with Councillor
Stock, which is the key missing part of this paper, which is coming out in this discussion,
is we really should have had a page of all the things we've done in the last three years
that are different to kind of set some context so it was easier to follow. Because we've
got a snapshot of the situation, but we haven't really outlined all the different things,
be it laundry services or the hotel scheme, the increase in staff, all the kind of, because
then, you know, we're getting used to this process as a committee, then it's kind of
like, well, where are the gaps that we haven't hit? And I think the prevention point is a
really good one because as, and also as Councillor, this is onto my second point, as Councillor
Govindia raised about the Renters' Rights Bill, the Renters' Rights Bill coming in in
May very much likely explains the huge spike in placements that we're getting because we
know that people are being, I guess, evicted with Section 21s before it becomes banned.
But then once Section 21 is banned, in combination with our new licencing powers and therefore
our new licencing staff, I think we do have an opportunity to really step up both prevention
in PRS but also offers outside of temporary accommodation. We just spent the whole day
talking about this at a workshop. How we, for the 10 years I've been on this committee,
it's been a rational understanding that people who present to the council want to, basically
that they see the route to social housing as doing some time in TA and that is a really
not a good experience for them because TA as we know is really some of the I would say
most poor quality accommodation in London but has become a huge financial incentive
because for the landlord because there's a huge demand for it and so when the PRS becomes
more stable I do think we have to get and because of the you know we're going to build
as many council homes as we can, but we know that the supply of council housing and social
housing isn't in the short term or medium term going to meet the demand for it. How
do we incentivize and make people feel safe in leaving temporary accommodation and re -entering
the private rented sector? And that was a much harder conversation to have when the
insecurity of, you said, well, I've been through this process so many times, I don't want to
do it again. I'd much rather just be in a secure, you know, I think prevention is going
to look a lot like how do we as a council support and make people feel that there is
a path for them, a home for them and a space for them in private rented because that's
what the Renters Rights Builds outcome is meant to be, that you should feel safe in
it and you shouldn't feel like you are always on the edge of being on the edge of homelessness.
And that's a piece of work that I think we should be building up to. But it's a complicated
one because obviously lots of people very rightly and rationally would like access to
council housing if they want a low income and that you know that's a rational and reasonable
desire.
Thank you. I had to cancel both through Arsh and then Councillor Gavincia.
Thank you Chair. I just had a request for future papers that come out on temporary accommodation.
When looking at demographics is that we're missing how many refugees and sanctuary seekers
We have living in temporary accommodation.
So the refugee services team have four housing officers who do work across both Richmond
and Wandsworth, but their main focus is on prevention of homelessness for people that
are on the government resettlement schemes.
So I was with Aaron yesterday, who's our head of refugee services.
He was able to give me some things at the top of his head.
So at the moment, we have about 50 to 60 households in total, but they're refugees.
So 40 to 30 coming from the homes from Ukraine scheme, 10 from the Afghan resettlement scheme,
and about 10 households where the council doesn't have information on the demographics,
but what we do know is that they've left home office accommodation,
and as a result we're having to house them.
So it's just when we're looking at demographics, if we can also include this cohort of people that are graded from home office.
Happy to do that, but just to clarify, the people who are seeking sanctuary,
i .e. who've not yet had a decision from the home office,
are statutorily excluded from the council providing them temporary accommodation.
So these are people, I'm talking about people who have a positive decision on their claim,
we can provide that information in future updates, no problem.
Okay, so I'm just about to go to Councillor Gavindya and then I think we need to sort
of think about, you know, if there are any sort of burning questions and then about how
to wrap this up and sort of looking forward, what are the next steps here?
So, Kavindra.
Just sort of look up the PRS sector.
The Renters' Rights Act will create a spike, but some of it also will be what is the capacity
of the ones at county court, because some of these were required outside.
I don't know what your discussions at the county court level have been and whether there
is any warmth from what they have said.
My understanding is the County Court lists are pretty chocka,
and the capacity is very limited.
And any spike in their work would
mean that it just balloons elsewhere.
So I would like to hear a bit more on that.
The other factor, of course, is that quality of PRS
is a good aspiration to have, but the quantity of PRS
is also a good aspiration to have given the cost of the nightly accommodation.
So I don't know what steps are we taking and the figures don't bear out very fruitful outcomes of our work we might be doing.
But what are we doing to grow the availability of PRS?
because that seems to be the easiest and the quickest and better quality accommodation
that we can access.
So on your first point, there's been no discussions with the local courts as yet.
In fairness, the announcement as to the timelines were very, very recent.
You're right to highlight the current backlogs in the call.
My feeling is that, so anyone who's received a notice prior to the 1st of May, if their landlord moves that to the next stage and applies for possession in the courts until the end of July,
it will be dealt with under the old regime. There are, it's anecdotal but maybe delays and you may know, but several months before a case comes to hearing.
So I think through the whole of the next financial year, we will still be seeing homelessness through no full evictions.
By March 27, I think it's a reasonable assumption, that transition spike should have dropped off.
In terms of attracting private landlords into our schemes, we keep an eye on the incentives.
We do periodic marketing, but you're right to highlight the fact we shouldn't need to do more,
And that's one of the features we were picking up in the workshops that we referred to earlier.
What's our offer? What's our marketing? And so on and so forth. So yeah, fair point.
Off of the PRS point, I mean I've seen the Council's checklist when it comes to judging PRS.
I mean, there are two gaps, obviously identified one tonight, because there's no reference
in the checklist of Wi -Fi availability, so that may be something to pick up on.
There is fridge cooker and washing machine, there's three bits of white goods items in
there.
I kind of wonder whether the Council ought to think of things like, it seems like a strange
thing to say, but a microwave oven which is going to be both cheaper, quicker and easier
and much more safe, space efficient device in particular in tight terms.
I just think some imaginative thinking might be helpful.
But going to that list, the list doesn't include, for example, checking the property
and whether it has got any vermin infestation, either history or evidence of it.
And I dealt with a court case where that was a pretty egregious amount of upset that the
family had to go through in order to move out.
So I'm just wondering whether our checklist is good enough, robust enough.
And in the second gap I found was in interrogating somebody about it, is that we don't actually
necessarily visit the accommodation that is being offered and then we contract to take
it on.
And whether there is merit in working with other boroughs, particularly if there's an
to better accommodation available, to working with the boroughs in the grouping to see whether
their environment services or housing officers could do us in a pro quo basis, cheque out
and give us a report.
But I mean, I think it's grossly upsetting for a family to be both homeless and then
go into accommodation that is unbearable to live in because of vermin and then having
to fight to get out of that. And I think it is something that we can easily avoid by just
being much more thoughtful in checking. Thanks, Councillor. Can I just double cheque
when you're talking about the private rented sector, are you checking the ones that we
procure for as temporary accommodation or the one where we just every single one that
we procure as temporary accommodation? There's lots of inspection cheques that we do. We always
go and visit, get certificates, get EPCs, cheque they are a good and fit and proper landlord.
So they are all inspected, those properties. But I do take your point about the other.
It just seems that, I mean I don't want to go into the point about this case.
Yeah, no they do, we have to inspect them. But it looks like that case seemed to have
slipped through the net. Right, okay. But we have to go and inspect
to make sure. And even those ones that we discharge, where we discharge duty and there
as a priority need, we always go and inspect before we even give a, you know, do a, give
a place a tenant there. So we always have to go, we always go and inspect. And we found
out other borrowers don't. They don't go and inspect. They just go and say, give the rent
deposit and off you go. So we're always really careful. There might be one. I'd be interested
to know. I can always cheque with that. But thank you for the Wi -Fi, because I don't think
we do have that as our checklist. So that's quite, that would be really useful. Because
Now when we started looking at block booking agreements,
that's one of the things that we're looking at.
When we even procure properties now,
we put a whole list about having furniture, cots, Wi -Fi,
and storage.
We're starting to ask for that.
But it's a useful point.
Thank you.
Just follow up with one more.
Can you very quickly, because we have had a long time on this,
very good, productive conversation.
I'm happy to give up if you feel that's right.
I thought that it might be helpful for this committee to say that the five demands that
we were told about, about which we have no idea as to what the quantum is, is whether
the department should do some work to identify and actually give us some quantum.
I think it's difficult to make decisions without quantum, and I think one of the one decisions
that we could make tonight that would be helpful is to ask the department to do some digging
and give some figures for it.
Yes, thank you for that intervention. So I'm just about to come to Councillor Stock, but
then I will come to Chofia and Patrick in case you want to say anything else. You don't
have to.
I wanted to just ask a question about Wi -Fi actually, and I think Councillor Govindi kind
of started the question. Just to understand a little bit more about the point that was
made before, and I think you have touched on a little bit in your answers just then
around – just for me, first of all, just understanding the process a little bit. So
when we're procuring PRS units, can I confirm what the position is in terms of what we ask
for in those contracts with those landlords? Do we ask for provision of Wi -Fi? And again,
just on the Wi -Fi point, do we provide it for free for those that we house within our
own stock. Yeah just those two questions just to understand a little bit. So I think as
Ms Nazir indicated we need to make a distinction between accommodation that
is what I'll term as a regular private sector tenancy where we're helping the
family and the homelessness and accommodation where we're providing it
as temporary accommodation. I think it's right that we don't at the moment insist
that every placement has hard, wired, or wireless Wi -Fi.
And that's not traditionally been something
that's come into our duties, because it's an accommodation
duty.
Increasingly, though, with the way
web -enabled services are now so prevalent,
it's something that's been highlighted very, very much.
You can't do your homework now with a pencil.
you have to do it online, et cetera, et cetera.
So it is an issue.
It's not something at the moment which
we insist in all occasions, as far as I'm aware.
But when we have larger schemes, so we've
got quite a few in Croydon, we do
make sure we collect information about people having Wi -Fi.
And also, we can signpost those for data banks
and how you can get laptops and mobiles.
But in terms of the free Wi -Fi, for example,
in Nightingale Square, they put community fibre down
so it's low -cost Wi -Fi.
So that nobody really gets free Wi -Fi across the counter stock
or even in hostel, so it's access to what you can have.
But we are making sure as part of the five asks about whenever
we do block bookings, we're trying to get more sites,
like what is now called the Constitutional House, which
the tuition site is called.
That's what we're asking for, making sure
we know what furnishing's in there, what storage is in there.
We're specifying it out before we're even beginning to lease it.
But yeah, the tide is changing to make sure that information is there.
And if they don't have that access to those kind of mobile phones or laptops, we start signposting.
Tofin, do you have anything actually you'd like to say?
Yeah, just really quickly, the next forum is on the 10th of December 12 to 2 o 'clock,
so anyone is invited to join us.
And I think the discussion that we'll prioritise that we agreed on the last meeting,
the community lunch was that we would look at a review of existing storage options and the partnerships to be expanded.
So kind of findings and proposals from the counsellors that will attend, as well as any update on the January information pack.
Thank you for having us.
Thank you very much for coming.
And we've got some very defined next steps.
We've got lots of ideas to take forward.
And no simply, I know to actually get some solid data,
you can help that with us, but at the council,
we can surely do something as well.
Yeah?
Just to clarify then, are we resolving to make
that recommendation that that work happens?
And I think we should commit to that,
have it minuted that that's the will of the committee,
if there's a majority in support.
I guess I would take it differently.
I would like the committee to try and think we could be a little bit more specific on
the two areas that have been mentioned by those who have attended tonight.
I think we can send those recommendations to Cabinet to think about ways or explore
ways of providing free, safe and secure storage.
No doubt when the Cabinet then considers that decision, they will have more information
than perhaps we do today.
But I don't – I think from what we've heard tonight, there are some quite specific
And I think it would be worse us taking them to cabinet for them to consider on providing
free safe storage to all of those in temporary accommodation.
If we wanted to be more specific, if members of the committee felt that was too broad,
we could say at least within our own council stock, those that we directly provide or that
those that are in PRS for nonresident leaseholders.
And then I think maybe there is something around, very specific around committing to
to add provision of Wi -Fi into those PRS tendencies that we procure, if I've understood that correctly.
And like I said, I think that additional information that clearly we don't have in front of us,
and it is a shame, you know, that that will be in front of Cabinet, and they can take
that into account and provide that in their explanation if they don't feel able to agree
those recommendations in full.
And they might say, you know, there's a work in progress, or they might be able to agree
part of them but not all of them. I think it would be good to be specific about what we've asked.
Yes, so I think we can agree to be specific and it's about whether we want to have a broad ask
and then Cabinet will have the information and then make the decision based on that.
Yeah, I think there's absolutely agreement on specificity and that Cabinet should have the data
so that they can form a policy around it which we can then take a view on as a committee
It even when that is then implemented
But I also think that broader asked just about getting the data that we know we know it just at least in part and getting
Visibility of that might be useful for strengthening the understanding of this policy area amongst members of the committee
Absolutely. Thank you for your interest and cancer ticket
Yeah, so I think we can definitely
What I can definitely commit to is that we we need to work out
which places have
Wi -Fi, which places have buildings which can't get Wi -Fi, which are the places where, and
I've said this very honestly at the forum already, there are some placements we make
particularly where we just cannot be responsible for the Wi -Fi.
They're in a private letting arrangement with a landlord, they've got to work out with the
landlord, and if the landlord blocks them then we can get involved.
But there are going to be certain circumstances because of the range of TA.
So I think we are already in the process of how we implement
the five basics within the range of different temporary
accommodation stock that we control.
And so that does.
What I'm not going to say is my office has spent loads of time
going into total granular detail, but a broad brush.
Where are we?
Where do we stand with the processes
that we have on meeting those five basics?
How many places don't have cooking facilities?
How many places don't have internet? And then we have to explain why and there
might be a good reason and I'll own that. How many places where storage is a
difficult one because there will be some people who it's about the it's about I
think managing very people with very different amounts of stuff in very
different types of accommodation and so I think affordability and making sure
nobody nobody's like cost of living or hitting the bottom line is being
affected by storage. I can't commit at this meeting, I think we can take it to cabinet
that we explore what free storage looks like. But, you know, there'll be some properties
we give that just have more storage space than some that have left so we have to be
targeted. And I think on the final point, which is about cooking facilities, again,
I said at the forum last time that there might have to be trade offs between the five basics
and better choice of area.
So in the TA option, I think sometimes you
have to say, well, we can give you some of the five basics,
but you might be further out of Barra,
or you might be in some council -owned accommodation
in Barra, but it isn't self -contained.
You have to share a bathroom.
And it's up to you to decide.
So we give some consent and control over to the tenant,
but we recognise that there is a little bit of a trade -off
here, which is that we own some stuff in the Barra,
But it isn't self -contained.
And if you really want self -contained,
you have to take the risk that you might not be in borough.
So I think it's definitely worth us coming back
to you as a committee with a rough lay of the land of which
properties fall into where, and then a decision around, OK,
we actually.
And I think that taking something around storage
to cabinet, I'm fully up for.
But does that make sense?
Because in some ways, this isn't a new thing.
We have been working on this.
And I just want to make sure that we're honest at this stage
with you about where we've got to in some of our decision
making.
So there is something there about,
and it's come up before this meeting,
about transparent communications.
And I'd just like to note that it's ever so important
to make sure that all the communications
and the decision making is open and accessible to all,
regardless of English as additional language,
for example, or anything else.
Just to very quickly respond to that.
and I know Councillor Govindi wants to come in.
I think a proportionate approach is obviously
what we need, right?
Not excessive granular detail.
But it sounds like there's a possibility
we can get a report here, a progress report, essentially,
just updating this committee on the journey
this council has been on before the election next year.
My point in asking for information is because we were looking for figures and there were no figures on the table to look at.
And then we were being asked to make a decision without figures and I don't feel comfortable about making any decisions without figures.
And if the Cabinet feels that they have got enough information, so be it.
In which case, I do hope that that information will be shared with us in advance of the decisions.
But frankly, because I'd like to see both the quantum of need, the cost of meeting that need,
but also the cabinet needs to consider, in a sense, the relative impacts on our own existing tenants.
Lisa O. Tenant simply said it.
But think of something like storage.
It is a constant issue on our estates.
There are families who feel that they don't have enough storage
capacity or space.
And so you need to be mindful about giving somebody
more than others and so on.
I just hope that that balanced decision will be made.
But those figures and the basis on which that decision is made
is shared with us, in a sense, before the decision,
rather than saying, 100%.
Yeah, yeah.
My point was actually to agree with you,
which is that I can't commit to free storage for everyone
at this meeting, but to bring to you
the real implications of what that would mean ahead
of a cabinet decision, of course, exactly.
I think we agree on that.
Yes.
Final point.
I just wanted to make a more general point about data.
So just to assure the committee that we treat data seriously,
I mean, data -driven decision -making is really kind of one of my mantras, I'd say.
And the data we have, there's lots of it, but
often it's difficult to produce, difficult to generate.
Takes time away, takes officers' time that should be better spent on the ground,
directly delivering services and dealing with residents.
So we've got quite a lot of effort,
well an awful lot of effort I'd say,
being put into again, slicker on data production
and again slicker on, you said that data for whatever,
yeah for whatever topics before you as a committee though,
we're hoping to have slicker data packs for all we do
in the not too distant future, put it that way.
That's good to hear.
So we have heard that we are going to ask cabinet to consider this, have a data led
approach and it will come back to the committee before decision is made.
Yep, wonderful.
Okay, so we'll close on this item and as I've said you're very welcome to stay and listen
but also you might want to call it a day and continue your life elsewhere.
Thank you so much for coming. We've really benefited from hearing from you.

3 Cleaner Borough Phase 2 (Paper No.25-406)

Okay, so the next item is the, I'm just trying to get the actual proper name of it,
the Cleaner Borough Phase 2 paper.
So obviously this is a paper that's covering
streetscape, housing estates,
residential street properties and so on.
So when we, we'll have a presentation,
but then when we come to the questions,
we do need to be obviously focusing
on the housing element for it.
Thank you chair. I'm Natasha Epstein, director of Wason Street Cleansing.
So I'm going to touch on the general paper. So as you mentioned, it is a shared paper between housing and what was the previous environment department.
Obviously we're all now in the same resident services directorate.
So we were already working very closely together on all of our projects and reports.
So it just makes sense for us all to be together.
And so I was going to just introduce firstly the
The contract change that led to a lot of this this is and this is touched on in the report the cleaner bar phase one
And because that did have considerable implications for council estates
So particularly the replacements of the vehicles that had a huge impact in reducing
Miscallections we know that the service change led to lots of missed collections
and I'm sure you as ward councillors experienced that, but that has
Through a lot of management and you'll see that in the report. We've got those missed collections down to target
So the missed collections on estates are generally now the vehicles are not breaking down has reduced considerably
and the other big improvement for estates is the collection of
Side recycling so that was causing problems in in the past in terms of bins overflowing
and that has made a big improvement plus increased our recycling rate.
So the headline aside of the
mis -collections coming down is the huge improvement in the borough recycling
rate that the estates will have contributed to
and from 22 .6 % up to nearly 30%.
So
really pleased with that, we're not stopping there
And so this is just an update on some of the projects that have been done.
So the other big thing that has a big impact or is connected to estates or we spend a lot
of time discussing is the free bulkie way service.
And so we've got a very good data -led map that looks at where bookings are.
And we focused on why the estates are booking those, taking advantage of those less.
So we have a lot of discussions around that and the implications of why, how we can encourage
it.
You will have seen that there's been additional advertising in the Home Life magazine and
posters up around the estates to encourage people to do it.
Generally it is complicated because they haven't got anywhere to leave that bulky waste for
a collection.
So someone might have booked it as a collection but then it's viewed as a fly tip and cleared
as a fly tip.
So we do ask residents to label it as a bulky waste, but generally people wouldn't do that and so there is a challenge around that
and one of the
Proposals that we're looking to introduce which Tom will introduces the designated areas for bulky waste
Obviously the CCTV officer obviously works across
Estates and on and on the public highway, and he's been very good at trying to
to capture people that are fly tipping is challenging.
Most of our fly tips are a person leaving a bag
or a person leaving a sofa,
and obviously it's really hard to identify that person.
Those cameras are generally good
for large -scale fly tipping,
but we can try and follow people around
to try and work out and get.
And we have issued some FPNs for fly tipping
so that is working,
and we'll carry on doing that moving forwards.
And then the last thing I just wanted to touch on
was around the mega skips.
So again, they are placed on council estates.
They tend to get less filled up in the same way
that bulky waste is less used on council estates,
whether that's because people are getting rid of less stuff
or it's being cleared as fly tipping already.
We're not quite sure.
We carry on putting them out.
And we have got a reused charity coming to those events
now since June.
So they will take away anything that is reusable.
That's our preference to try and not get it disposed of,
and we'll carry on working towards that in the future.
That is it from me, so I'm gonna pass it on.
Thank you.
So as Natasha described,
improving waste and recycling management
is a key priority for our housing estates.
Back in December 2023,
we set out a kind of range of measures
to address those issues.
And since that time,
In addition to what Natasha's described, we increased the refuse and
recycling storage capacity across the priority estates where necessary.
And we also replaced damaged bins,
leading to nearly 1 ,000 new bins being installed across our estates.
And then across the priority estates, bin locations were also reviewed to ensure
that they were convenient for residents and sort of best placed.
And that worked to review capacity bin locations and the condition of the bins
is going to continue across the rest of our housing estates with that process completing by the end of 2026.
And in that paper in December 23, we set out a proposal to instal new bin enclosures
to sort of surround the external refuse and recycling bins.
And they had new signage installed as part of that.
So we've installed 200 of those to date.
And there's an example, a photo at page 11 on the papers of the storm refuse enclosures on the Alton Estate.
We've got 100 more of those on order.
And I suppose an example of us sort of listening to resident feedback is that when those were initially installed,
they had a sort of aperture that was a particular size for people to put the waste through.
But quite a bit of the feedback we had from residents was that the bags wouldn't fit through very easily when they were trying to use them.
So in response to that, we spoke to the contractor
and they've increased the size of the aperture
in all the new enclosures that were put in
and they'll retrofit a larger enclosure
where needed as well.
And as Natasha alluded to,
the enforcement seems increased in size,
so there's probably a lot more,
there is a lot more enforcement being undertaken
on the housing estates
than perhaps there has been in the past.
And as you're probably aware,
there's a really extensive CTV network
across the housing estates
and we have more deployable cameras than never before.
So those are really important tool in that enforcement team
using those cameras and then being able to identify
those responsible for fly tipping
and issuing fixed penalty notices.
Now we know that fly tipping remains an issue
on our estates and there was some discussion
at the Borough Residence Forum last week
about some additional measures that we intend
to put in place to address that.
So again, as Natasha mentioned, we're looking at
trialling some designated bulky waste collection points
on our estates to allow residents to leave their waste there
so rather than leaving them kind of outside their block,
possibly blocking entrances, et cetera,
they will be able to put them in a designated place
on the estate and we'll also be consulting with residents
and RAs on that estate about where that
bulky waste collection area should be.
and we'll review that trial in spring next year
to see how successful that's been.
There are also some plans to roll out
the storm bin enclosures more extensively
across our housing estates,
and to introduce an additional bulky waste collection
vehicle in each contract area
to try to increase the speed at which
fly tipping is removed.
And as part of that, we'll be looking at
additional cleaning inspector
to increase cleaning monitoring
and assist with the programme of installing the bin enclosures.
So we've made some good progress in improving refuse and recycling provision across the
housing estates.
We're obviously committed to continuing to listen to residents' concerns and address
those through further improvement work.
So we're happy to come back to this committee in future to report on progress.
And Natasha and I will be happy to take any questions that people may have.
Thank you very much, both of you.
Yeah for the the joint presentation and and yeah, it's of residents all coming up with lots of very, you know
interesting ideas and I just realised actually one of the additional forms the area housing panels and
Sometimes that's quite good way to like late feedback
So yeah, that that could be one additional route for ideas for you
And so the questions and so cancer convenient and then cancer free
Can I, before I ask the question of the office,
a question for you really in a way.
I know that this paper went about a residence forum
and we don't have any in a sense feedback.
I know Tom's here and he probably can speak to it,
but we don't have any formal feedback
as to what is it that they said.
I mean, having a shared paper,
it'd be useful to actually have some sort of insight
from them, which is unfortunate.
So perhaps you come to that. Can I just on my questions, the officers, I'll pick on two things.
One is about the availability of recycling bags on estates and I read what you read in the report and I understand that.
But I do know that there have been instances where residents who have been referred to the library have gone to the library and not found the supply of recycling bags being available.
And something like Southfield's library, where it's just surrounded by lots of estates, it probably runs out of bags more quickly than others do.
So I don't know what proactive cheques are being made so that the libraries never run out of it.
I mean, I was surprised when the librarian and her partner complained to me to bring
the complaint to the council because they weren't getting bags on a regular basis.
That's one point.
The other is on the food recycling.
How's that going on the estates, both take -up and so on, and a little pernicative point
about cleaning the food bins every six months.
I think that might be too short, particularly in the summer months, I mean too long a period,
given the communal nature of the bins on the states.
And I think you might want to review that arrangement that in the summer months,
it may be more frequent than six monthly.
Just a thought.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
I completely agree on the last point about how many times the food bins need to be cleaned
during the summer months.
But I do think Tom Crawley talked about that there's a new regime that said they're going to be cleaned six times a year.
There's two new vehicles that come out.
And I think what we want to do is also have them responsible for cleaning all the new enclosures coming online.
And in fact, if they have power washers, what's the capability there?
But I will say that the food recycling bins are being used.
They do smell a little bit in the summer, but I do think they also help with the raw rubbish not going in the actual bins.
So, I mean, it admits that.
One other thing about, and we talked about this at the Borough Residence Forum, is about the pick ups,
the two free pick ups, which basically focus on the council by the very fact that you talked about that.
We don't have anywhere to put this stuff.
And people don't label it.
we get to a flat, everyone gets to a property.
We did talk about, and this might be farther down the line,
about sharing the allocations in the estates
and having the RAs involved,
where RAs want to be involved.
And I think that's actually, that could happen
and that could work because all the RAs do deal with it.
And because what happens now is that
very few people seem to be using it,
very few people seem to be labelling it,
And it ends up with the Pinnacle or those groups picking it up for their contracts of
bulky waste.
Or if the council does come out, and I haven't really seen it, they're obviously separate
vehicles.
They don't always pick up everything that's allocated because there's a certain inventory
that can be left out.
So people are confused about that.
And so ultimately it is just left out there and then we have to call and get Pinnacle
or whatever cleaning service to come out and pick that up.
So it does almost create a flight tipping,
more of a flight tipping problem.
So I think there's ways around that,
if we can get more information on sharing those numbers.
Or, you know, conversely, maybe we get more mega skips
and we don't get the two pickups.
I don't know if that could be allocated.
Something like that, where it's more practical
for the estates.
Yeah, on the bulky waste, possibly even having a sticker
for people to place on the items or communications
might be an opportunity.
Councillor Covington, you're going back
to the Borough Residence Forum.
So previously it was Borough Residence Forum,
report comes here, the report goes to Cabinet
and there's been a change there, hasn't there?
But so that's something that we could certainly
email round to members of the committee.
I think actually in fact he never went to the cabinet before.
It was the housing, borough residents forum reported housing committee
and that's where it basically stayed.
It informed our debate and discussions on matters of interest to tenants.
Largely never went to cabinet, certainly not in my time anyway.
But it is just important.
We're discussing a paper that they have discussed
and their views are not in front of us
And the whole idea is that we should come up with a view which is actually a shared view.
This is not a contentious area.
This is about improving something for residents on their daily living.
And we just don't have that feel in there.
I know Tom's been very helpful in it, but there are more voices there.
From what I understand, it is published.
I think you're right, though, that you're saying that you want to email to the only, I think,
I know, two of us, there are two people on your side who were literally there.
So it's not us hiding anything because many of us sat through it and watched the discussion
and can bring the...
Councillor Stokes, myself and Councillor Graham were at the task and finish meeting.
We could say, you can carry on what you like, we know everything we need to know because
you were there.
But that's not the point.
The point is, in a sense, it's part of our information fact to inform our decisions and
discussions.
And it's not top secret, as you're quite right to say it.
It just happens to list.
Absolutely.
It's publicly published and I think we can go a step further and send it round.
My point wasn't that I don't think it's a good idea. My point is that there is no conspiracy here to find anything.
I think, let me be absolutely honest, when the mood is to have less and less come to us,
I mean this is a pretty thin agenda, not worth waking up for frankly,
but when the mood is that's what we're going to do, everything that you can get rid of,
you just get rid of it, it's right decision to get rid of it or not.
Just be thoughtful.
Council Gavinger, thank you for raising that because resident voice is really important to us,
for more channels and informal channels.
And so, yes, it is in the public domain, but we can highlight it to ensure that people are reading it
because we want people to be reading it.
But, yeah, maybe the agenda is light, but we have had two hours of very good contributions
from everyone so far.
Yeah, please.
Yeah, I was going to just mention the recycling sacks and the cleaning of the food waste bins.
Yes, we agree that the schedule of cleaning is our normal schedule twice a year for refuse and recycling bins.
So Wandsworth is one of the leaders in terms of getting these onto our estates before lots of other boroughs
because the decision was made before the new legislation came out.
So we already had orders in place before legislation got announced.
So we are pretty much next week we will be almost 100 %
of all council housing properties will have access to a food waste service.
And then we're about 70 % through the borough.
So we'll be working our way through the rest of the private estates.
So it is being well used.
We are pleased with that as a service.
But we also agree during the summer it will need to be washed more often
And that's why we're looking to get a specific
Vehicle so our normal bin washing contractor hasn't got capacity to increase that frequency
So we're going to invest in a vehicle that will do that bespoke collection
So and once we've got that vehicle it washes in a contained thing on site
Rather than because often you have to do what we call a bin swap you bring a new bin and you take a new bin
and then it gets washed and that comes with challenges about the bin having to be empty
when you take it away.
So by washing it on site you can, in a contained environment, we're just working on what to
do with the waste water at the moment.
So we will have a solution before next summer for sure.
The recycling sacks, obviously we did do a trial on the Willing Williston about giving
people recycling sacks because it is always a question and an ask from residents.
It didn't really make any difference in terms of how much recycling or how reducing contamination.
So contamination is a huge problem on estates where there's less ownership over a bin
and more confusion about what goes in that bin.
So obviously it might have improved customer satisfaction,
but it also we're really nervous about producing a lot of single -use plastic.
you know, as an authority, we're already producing a lot of single -use plastic for our curbside service.
We do have a container to collect that recycling, so that is one of the reasons why we don't blanketly distribute them.
Obviously, distributing them to every flat would be quite costly in itself and quite an operational challenge.
So that's why the libraries, we think, is the best.
It's not a perfect solution, but it's the best solution.
It allows people that want to use those sacks to carry their recycling down to the bins to access it.
We do do weekly deliveries to those libraries.
Unfortunately, libraries are limited on space and obviously they want to focus their space for the community and books,
not so much for recycling and food sacks.
So we, where libraries are running out more often, we have asked librarians to notify us and we can deliver extra deliveries.
I know sometimes people wait, they know what day they get delivered into the library, and
it's almost like flies swarming in to collect them.
But we will flag that Southfields is a challenge, and we'll try and get some extra deliveries
in there.
There is always a peak around the time, so we do blanket deliveries to curbside houses
twice a year.
So as you get close to that next delivery, people start running out, so that is when
there is an increased demand.
So it is possible, we have just completed that in October, so you will have seen the
impact from the houses will have impacted in that demand in libraries as well.
But yes, we can constantly keep an eye on those supplies for you.
Councillor Fraser.
Thank you.
And I think that was the point I was going to make.
I do think that it's certainly experience in Balaam is that people know when they're coming and then there'll be a really healthy supply one day
and they'll be like, oh, but I went back and then like yeah, but everyone had heard that they got they were there and then they've all gone.
But thank you for the update and actually you talked about the trial at William Willison which actually led on to my question.
It was, so following that trial is trying to understand what if you're thinking about anything next there,
but also because this is on page nine in paragraph 20,
it talks about the priority estates.
It would have been nice in here
if there was any kind of feedback
or quotes from any residents on anything
that they might have seen different or change happen
as a result of being a priority estate in that sense,
and have we got any kind of resident sentiment
or feedback from those areas as a result of the work there?
The priority states that had resident associations,
we liaise with them in preparation for this paper
to get some feedback.
That was primarily on the storm enclosures, to be honest,
because that's the most visible
and the largest investment in that area.
Aside from that, it was probably to do with
just making sure there was enough bins capacity -wise.
The enclosures, obviously, introducing them
has a big aesthetic impact,
and it has the new signage on it as well.
and the feedback from the resident associations
that came back to me was that they'd made a big difference,
they were very positive about them.
There was that mention, obviously, about the apertures,
which obviously I referred to when talking about the paper.
And there was also some feedback in certain locations,
I think a bit like the food enclosures,
they can get a bit dirty, the actual enclosures.
So we're looking at how we might be able to clean those.
At the moment, the cleaning contractors will do it
on an ad hoc basis.
Obviously the more enclosures we put in,
we might have to think about how we actually
clean the enclosures themselves.
The weather does it to an extent,
but in some locations that doesn't seem to work,
particularly when you've got to the bird mess, et cetera.
I was just gonna touch on the Willing -Willison,
because that was the estate that we did
loads of interventions and trial
before that fed into the remaining priority estates
and the sort of intervention.
So we did quite a lot of focus groups with individuals and to kind of get their input into what was working
How interested they were in recycling what the barriers were so and we have got quite a lot of data from those surveys
And so so we I'm happy to share that data and so that that sort of contributed to the increase in in
Satisfaction and but yeah, there's there's wider information available on that
Councillor Stock.
Thank you.
I was fortunate actually to be at the BRF, so I just wanted to pick up a couple of points
just on the bulky waste and mega skips that were mentioned by residents there.
It was just more on the awareness of bulky waste.
I was quite surprised in a way that there was still some lack of awareness around the
offer and suggest to think about I think there was discussion around attendance
welcome pack and making sure that we're landing this offer amongst other offers
in that and I think that's in progress and I think that's really good news and
I think we're involving residents and kind of how we write that so I think
that's that's fantastic but clearly there is more more work for us to do
whilst us in the town hall might be well aware of it clearly not all residents
across the the borough are and then I think there was a particular issue as
well about awareness of landlords on our housing estate who are renting out their
properties privately and how we can increase their awareness of the offer to
be able to pass it on to tenants because there is quite a lot of churn on our
housing estates as a result of that it was perceived and therefore how can we
make sure that rent residents when they are moving out at the end of their
tenants they are perhaps taking up this this offer as well so I was trying to
think is there opportunity within our own kind of if we're thinking making every contact
count so I don't know residents contact us to cancel their council tax for example notifying
as they're moving are we proactively then at that point in time when they're making
that kind of contact to cancel the council tax saying do you know this is an offer have
you used it because that was something that was raised in relation to bulky waste and
And then the interesting thing, I think, was a bit of confusion as to the difference in
the offer in a way and what we meant by each.
I think there's definitely an issue in relation to bulky waste as the presentation of the
waste, which you talked about before.
It's not as easy if you're not in a street -founded property to just put it in front of your property.
So I think there definitely are challenges that you've identified.
But just on the – and then moving on to the mega -skips, again, just an awareness point.
And it kind of feels a little bit like seeing is believing.
Some residents, they just haven't seen the mega -skip.
So when residents were talking about, oh,
can we come together and can we share slots?
We feel that there's a lot of people
who want to get rid of a lot of stuff in our local area.
Well, that sounds like a mega -skip to me.
But I don't know if we're clear about how
residents can ask for them.
As I understand what you're saying in the paper,
we're using 14 locations.
We've got 22 wards.
So we haven't even.
I know there might be double up in some wards,
and we might think there's not need in other wards,
but we're not even hitting every ward
it would seem at the moment.
So is that right?
Kind of what are we doing to make sure
that residents know how to ask for one
if they think there's one in another area,
kind of to grow that offer again,
or to kind of prioritise different areas
who might actually have an untapped need.
So mega -SCIPS, we'll both probably answer this.
So Meg Skips is fantastic but comes with some challenges in the name that they are mega.
So actually trying to get them onto housing estates can be a challenge.
Finding a space that is big enough to put it, getting through parked cars to put it
in that space is a challenge.
We can certainly explore if there are alternative locations that are not being serviced.
Also as we've touched on, residents in flats don't have anywhere to store materials to
and wait for a mega -skip.
So I have a loft, I have a shed,
I have a garage that I squirrel things away in,
but residents in flats don't have any of that.
So that comes with a challenge as well.
And you can't time your sofa delivery
with when the mega -skip is coming.
That's why the free bulky waste is easier,
because you've got that flexibility to have it.
But we can certainly review it.
Communications around services, as I'm sure you know,
is always a challenge.
We have absolutely flooded the place with bulky waste comms.
You know, you can't, hopefully you've seen them on big billboards and, you know,
and poster sites, because people in the states don't just live on the states, they travel around the borough.
So, but we can always do more to get that message out.
I think the council's acts is a really good suggestion because inevitably if you move house
you might have some sort of bulky waste to get rid of.
It is going in Home Life, the next edition, and has almost been in every Home Life, I
think.
So, but again, if people don't read it, they don't know about it.
But no, hopefully if counsellors can help spread that message, then we can do some more.
I would just add, I mean, I think one of the things that we will be doing is we have an
ability for our housing management software system to send text messages to our residents.
So we will start doing that in advance of bulky
Megascapes going on our estates so that our residents are aware of that probably just a day or two before
And then in addition to that
The
What we do sometimes
And probably could do more is make sure or try and time the bulky waste collections around
Certain things that we are aware of say for example on the York Road
Winstanley Estate, when we knew that people,
a lot of people were gonna be moving from,
you know, into broad mansions, for example,
we made sure there's sort of mega skip
around that sort of time.
So yeah, we can perhaps be a bit smarter around that,
but we do also respond to demand from residents.
So you know, our teams obviously talk to each other,
and if we know that we as housing officers
and our estate services team know there's an estate
where there's a flight issue, we're more likely to ask
for there to be a mega skip place there in the near future.
I just want to turn to fly tipping on the states and Mr. Crawley will know of my case
at Gresham Hall Road estate.
The issue remains unresolved and continues partly because there is obviously a number
of people who bring stuff and leave it where the normal waste collection point is.
And that's what I'm really considering, what sort of quality of CCTV surveillance are we investing in.
Because it needs to be good and images need to be sufficiently clear so that action, if necessary, can be taken.
At the moment I am told that whilst there is footage, they can work out who that person was.
So that's no good, really, frankly.
It's a plea.
Don't expect a response to that.
One other suggestion in that is around the Alton.
I mean, because of the number of flats left to students,
at the change of student academic year,
there is a whole amount of stuff that
gets chucked out by students.
And sometimes if the flats are being redone,
there's a lot of building material.
And I'm sure we know those units and I just wish we could be more proactive about saying,
well it's coming up to that time of the year and this is how you could get rid of it.
Or this is, or even, but yeah, or put a skip there or whatever, I don't know.
Otherwise it's quite a messy two, three weeks that the residents have put up with.
They cheque it out in July, the newsrooms don't come until September and then they have a
storage problem.
And if you don't mind, I've just got a quick question about, so we've got the nine priority
states and they're the ones with established residents associations.
But rolling it out, it'd be nice to see if we can sort of, for those that haven't been
included this time and they don't have residence associations but possibly want them.
Whether something can be done to expediate the services for
them at some point, so just to create a little bit more of a level playing field.
Yeah, I should clarify, not all of the priority states have residence associations.
It's just a number of them did and they were the people that we spoke to in relation to getting
feedback on the changes that we'd implemented.
But what we will do is kind of roll out equally,
I suppose, to all the other estates
the same sort of improvements.
And each time we do so, we will speak
to the resident association before we do anything
to kind of let them know what we're planning
and consult with them on it.
And if there isn't a resident association,
then we'll, for example, in relation to the placement
of bin enclosures, we'll be writing to all the residents
and saying, look, this is what we're proposing to do.
You know, do you have any comments or concerns in relation to this and if you can?
Include the ward counsellors as well, then they might be able to sort of facilitate that work
Yeah, that's the stock
Yes, thank you. Just just on the rollout
I do think they look really smart and a trace in a picture here of the Alton but we've got some on
In my ward on the Winstanley estate and they do look really smart
They haven't stopped the fly tipping and side loads next to them and unfortunately
But they are definitely an improvement, so thank you for that.
I just was also interested in the broader rollout.
You touched on it kind of orally in your summary, but do you have a timeline for rollout, borough -wide,
and do we have a cost for that?
Can you talk about cost in the paper for what we've delivered so far?
But I would just be interested in how that vision for the borough -wide offer.
We estimate around three years to roll out across all the other estates,
but what we're proposing to do is have a sort of new host who will be a cleaning inspector,
but also help project manage that.
Because the rollout that we've undertaken so far was done really by the area housing team,
sort of in addition to all the other work that they've done.
So I'm hoping and expecting that by having a dedicated position to assist with it, we'll
be able to roll it out more quickly than we have done already.
It's a relatively straightforward thing to do in terms of identifying locations and then
putting the order in and then obviously being placed there.
What I'm just cautious of is obviously we want to make sure that we're putting them
in the right places for residents and that we're consulting with them properly.
So there is a set time scale really for each estate.
and we'll put together a kind of proper project plan for which estates we'll be doing and when to obviously share with members.
So that's the intention at present.
Just a really quick follow up on just where they go. Again on this photo you've got the rubbish next to the recycling.
Again, recently on an estate in my own ward, residents were feeding back about recycling and rubbish being in different places across the estate
and that being a challenge, so again,
just interested in that kind of vision,
and you don't have to answer it now,
around where possible, trying to co -locate
the different types of bins.
I think that's certainly our intention.
Obviously it's a kind of case -by -case issue,
because some estates, there just isn't the space
to put all the bins in one particular place,
but where we can and we will do,
and one of the other things that we will see
if residents are interested in is
possibly closing off refuse shoots in some locations.
If they're not well used or not popular,
or we've got issues with them kind of blocking regularly,
it might be the case that residents would rather
we just close them off, and when they're in,
we have external refuse instead.
But obviously that's something we'd consult with residents
on to see if they were supportive of.
Can I bring in Thomas Clockenen, please?
Sorry, can I just come in quickly on that?
Just from my perspective, we would always rather co -locate,
because recycling is a barrier by the fact
that you have to go somewhere else to do it more often than not outside of the building.
And our food waste housing units, we've always tried to co -locate with recycling as much as possible with the new enclosures.
So to create those areas as well.
Just a quick question.
I understand that the recycling, I've just seen it in practise, the sideways is now being removed, which is a huge step.
But just to clarify, the rubbish sideways that is in the bin enclosures,
Is that also contractually the obligated CERCO to pick that up as well?
I mean that seems to be happening, but not all the time because we have overflowing bins
in certain sections of the state where it isn't democratic.
Some bin enclosures don't have anything and some areas are just completely chug full and
it's a real nightmare for the CERCO guys.
But I just, yeah.
So that was always included in the contract.
It was just an anomaly that I think as recycling was added as a, you know, by osmosis over
time that it was a bin collection rather than a clear roll so yeah we just kind of made
that change to be consistent.
Mrs. Graham then Mrs. Farrah.
Thank you chair. I'm actually looking visioning forward from this paper. I think there's great
discussion at the borough housing definitely. It's interesting about the rollout and then we have the
task and finish with the stock conditions and the changes there and then I'm looking at next steps.
I'm looking at the new structure. I'm looking at transitioning and as the housing department
is being abolished in its present structure from the 1st of October and looking at this paper
and comments such as Ben's recycling and things that have been, which will impact on our housing
as regards to the cleaner borough. My question is, how are you considering transitioning
or what will take place? I mean, for instance, things will have to go to places, offices
will have to move to different places. And I'm thinking, would you be considering a state
services, moving into waste services, you know, with environmental services. And the
most important thing is the monitoring of our council estates. I mean that is, and I
have a second question if, after what you're saying, I think that would be come to the
So, I don't quite get that, but what I would say is that of course there's no abolition
of the housing department.
It is a different structure.
So you have got me here tonight.
So I think the broad point I would make is you have already witnessed tonight closer
and closer collaboration between offices of the former environment directorate and offices
of the former housing directorate.
Tom and Natasha have been working more and more closely across the last couple of years
and they are now within that one structure, within that one leadership team, of the opportunity
to ever more collaborate and make a greater difference for our residents within the states.
That's the plan, to build on that start and to do that in whatever way makes sense.
So to that extent, yes, there's more and more further and further transformation, but there's
no kind of target or date hanging around July next year.
I was just putting the way you were going with your discussions. It does look as if
that's what you're proposing to do. But my second question, I always fight for our
leaseholders. As this is taking place and you're becoming more sort of – more consolidated,
How will you structure leasehold charges and who would it go to in the future if there
are issues?
I know you're going to have an online, but at the conference you said go to your state
manager.
Now the state manager has a heck of a lot on her plate in any case and as I know from
and working with Mr Crawley, leaseholders don't let go until they've got answers.
And as you would agree, Mr Crawley, with what we're dealing with at the moment.
So how will you manage leaseholders?
It can't ever be the same again because the structures and responsibilities are changing,
in my small mind anyway.
Structures and responsibilities, for example, in that respect, aren't changing.
There was a promise that that, it's not obviously, sorry to, it's not absolutely relevant to
this paper, is there?
But there was a promise at that conference and that promise will be there that we get
a better slicker at our presentation of information to leaseholders.
That's what will happen.
That's, yeah, that will happen.
Thank you.
Councillor Farra -Tharash.
I'm just really quickly to go back to the point on promoting bulky waste and mega skips
to on our council estate.
I assume the answer is yes, but do we have officers there at the housing road shows?
Yeah, we do.
Yeah.
Okay, great.
My question was just on flight shipping.
Often when I'm talking to residents who live on estates, they say that they get somebody
driving in, they dump off the rubbish and then they go, but they usually say that they
don't actually live on the estate or even in the borough.
So of the requests that were made to DV &A, do we know how many of those residents actually live in the borough?
If they're coming outside of the borough, flight tipping on United States and leaving?
Because obviously that would might require a different approach if they don't actually live on that estate.
But I completely understand if you don't have that information to hand as well.
I don't have that exact data to hand.
I do recollect at least two or three sort of cease -to -be videos I've seen of vans driving onto an estate, dumping on, and
being very, very happy because those were fixed penalty notices that we could then issue.
And certainly one of them looked like a trade vehicle who bought items onto the state and then just dumped it there.
And I think if people are driving onto the state, chances are they're not resident of that state.
Whether they're resident of the borough or not, I'm not sure.
I think also connected to that, one of the reasons why we want to trial the bulky waste storage areas is because we've got concerns that that might happen in those locations as well.
You know, it will be very targeted to residents living on that estate
But obviously where it does get round and there are you know
The design of certain estates makes it easier for people to drive in and dump materials
So does same tend to be sort of limited to certain places
I'm going to bring in cancer dick at home and then
cancer corner and then
cancer stock I
Don't have any of you saw the viral video from healing Council of FPN
I'll send it to you if you haven't because I think that,
and there was a, you know, people are very happy
when fly tipping gets caught and there's replications
and you know, people, our residents want it.
Our residents really want to see more FBNs.
I guess this speaks to Tom's point which is,
in the two bulky wastes, there's obviously a policy
designed to try and stop fly tipping
and try and increase the ability for people,
particularly students who might be moving out,
to not have to fly tip in some ways,
to give them an offer which incentivize better behaviour
and is easy and you can just do it.
We've all been talking about honest states.
There is a high likelihood that in the locations
where we do the free bulky waste collection,
there could be some people who chance it and place it in
and it's quite hard for us to work out whether they have,
I think we just have to try it.
Like I think if it doesn't work, we can try something else.
But at the moment, there's a lot of worry about the idea
that someone might be able to tag along and get something
for free, which is already an existing problem, I think,
with the way that this people dump on the states
because we clean it quite quickly.
And if we don't clean it quite quickly, then people are upset.
So there's a circular logic to it.
And I guess it's for us to be just very closely in touch
with our residents and the residents association
on the ground to understand how the estates work.
And I know that Tom, your point about the mega skip is that that's a solution that you could just have gone.
So sometimes you're just damned if you do, damned if you don't.
In terms of the mega skips, I'm not a fan of mega skips in the States because I don't want neighbours from coming in from and just saying, oh, isn't this a great place to dump stuff?
I don't want the mega skip.
And that happens.
And we're in a residential neighbourhood where we fight that problem every day.
What I'd like to see, and I hear what you're saying, is that you empower the residents,
all the residents, just not the RAs, all the residents in terms of these stickers or things
like that, because a lot of us just say, hey, you don't live here.
Please do not put your fly -tipping rubbish here because it negatively affects the residents
that live there.
I have older residents here that come down on Saturday and they can't put their rubbish
in here.
It affects people's lives.
That's what we say to people.
I've taken pizza boxes back to other properties.
We've taken bulky waste.
To the answer on the CCTV, we were caught on CCTV.
It's very clear moving waste around for a pickup.
A legitimate thing.
So it's very clear.
The CCT does work if you're close enough.
I mean it's crystal clear.
So in terms of the two free pickups,
I mean then we do need stickers.
is you need to empower people, the residents,
to know exactly how the process works
so that they can enforce it.
You do need resident enforcement,
whether we like that or not.
It's becoming bigger, it's becoming bigger in our state.
We do it with antisocial behaviour,
talking to kids that smoke puff in our hallways,
because it bothers people.
What we want is a better quality of life,
and we're willing to fight for it, to a certain extent,
in a polite way.
And when kids realise, hey, wow, someone really does care,
Hey, can I talk to you?
And we've handled out job fires in them,
and we've figured out different stuff,
and it does get a little bit better.
And when people from other properties come over
and dump their couch, whatever,
and we get in their face and say,
hey, you don't do this anymore, this bothers us.
It bothers us enough for them to come up to you
and you're not gonna do it anymore.
Then things change a little bit.
So we need that empowerment.
We need the stickers, we need all the information,
we need to trade, so we need to have the extra bulky way
so we can trade it.
to tell somebody, hey, a neighbour, hey, you can have mine, this is my number.
But I need to be able to talk to the enforcement team to say, hey, you know, how many do you have left?
Is that actually happening? Because we have people going out there and saying,
council pick up now. They have not even called anybody. So that's what needs to happen.
You need to work more with all residents, just not the RAs. And once they see that, you'll see,
I think, I really do see a better quality of life and more engagement, everything,
if people are empowered a little bit more.
Yes, thank you, thank you, yeah.
It's very polite, the wedding system.
I mean, when you climb over someone smoking cough,
a kid who, you know, I've gone to principals
and we sent in, you know, iPhone footage
and they're like, we know them.
And so if the principal talks to them,
at least they know someone cares, you know?
And so, you know, sometimes they don't come back.
and stuff like that.
It's not like full vigilante, but it's like,
hey, I live here, I care about this, please move on.
That's the thing, isn't it?
Because we live in such as a, you know,
sometimes so isolated and actually to come together
and just speak with people and just have a straightforward
approach and be good neighbours.
I like that.
I was talking to Jo Pemford who is Arch,
and she's like, how am I gonna do this?
and I know everyone's talking to her.
And we talked about this.
And she's like, we agreed upon.
There's a certain stigma that go to housing estates,
whether we like it or not.
I'm a lease holder.
I've lived all around the world.
Housing in the United States does not work.
Have you ever seen The Wire, any shows?
It gets black market.
It gets very ugly.
But it does kind of work here.
But we need to change the stigma,
and we need to empower people to make
them feel better about themselves.
And it does start by having a nicer place to live,
where people care, just little things.
So that's what I'd like. I think changing the stigma to housing estates other people that live and and dump their stuff
They have to know like we live here. I take pride here. I please do not dump your rubbish here anymore
Thank you for that
I mean I welcome
You know this this paper and the good in it to actually create one standards and not have a two -tier system
And yeah, I get help get rid of that any stigma that there is
But I did have a question next from Kate and from council stock
Mine was just around one of the estates in my ward, the Kambala.
There's definitely concerns about people coming from outside of the state to dumping.
So I think you've given us some reassurance that you're mindful of that in terms of the
discrete bulky waste collection points, because I think that's definitely a risk.
I was just going to add that as part of the Cleaner Borough, we increased the number of
contract monitoring offices.
And so although they previously did cover estates, we only had three.
So now we've increased to five.
So what I would recommend is get to know those monitoring
officers that work in your ward.
We can send out who that is, if that's useful.
Because then you can ideally don't email them directly,
because they're out monitoring.
But they can come and they can meet
and they can address any issues.
But they're also monitoring in a state.
So they're not, like you said, we haven't got two tiers.
We're working across those boundaries.
So those officers are around and available.
Thank you, I think that would be welcome.
Anything we can do to help really.
Okay, so I think I see no more questions.
So the next item is item six, it is the housing OSC work programme which is coming to the committee

5 Housing OSC Work Programme (Paper No.25-411)

each time.
So we've got an update that's been circulated today on the task and finish group that only
happened this week.
So really that's for people to note unless Councillor Stockwell wants to raise anything
about it.
I think the note stands, that's going to be published on the Council website as well.
We're hoping to bring a report to the next OSC meeting in January and we've got at least
possibly two more meetings between then and now.
Thank you for everybody's engagement in it so far.
That's great.
And then obviously I've spoke, oh sorry.
Who's?
I did not mind you.
Slightly different.
I was just about to, yeah, go on to that actually.
So if I can just say, yeah, so I just wanted to note
that the conversation that I had with Councillor Cornish
So yes, there's this request for the,
to add the HRA paper for consideration
of the January agenda.
And so at the January meeting.
So yes, so we'll put that on the agenda.
So I'm stating that here too.
Yeah, have that in the minutes.
Yeah, thank you.
I welcome that.
I think there's, and just to bring the whole committee
up to speed with the informal conversations
have taken place. There is a desire certainly on this side of the table, probably across
the committee as well, to have more visibility of the substantive cabinet decisions that
are taken on housing. So the HRA paper that went to cabinet in October, we do need to
see that in committee. Certainly I feel, we feel that this committee should have sight
of those papers as soon as possible.
Ideally before the cabinet takes the decision,
but certainly at minimum, but at the meeting afterwards.
I do want, we do have a statutory right to place items
on the OSC committee meeting agendas.
We don't want to have to go down that route,
but we will if we feel we need to.
This is not about lengthening agendas unnecessarily
and having prolonged discussions over every paper.
but it's simply about making sure that committee members
have sight of the papers, are able to read them
without having to track the production of those papers
independently and navigate to different parts
of the council website, and are then able to take
an informed decision about whether we would like
to have further discussion at the committee
on those papers.
So I think I'd like that noted.
And I know there was a member's inquiry about this
before this meeting, which unfortunately wasn't action,
but going forward it would be good for that to happen.
Yeah, so the request that went through members inquiry
route and it's also by the leader of the minority party,
but the actual process is slightly different.
So yeah, just for you to note that as well.
Councillor Stock.
Just really to comment on cabinet decisions coming up.
I know the practise of a number of other committees is to include the cabinet forward plan as
part of the work programme paper for committee.
I think that might be helpful to do this on this committee as well so that at this time
in the agenda we can also see everything that's on the forward plan for cabinet as well so
that if there are items that we would want to see, then we can request them at this point
in the agenda.
So I think that might be a helpful way of this group being better cited on cabinet decisions
in the future.
I think some movements enable some kind of dovetailing and to manage the process would
be really, really welcome.
Just to be clear, it is available on the Council's website.
I know there is the feeling amongst members that it should be more easily accessible.
I think that is a suggestion.
Councillor Stock makes a very valid point.
One could say that because it is on the Council's website, it is published.
I mean, it's a bit like saying because it's there, people have read it.
It's about actually making it easier.
And that's a good point.
I think we have had this discussion before saying, why can't cabinet papers that are going to cabinet just simply get email to us?
It's in a press of one button and we could all get it.
It's not a secret document because, you know, they get it and it's then on the website.
It just saves us a lot of hassle to hunt it down.
But my point actually was about, is there an update on the fire?
Because we had a fairly good feedback last time.
I know it's in the minutes, but what has happened since then?
And where are we at in terms of rehousing investigations, all of that?
Thank you, welcome to that.
Can I just ask us that we are noting the request made
under the temporary accommodation item for future,
wait, we need to note, where am I up to?
We need to note the TNF group update
and the items for the next meeting.
Can we just do that first
and then we'll move on to the file update.
Noted?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, so we're noting the update
And then yeah, we've got the items for the next meeting which we've just discussed with the HRA
Okay
The next remaining on the 15th of December, but task unfinished yeah, so that will be tied up
Let's
Let's go to the fire update.
Yeah, so I, Dave's gone, but the office have gone out to everyone.
I think there's just one family left who has not accepted an offer, but I can go away and
cheque that because when I say it's a live situation, I was on the phone yesterday with
one of the temporary accommodation residents as they were walking around the property and
they have decided to take the property.
I'm trying to go into as little details to it because,
but so we're in a good place with offers.
We have, having an independent inquiry now led by Barry Quirk,
who's done some interviews with staff and with us just
so we have an independent scrutiny on our own practises
and is looking into, you know, cause of fire,
response on the night, those kinds of things.
I think, in comparative, and his expertise
is that he was on the ground during Grenfell
in the aftermath.
So Barry's a good, long serving elected government officer.
He's a bit healthy.
He's being gratis, isn't he?
So I don't know, because I don't know enough about the history
there.
But I mean, he's an independent.
He's not hot.
He's an independent observer who's
been through something on a larger scale
that I think has lots of relevant knowledge.
We are currently, and Kay can talk on this,
going through the process on the works of the blocks,
the safety measures to those blocks,
and also costing up and evaluating where there might
be similar types of roofs.
So that's part of this process.
but we are in the process of costing up on the specific building surrounding Fox House
that have the identical roofs, what fire breaks and things like that can be implemented.
Yeah, I think it's very good of you to share what you know and so on.
I think it's probably useful to have a formal note about it.
and I think for, in a sense for public consumption too,
important that we haven't forgotten the immediacy.
It's over now, you know, and I think that's one of the problems with our current structure of things.
It doesn't allow you to be nimble in terms of what cited, how we should be cited,
and how the public should be reassured that we are being cited.
So I hope the report would cover both the immediate reaction,
the way the tenants have been supported,
rehoused, the issue of the condition,
the kind of structural condition,
whether there are other blocks of the similar risk,
and not only just in the neighbourhood,
but elsewhere in the borough.
And also, I think, whether there are ways
in which our emergency reaction team mechanisms were found to be fit and up to it, whether
they need to be updated.
I mean, so there's a kind of a moment of both reflection, review, and learning, and I think
we should have that as something for our input.
Definitely.
That is 100 percent the plan.
And like I say, I was kind of getting live filmed updates
of a property yesterday with it,
so it's no way out of mind.
But I think that we'd want to,
Barrie Quirk is gonna produce something substantive
that I think should come to this committee
and should be made public.
So that's the purpose of it.
But you're right to cheque in.
Because it wasn't on the agenda,
I didn't prepare anything,
but I'm just telling you what we're up to.
And I think you're right that we can,
I'll have, I'll kind of note that it's a standing item
that you'd like to have some words on
at the end of every meeting.
Yeah.
Then that's happened in our, on our estate for some time.
The only thing I'd add is we are still in the thick of it.
Obviously not the fire itself,
but in terms of all the work, associated work,
the look of other associated archetypes.
So obviously we can do a report to you all in January,
but I think it's not conclusive,
might need to be liked,
so it might be more than anything verbal.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, great.
We can have verbal updates until there's time for written reports and then...
Yeah, absolutely. Councillor Stock, did you have a question?
Well, no, it was just to ask about the timeline for the independent reports that we're commissioning.
Because I do just wonder if January for a substantive update,
I hear the request for a general progress update, but I wasn't sure if January is too
soon for something substantive.
I don't know if we have a timeline on completion of that independent – maybe we – I think
in the first instance, could we just have a written update by email like we were previously
having from Claire O 'Connor?
Is it possible to have a similar update and then kind of take things from there?
But I think the O 'Connor email is in a sense about the immediacy and the urgency and the
emergency side of it.
I think, and the Quirk report won't be quick anyway, so I also think it's in between the
situation we are at and I think the kind of standard progress report might be good enough.
Having it publicly on the agenda, there is a kind of theatre to it of course,
that the people who can see it happening can feel reassured that the council is playing their role.
And having the knowledge by email is great, but it doesn't have that kind of public visibility side of it.
Thank you very much.
Well, we've concluded the agenda, so the meeting is closed.
Thank you for coming.