Children's Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Tuesday 18 November 2025, 8:00pm - Wandsworth Council Webcasting

Children's Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Tuesday, 18th November 2025 at 8:00pm 

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  1. Webcast Finished

Good evening, everybody, and welcome to the Children's Overview and Scrutiny Committee.
I'm Councillor Sheila Boswell, and I am chair of this committee.
As we've just had a meeting previous to this, I don't intend to do introductions.
I will ask counsellors simply to give their name and the word they represent when they speak.
So I welcome on this committee we have co -opted members, so welcome to Ms. Nabila Haroon.
Mr. Anthony Langdon has sent apologies.
Welcome Mrs. Ari Wilsonholm from the Southwark Diocese Board of Education, Church of England.
And Ms. Sam Gower joining us online.
Sam Gower joining us online and also like to welcome Councillor Judy Gasser who is the cabinet member for children.
And officers also will introduce themselves as literally as they speak.
So just quickly, thanks everyone for taking part in that debate that we've just had jointly with health.
I think it was really thoughtful and it was great the way that everybody respected each other.
A really good example of cross -party working has, as has already been said.
So now we turn our attention to another critical area of our work,

1 Minutes, 16th September 2025

which is supporting children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities.
disabilities
This is another task and finish report back
And it will be introduced by Councillor Osborn in a moment. I am going now to
the agenda
One minutes are the minutes agreed
Thank You

2 Declarations of Interest

Declarations of interests are there any declarations of interest?
No, thank you very much

3 Drivers of EHCPs and the experiences of young people and professionals throughout the process (Paper No. 25-394)

So, I will now go to Councillor Osborne, who is the chair of the EHCP Task and Finish Group
to introduce.
Okay.
Just a very brief introduction, partly because the meat of the discussion for this Task and
Finish Group actually was in the last overview and scrutiny committee, and there will be
subsequent overview and scrutiny committee which will get get into it in
a deeper dive this is a sort of in -between interim report on progress
so far and actually more importantly what we're going to do next. The bulk of
the report is a response to some of the questions that were raised at the last
overview and scrutiny committee.
So there are some statistics and some responses there.
There was a lot of concern, I think,
expressed by both parties and the independent observers
at the last meeting, and a desire for more data.
And that's what's come out in this report.
So that point has been answered for this evening.
And I have to say that the data that's available,
I would say it's helpful to our discussion,
and it increases our understanding of the problems
that we face and the need for the task and finish group,
and is important.
And I hope that those that were asking questions
about this data last time feel they've got some answers.
I mean, I'm not trying to close off discussion this evening, but I hope that most of the
points have been answered.
And it generates, I think, a number of the new lines of inquiry that we want as a task
and finish group to pursue.
But that's something for discussion tonight and subsequently.
The other thing about the interim nature of the report this evening is that it presages
the engagement that we want to promote further down the line in our run up to the next overview
and scrutiny committee.
In the path that we're taking towards serious recommendations, more on that in a minute,
But on the engagement, I've just mentioned that we already have two meetings in the diary
for the task and finish group.
One on the tribunals and a need for discussion there.
That's on the 3rd of December.
But also we have a meeting with the parent carer forum coming up that is also now in
the diary for the 25th of this month, if I remember correctly. So we are
making progress on getting stuff in the diary and getting the meetings so that
we can focus on those those subjects. I'll draw my remarks to a close actually
because I don't want to drag it on. The one thing I want to mention in
In addition to all of that, is I stressed at the last meeting how much we are trying
to make sure that the discussions that we have here as a borough are as engaged as possible
with a national discussion.
And there is a constant national discussion going on.
By the way, I recommend if people get a chance to look at the report from the county council's
network on this subject, which has done a lot of analysis on the problem area and has
come up with a lot of ideas.
Their basic recommendation is all connected with the finance, and that's important, no
doubt about it.
I mean, we're trying to balance that with our concerns about the care for the children
and for the parents and carers.
But I recommend it.
I know if I can get people to look at that, that would be good.
And I suppose I should say that when we come to some recommendations in the new year, that
as much as possible will be dovetailed with, insofar as it is possible, dovetailed with
the white paper which the government is about to come out with.
So that's the stage we're at at the moment with this task and finish group, and I'm happy
for people to discuss any elements of that that are of interest.
Thank you very much, Councillor Osborne.
So yes, I'll ask the questions.
Are there any questions for Councillor Osborne or the officers?
Councillor Davies I saw first and then Councillor Rowans and then Councillor Jaffray.
Yes, thank you so much for all the work that's evidently gone into this report just so far.
I mean, I'm very interested in the ones with context,
and I think that's what you are very much looking at here,
about sort of what the peculiarities,
and I presume it's like we want to make as many changes
as possible to reduce, you know,
increase provision and reduce costs to make this sustainable.
But, yeah, so clearly, one thing that stands out
is about the number of placements in the independent sector,
which is increasing in cost, but I just wondered,
Do you have anything that could sort of like tease out why that is?
Why is Wandsworth different there than other boroughs?
Forgive me, I'm inclined to hand that question over to the officers, if I may, who tend to
have the facts and figures at their fingertips on these things.
The fundamental reason for the cost increases in schools links back to things like teachers' pay increases, national insurance contributions, the rate of inflation, all of which seem to come out at a higher level in the independent sector than they do in the maintained.
But all of that has had a major impact on the cost.
And plus the children that are going into the independent sector tend to be our most complex.
So they're the children that are the most difficult, they need the most support, they need a different type of support.
Also, independent schools are impacted by lack of therapy, exactly as we are.
But they pay more in order to make sure they're fully staffed.
So a lot of it is factors that we're already aware of, but they do tend to pay at a higher rate.
Thank you very much, Ms. Johnson.
Can I just remind everybody, because we didn't do introductions, if you can just introduce yourselves as you speak.
So apologies, Deborah Johnson, Assistant Director for Sends and Inclusion.
Thank you very much.
I had Councillor Owens next and then Councillor Jaffray.
Thank you, Councillor Owen's Northcote Ward.
Just picking up on that point, I've got a couple of points, but it's helpful that Councillor
Davies raised that, and the proportion of pupils in the independent sector.
I get your point on complex needs and increasing costs, and that's obviously the case for all
schools, but particularly more perhaps in the independent sector for the reasons you
outlined with extra support.
I was just wondering, is it more the demographic of the children that are in the independent sector?
Is that different to, so for example, one of the things I noticed was that in primary,
obviously there are far more children that are primary age that are in the maintained sector.
And obviously that is what we want to be the case, particularly now that we spent so much money with the new paddock, etc.
But I was just wondering, is it the demographic of the children that are in the independent sector?
Is that part of it?
So those are perhaps parents that particularly want and have had the right in the last 10 years to ask for their children to be educated in that sector.
And if that is the case and something we need to change now that we have paddock secondary,
can we project into the future as to how this will come down because it is quite a cost.
Thank you.
The primary factor for parents asking for independent sector is because it's legislation, it's in the same code practise.
So that was changed in 2014 where parents had the right to ask for an independent school.
And so therefore the only reason we can deny an independent school is if it doesn't meet the needs of the child or young person.
Or there's a major cost difference.
If you then go to appeal on a cost difference, it has to be over 10 ,000 pounds a year for you to be able to make that cost difference.
But obviously, that's not just on the cost of the school.
That's on school transport and also the independent things that we have to purchase on top that may be therapies, etc.
Because the school may not provide them and if they move outside of the borough,
it means that we don't commission them from St. George's Hospital or our contracts there.
But fundamentally, it's in law.
Parents can ask for an independent school if they don't want a mainstream school.
So yes, there is a factor where I think there is a large push from parents who are more affluent,
that would prefer their child to go to an independent sector.
But at this moment in time, it's the law that any parent can ask for an independent school.
Thank you very much. I've got Councillor Jeffrey next.
Thank you, Chair. Councillor Jeffrey, Wandsworth Towne Award.
So in terms of, I'm just looking at data, and data shows a correlation between
deprivation and a number of EHCPs.
So what my question is, is what extra support
will we offer to people living in the most deprived areas?
And have we investigated why do the people in the most
deprived areas feel that they need these EHCPs?
I think fundamentally, children in deprived areas
need EHCPs because obviously due to social and economic
factors, they may not have language skills, they may not have the same best start in life.
And so fundamentally we do see more EHCPs and that's where we would expect to see them.
And that's why we look at our areas of deprivation in our planning as to where we open new provision
and where we look at expanding our provision to ensure that we have adequate provision
to meet the needs of those children.
But fundamentally, children from a deprived background do tend to have
higher levels of speech and language issues, autism, late diagnoses.
Just also, sorry, could I just add as well?
I think there's also something about those families then not seeking the support that they maybe need.
And therefore, I think our change to our approach to go and find those families so
so that we can then intervene at an earlier stage,
so that we can put in the support
without the need for an EHCP.
We've started doing that work now.
I mean, that's in its infancy.
A lot of the work we do on our sort of recovery plan
is around early intervention, right support
at the right time in the right place.
And so as much as we recognise this is a problem
and we're trying to work to resolve it,
I think it's gonna take some time
for that to work its way through the system.
We're seeing it now from some of the interventions
we've put in place like NIPA.
That is bearing fruit, it is benefiting our provisions,
our children, our families.
And we hope, looking at projections,
that over time we will see those numbers of requests
for EHCPs coming down, but it has to be dovetailed
with an approach from government
that doesn't then allow people to use the system to access support that actually maybe they don't really need.
And that is the case at the moment.
I think we do have, we're more robust in our decision making and in our work now than we previously were.
And therefore, I think hence why our refusals to assess have gone up, because we are more robust in that approach.
But it's making sure that, as I said,
it's not about denying support for children,
absolutely not, but it's making sure
that the right children have the right type of support
in the right place.
Mr. Halleck, did you want to come in with information?
Then I've got Councillor Osborne as chair
who wants to come in, I know, and then I have questions.
Just one thing, I just think it's a really good point
for us to explore as part of this group
that early intervention, there are some initiatives
that have been worked through with schools forum as well, where we give funding, well,
the idea of giving funding with a robust framework for decision making, because you can't let
it just become a free -for -all, which I have seen elsewhere, where it's been tried, where
it doesn't create that need for any HCP that goes on for 15 years, that it ends, and that
impact is actually made, because that's the point of all this money, is to make impact.
If it's not, then there's no point.
So we should be seeing that impact.
Some will not have the same impact and be able to stay in mainstream.
Some will need a special school.
There are always going to be those types of children.
Even the new white papers, unlikely to be able to change that.
So I think it's a really good piece for us to explore later on through the next stages
actually.
Councillor Osborne.
Just to say that County Council's network report that I referred to earlier on has done
a lot of work on the interrelation between the EHCPs and areas of deprivation.
Similar figures to the Wandsworth figures.
Not identical, but similar figures.
So the phenomenon is being repeated nationally everywhere you look as demonstrated in that
report.
Like I say, I recommend it.
Councillor Caddy and then Councillor Burchill.
Thank you, Chair.
Yeah, that was gonna be exactly,
my question was about parents who are perhaps
more vulnerable and basically concerned
that basically the loudest voice gets the attention.
It's the kind of squeaky wheel that gets the oil.
I was gonna ask whether there was any correlation
between the IDACI score and levels of appeal,
because one of the things that sort of concerned me slightly
was maybe that actually some of those parents
that are being refused consideration
don't know how to appeal, don't understand the system,
And actually the parents that do know, we all know that they can gain the system.
And that's absolutely correct.
It's been recognised that the appeals are used by parents that are more affluent that are able to pay for lawyers.
We now see refusals to assess with a KC defending the parent, which is interesting.
But yes, it's definitely a system that you see more usage by
parents with advantage, however, we do do a lot of work with our,
One's Worth Independent advice and support service, our parent carer forum as well.
So that our teams are trained to redirect parents where we know that they won't have a lawyer.
Where we actually advise them to go to those.
So we see a lot of parents supported through the system through that.
And I have to say my SNAS team as well, the assessment service, are very happy to sit down and talk to parents.
They meet with every parent that's got an EHCP.
They're very clear how to appeal and they do help them if they think that they don't understand that process.
That's very reassuring, thank you.
Thank you. I've got Councillor Burchill and then Ms Haroon.
Thank you, chair. I am Councillor Rosalie Burch from the Commonwealth
common ward. This is a very good piece of work and I am excited to be on the task and
finish group. Because it is a complicated issue. I have got several points. One of them
of course, is that the speech and language seems to be one of the diagnoses for a lot
of these ones.
Now, and they're being picked up at nursery school, which is right.
Are we seeing a result in giving them the extra help in, you know, the three-, four-,
or five year olds that might enable them to move out
of an EHCP and into just extra help.
I've got other questions but I'll.
I'll take that one.
So while our commissioning team have done a review
of the therapies investment we've made
in the last couple of years,
and I will admit we haven't invested as much
is in OT support, and that is the next stage.
And there's a paper going to the schools for it.
And I think it's something that needs to be here as well.
But we did quite a big investment
in speech and language.
And the hypothesis has that made an impact.
And what we found through the data,
actually, through this review, is
that EACP requests that are driven by SALT,
because the investment was at Essien support level
before in EACP.
so it's at that early intervention stage,
have flatlined.
While they're seeing support, cases have gone up with salt.
So it means that they are not being escalated into EHCPs.
Well, they are, but the rate is slow to such an amount
that it's kept the lines flat.
But on OT, where we haven't invested,
two lines still go like this.
And so you're seeing EHCPs go up with the demand for OT.
So there is quite a strong case for us to invest in OT.
So, yeah.
Ms. Johnson, I think you wanted to come in.
And also, could I make a special plea about using acronyms?
Because already I'm wondering what NIPA is,
and I can't find it.
You've very helpfully given us a list.
Nursery Inclusion Project for All,
and OT, occupational therapist,
and SALT, speech and language therapist.
Thank you very much, Mr. Hutton.
One of the pieces of work we're doing with the speech language therapy service is looking at the reasons why the increase is now
doubling for children that require intervention.
And a lot of that comes down to the fact that a lot of children are put in front of screens instead of being spoken to, talked to.
Storeys read to them, the things that parents do.
However, you know, we both recognise that there is a real impact through social impact
and deprivation in the fact that parents are holding down more than one job.
They don't have time to do the things that they would do before.
And that's one of the primary reasons for speech and language needs increasing.
Ms. Haroon.
I have a couple of questions, but I want to comment on what Debra and Lisa said about
independent school.
So I think I raised my concerns previously in this meeting.
When it comes to independent school, the law is very clear.
If the local authority has that provision, then the child must attend this.
However, if the local authority hasn't had that provision,
then it's kind of, it's in favour of the child, right?
No, it was very clear that the local authority,
there's no doubt they are doing a lot.
I can see as well, you know, having resource bases
increase the capacity.
However, still they are lacking.
And I think you mentioned about the paddock school,
and as a member in a school forum,
we actually explore in detail what type of provisions that the children are attending
in independent school and they are not mainly the children that have the cohort like paddock.
So I think you need to really explore what provisions you are lacking and you need further,
might be 16 places or 20 places are not enough.
And the question is about as we're talking about independent school, so it's the slide
46.
Is it 10 percent of ESCPR for independent school placement?
So to understand the financial impact, what percentage of the total high need budget is
allocated to funding these placements?
So we have done a lot on sufficiency, a huge amount really.
Falling rolls, which has affected schools in the higher deprivation areas, have seen
an opportunity to use that space.
We have invested in resource bases and many of those schools and they are more to come
We've got money from central government to do that as well. Paddock obviously is a state -of -the -art beautiful school
I don't think anyone would want to place their child anywhere else if they meet that need
But there are gaps and so the opportunity with paddock moving from the site in Priory Lane to be now turning that into an
the SCMH ASD space, which is a Christie College,
I don't know if I should name names right here,
but anyway, an alternative to some of the placement gaps
that you mentioned, but mainly in that SCMH role,
because we invested so much in autism.
I still think, and the data does show it,
that there's a gap for that SCMH at primary still.
Transitioning.
SCMH, social, emotional, mental health, sorry.
Sorry.
I just have it.
Apologies.
So social, emotional, mental health, and autism,
a combination of the two, with autism being the most prevalent
but with an element of SCMH.
That will be a 72 place secondary school expansion
of Nightingale.
That's already our biggest social, emotional, mental
health school in the borough.
And then the Nine Alms provision,
which will come online in 2027 will also have a base.
But there are, I do think there's opportunities.
We don't have a lot of capital money in the high knees block unless we go and bid for
council capital.
But we can actually convert most of these empty parts of schools for not too much money
actually, especially in the social emotional and mental health area.
So I think most schools, if they could have one, should have one.
Thank you, Mr. Hallock.
That's really good to hear.
I've got Councillor Owens and then Councillor Burchill coming back.
Thank you, Councillor Boswell.
And I forgot to say in my first comments on placements that I do think it's fantastic
that we do have far more data this time around than we did last time around.
And I was very interested to see some of the data on EHC and the requests made by selected
schools, the actual request for the EHCPs.
It would be good to see perhaps more of the primary schools
listed.
It's quite a small selection here, I thought.
The reason I say that is because, I mean, obviously,
there are academy schools that aren't Wandsworth schools.
But some of the academies are listed under secondary.
But it's just fascinating when we're
talking about deprivation leading to more EHCPs
and special educational needs because parents are working
and the children perhaps with screens.
I thought it was interesting going through some of the data
that you have some of the schools
that have the most deprived listed
that have, sorry, are not the most deprived,
unless I'm reading it upside down, which is possible,
that have more requests than others.
And it would be interesting to drill down into the data.
I mean, I could see my sons
are in two different of the secondaries.
And again, some of the, one of the lesser deprived schools
seems to have more requests.
That's one of my son's schools, the other ones in there too.
But under the primary was particularly noticeable because of course with primary,
obviously some of the children with most deprived children have a lot of requests.
But there are others that don't seem to have that many and they've got a lot of requests too.
So interesting to drill down, thank you.
Mr. Van Rowley.
Yeah, I mean I think there's something around the fact that if you're in an area with less deprived children,
you have less funding because you don't have the deprivation funding.
So you might still have the needs of children, but not necessarily have the per pupil funding and the deprivation factor that goes with it.
So hence why they might be requesting more.
Similarly, you've got schools that are in more deprived areas that will get that deprivation funding and
therefore can meet the needs of those children within that.
Now, we do have anomalies there.
And actually, what I would recommend and have recommended to the task and finish group is the looking at the data,
So the schools that you might then want to go and visit to have those conversations.
Because we have got schools very deprived, make very few requests, and have exceptional SCN practise.
And what would be good is to go and have those conversations to understand why, what does that look like, and what can we learn from those schools to then share with others.
Now obviously, they're not the same types of schools, so
it sometimes is difficult to translate, but there will be practises that you can have crossover with.
And similarly to understand the schools that are making high requests, why is that the case?
What could be done differently to prevent the need to make those requests for EHCPs?
So I think, as I said, the next phase of engagement I think will be absolutely critical in this piece of work.
Because it's where we're going to get our recommendations from that I think are really going to have the biggest impact for us in terms of our budgets.
and more importantly on outcomes for children.
Thank you, Ms. Van Rolle.
That's very exciting and it really gets to the heart of the matter.
A really good example of task and finish and diving deep
and really going into these problems.
I've got Councillor Burchill next and then Councillor Aniston.
Yes, thank you very much.
I think that Ms. Van Rolle and I are thinking about the same things.
It's how do we get to those children that need help,
but don't need the label of having an EHCP?
And I think it's all about transparency.
Well, no, it's about two things.
It's about the school being able to provide the extra help
without having to go for an EHCP.
But we need to be able to show the parents of the children who've got, send needs,
that their needs can be provided for within the mainstream or within a hub or whatever,
but do not need the EHCP.
And I'm sure that some of the people who are upset about not being deprived of the opportunity
to apply for an EHCP, there is help for their children and appropriate help, but they need
to understand that they are being given the best help.
I think that was a statement rather than a question.
Can I respond as chair of the task and finish group and saying absolutely.
I agree very much with your approach and your thoughts. I mean we've got to give a little bit
more shape I think to what we're doing but I welcome your approach and I think it's a matter
of the task and finish group, your contribution there and working together as a team to get the
kind of result which I think you're looking for in the way in which we engage with interested
parties. So I'm backing you 100%.
Councillor Annan, I think, and then Councillor O 'Brien.
Thank you, Chair. My name is Councillor Annan, Battersea Park Ward. I just want to comment
on the papers. The language is very soft and we can read and understand, so thank you,
My question is, I want to know how can, I want to know the relationship, I want to frame
the question in a way that it would be easier for, with children with disabilities that
the parents are from disadvantaged background, English is their second language.
So the child is not doing well, but the parents don't know how to say to the school that I need you to look into this for my child.
They can't communicate.
I work with some of the children, but I'm a homework lab, a charity.
Is there a way that I can help the parents with the school, or can I make a direct referral to children's services for it to be looking?
I don't know that I'm asking this question because I have never had anybody saying oh a charity or a volunteer centre
I've been able to do a direct referral
Yeah, so I want to know if this is possible
So luckily normally every I think once every month Thursdays
I get Carol Hill to come to the charity to speak to parents because of the stigma they don't want to come out
They don't even want the school to say it
But when it comes to Carol at the charity down there in your garden libraries
They are able to speak which is one way like we supporting them
But when they get to the school, they don't want to speak because that language is heavy
for them.
And you don't want them as well, the schools as well, they say, oh, there's no money for
assessment.
The child is not really not physically ill, but just learning disabilities.
And she was talking about how can we give the students support and not being labelled.
Will the child be able to get one to one for a TA to explain the work for the child?
All that comes with a cost.
How can we do that?
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor.
Councillor Onan for that really sort of first -hand experience question.
I don't know who would...
Yes, thank you, Ms. Ferg.
I think there's something about trusted individuals, people that they feel that they can speak
with and whether that's their faith groups, community groups, whether that's the parent
carer forum.
There's lots of places we can signpost families to,
and they've got to feel comfortable
about being in that space.
I recognise sometimes schools aren't the most easy places
to engage in necessarily those conversations,
and it's about building confidence in the first place.
It's interesting, because I think,
and this comes back to the last point,
for me it's about how do we create a culture of confidence
parents with our schools because I think that parental requests for
EHCP sometimes come from a place of feeling I have to have that
because my child's not going to get the support that they need.
And we've got to move away from that.
We've got to, we have very inclusive schools and we have schools that want to provide that support.
But in some cases it might be around funding, it might not be knowing quite, not having the access to the support that they need.
confidence in some of the teachers to deal with some of the complex needs they're seeing.
And we're looking at how we might actually support, we've got very, very high quality Senkos.
But actually, it's not about Senko anymore.
Everybody is a teacher of SEND.
Every single classroom teacher has to be able to meet the needs of quite a diverse range of children within their classroom settings.
And we've got to work with our schools to enable them to have the skills and the tools to be able to support children.
And I think once we have that and teachers have that confidence, then it will create more confidence in parents.
And then we'll have that better engagement piece.
And I think a lot of what we're seeing is we've got to put that support in at send support
to stop then the progression into request for EHCPs.
So again, it's that early identification, but I think it's really about connecting families,
parents, individuals with that right person to provide them with information, support.
And I think for me, there's lots of opportunities to do that through our family hubs now, parent
carer forum, even our inclusion team.
Our inclusion teams will go into schools, they have conversations.
We have coffee mornings, we have this.
So there's a lot more out there now
to engage with families in these discussions.
And sometimes I think it's better
if they happen outside of the school environment.
Yeah, because a lot of them don't know about the family
hubs and what is happening there.
And sometimes when you tell them to go,
they feel they're going to take their details, and some
of them whose documents are not really right,
like with indefinite and all that.
With all that is going on, they feel
something is going to happen.
A lot of parents have a lot of fears, I'm telling you.
Yeah.
And that's the thing.
I mean, I've seen the data on our family hubs,
And actually the engagement with our hubs is, the improvements are magnificent.
But there's still more room for improvement.
But I think it's, you need somebody to go to the hub with.
So we've got our family connectors.
We've got people that can go out into our communities and actually have those
conversations and bring them to the hubs.
Because that's what we've got to start doing.
Because people will not step foot through places that are unknown.
They don't know, they don't feel comfortable, don't feel confident.
So we've got to create that confidence in people to be able to step through the doors and access the sport because there is a vast
amount of support available
Thank you, um
That was a very comprehensive answer for you there cancer and on and useful to all of us
I was Johnson you wanted to come in do I know trying? Yes
And just to add just to add quickly if you contact our sense of this
We also come out to coffee mornings exactly as as Lisa said and we will bring an interpreter
So if it's a language barrier because we generally find it's not just one parent it tends to be a group
Thank you, I've got counsellor Owen and then unless and miss Haroon unless there are any further questions after that
I quite like to bring this to a close and go on to the next paper because we started the meeting so much so much later
so can't
Thank you.
Just picking up a bit on what Councillor Burchill was saying earlier in terms of the children
and you answered the schools and it comes back to some of the data here that are doing
a lot so they're not necessarily having the EHCP's requests that we see and others that
aren't and so we've got more potentially that could be an answer.
But I think information about those schools will be very useful to parents.
We have a situation now in Wandsworth and I haven't seen a spreadsheet this year but
Last year we saw a spreadsheet that showed that the only school that was filled in reception was Belleville Primary School.
That was in September 2023.
So if there are interventions at earlier stages, whether that's at our state nurseries or
through health or through hubs, I certainly know with one of my sons who was monitored by Lodge for hearing impairment for ten years.
I was offered all sorts of things at an early stage, which is great.
But now that we know that these schools also can't fill their places,
maybe the schools that have more SEND opportunities or options for
children could be shown to parents who can travel and get to them.
Because it strikes me that we have children in my ward, Northcote,
that are coming from other boroughs and coming in from reception
because other schools haven't filled.
But those schools have clearly not filled their places.
and there may be help there for some of those children.
Thank you.
Thank you. I think that was, yeah, again, a comment rather than a question.
Ms Haroon, and then I'm going to bring it to a close.
So my question is about inclusion.
We do understand that there is a lot of inclusion in a primary school,
but my concern is about the secondary school and a part of TASK and the Finnish group.
when we had the activities with the officers,
SNES department, YS, and these officers were very clear
that there's a lot of complaints and requests
for the ESCP coming from the families or the schools
that they are struggling with schools
and that comes with the behaviour policy.
And I know it's the second phase where, you know,
the LA is involved in the school.
So I'm really keen to know how this issue is going to be tackled because behavioural
policies are the main reasons as well.
I don't know who wants to take that.
That did come up when we had the EHCP on the agenda at the last OSCE.
Did you want to comment, Councillor?
Just to say, I don't want to forestall any of the discussion in the task and finish group
on that particular subject.
You're quite right.
it was raised in that meeting in a forceful way, a moving way actually.
I was quite moved by the officers who came with those concerns to the group.
And all of that meeting was captured by the officer who was there recording what was happening.
And it will therefore be taken into account and discussed as we move forward with the task and finish group.
At this stage, I think it might be premature to say anything too definite about it.
I think I want a bit more discussion.
Thank you very much, Councillor Osborne.
Now, I'm going to bring it to a close now because we started very late and Nancy Caruso,
who's going to introduce the next report,
has to leave and also needs to get to the other committee
because we've got two running tonight at the same time.
So that report was for information,
so we agree it's for information that's noted.
Thank you very much.
So Ms. Cruz, I'm terribly sorry
if I'm not pronouncing your name correctly.
If you'd like to introduce the annual complaints report,

4 Annual Complaints Report (Paper No. 25-395)

paper number 25395.
Thank you. It's Nancy Carissa, Corporate and Statutory Complaints Manager.
Very briefly, is that, can you hear me now? Okay.
So very briefly, there was a 24 % increase across statutory complaints with 46
resolved across all three stages. Most were at stage one and that reflects
effective early intervention and resolution of complaints.
Timeliness remains a focus. 63 % of statutory complaints were responded to within the statutory
time scale.
12 % of stage one complaints this year
came directly from young people, mainly care leavers.
The report is positive.
The report emphasises learning from complaints
throughout the report.
There's case studies, and that's to demonstrate the commitment
that children's services have from listening to people,
learning from complaints, and making sure
that services are improved.
And towards the end of the report,
there's some really lovely compliments as well,
Which I just like to draw people's attention to to show that we get you know
Children's Services get some really good feedback as well about all the things that are being done really well
And I'd be happy to answer any questions
Thank you very much. I'm so do we have any questions for
Councillor caddy miss her room Councillor Worrell. Oh
Thank you chair and yet
I mean just to reiterate obviously the compliments were very impressive and as ever with reports like this
Obviously we're sort of focusing on the negative slightly,
but I just wondered what on page 33,
I think it's paragraph 3 .9,
it looks like there are quite a few more complaints
made to the ombudsman this year,
and I just wondered what was driving that
and whether there was a way of sort of heading those off
or trying to sort of resolve them
before they get raised to the ombudsman.
Thank you.
Complaints to the ombudsman have increased,
but that's across the board,
And I would say that really there's more public awareness now, which is a good thing.
The Ombudsman have launched a complaints handling code.
They're very much in the public domain.
We throughout all stages of our process tell people, we take a rights -based approach.
We tell people at all stages that if they're not happy with the response, they've got
a right to go to the Ombudsman.
So people are really aware of that right.
And I think that's why there's been an increase.
However, there hasn't been an increase in formal investigations.
And so when the ombudsman gets a complaint,
they do quite a detailed assessment,
and they make a decision of whether they're
going to take it forward for a full investigation.
And the numbers for children's services
that have reached full investigation haven't risen.
And what that indicates is that actually, we are still
getting it right to our process.
And the ombudsman, for the majority,
when they reach the ombudsman, they're
satisfied that we've either resolved it,
or we've not done anything particularly of worry.
Thank you. I've got Ms. Saroon and then Councillor Worrall, Councillor Osborne.
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, we do acknowledge that for the Stage 1 complaints, we would like to do better with the timeliness.
Before I answer what we're doing,
I just want to say that some of the reasons for that
are that a lot of the complaints for children's social care,
particularly some of the ones that fall into kind of child
protection or children that are looked after, a lot of them
have to do with perceptions, how people
perceive they've been supported, how their families have
been treated.
So the time scale is fairly restrictive.
And sometimes it needs a bit of talking to the families,
meeting with the families and actually having conversations to understand a bit more why
they feel the way they do. And that does cause delays.
In terms of trying to improve timeliness, I mean, the complaints team, we've put tighter
processes in place with us to support children's social care more. So we're doing more to make
sure that we send reminders at an earlier stage to teams. We're making sure that we'll
pick up, you know, call on teams and just kind of intervene and say to
investigation managers, do you need a little bit of help with that, would you like us to look at the letter
at an earlier stage and help you?
And I'm positive that next year there'll be an improvement because I look back at
the first two quarters of the year and
we're definitely
making the improvements we want to make.
That's good to hear. Councillor Worrall.
Thank you, Chair. The majority of my question was already asked by Councillor Caddy, so thank you very much for that.
It's just the last bit of your answer when you said that this showed that we were getting it right.
My understanding would be that parents are actually happy with the service, or we are actually explaining it well, how to actually make a complaint, or what did it actually mean by that?
In relation to the complaints going to the ombudsman, I think it means that we're
resolving them more to people's satisfaction. I think that answers the question.
So from what you're saying is that we actually are getting the process right in terms of
picking up the complaints at an early stage, dealing with them better and to greater satisfaction
at the early stage rather than having to get through to the whole system and be resolved
at the later stage.
Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant, that we're running our complaint process effectively,
we're not getting complaints about how we run the complaints process.
Great, that's really good to hear.
Thank you.
Councillor Osborne and then Councillor Davies.
Yes, it's a comment really, which is that I think as Councillor Caddy says, one of the
important things with this is what we learn from from the complaints we get in.
The total number is actually very small statistically they're not really giving
us a big enough spread to draw too many conclusions but there are things here to
learn I think. Otherwise I did have a question but actually Miss Haroun has
asked it in detail so and got a good answer so I'm not going to ask it.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor Davies.
I really appreciate the case studies in this report and yeah, very specific, you know,
about the findings and the learning from the complaints.
And I'm particularly looking at the one about the supporting care leavers into independence
and someone on the Future First team.
And so my question is I'm interested in how the learning
from this situation, or all situations,
how they're shared with across all teams.
Because here it's, I mean, it's very good to see
that there's a new protocol in place
between housing and children's services.
But actually there are a lot of other people involved
as well, like apprenticeships and financing and so on.
So that would be one example, but yeah.
Thank you.
I just can't just say, and obviously I might be interested for this one, is as a corporate
parent.
Thank you.
So I can answer specifically in relation to care leavers.
So with this complaint, I think it's important to acknowledge that for the complaints we
We have for our young people, we encourage our young people to make complaints if they're not happy with something.
We think that that's really important, that they are empowered to do that, and we use an advocacy service to support that.
In relation to housing, a lot of the complaints that we've had from our care leavers relate to practise some years ago.
So this is their reflection of how their journeys weren't as they wanted them to be.
So I guess I'm pleased to say that we've made a number of changes.
in responses to these complaints, but also we had made some changes before these complaints even came in.
So some of the key bits are a housing guide for
our young people, co -produced with young people to give them that sense of what their housing journey might look like.
We know that some of our young people previously hadn't fully understood what that would look like.
And we have young people who understand
that they were told, for example, that they would
have their own flat at 18.
And we just know that that's not quite right.
So having that kind of co -produced guide
with young people about what your journey looks
like from foster care into supported accommodation,
into independent accommodation, and the various options
available to you.
In terms of the kind of wider partnership,
certainly we've now got a housing team embedded
in our leave -in care service, they're called Future House.
So one of those offices is a supported accommodation pathways officer, and she does exactly that.
So thinking about young people who are engaged in apprenticeships, who are employed, and
helping them to understand what that means for their income, their ability to claim benefits,
and their ability to then pay their rent.
So part of our supported accommodation is around making sure young people are ready
to manage a tenancy when they move.
So they are responsible for paying that rent element.
And just really unpicking, because it's complex.
It's complex for them, but it's complex for us to understand too.
So really unpicking how we can support young people to make sure that engaging in employment,
engaging in apprenticeships doesn't disadvantage them in terms of the benefits they can claim
and what they then need to pay.
So we've done a lot of work around that, as well as all of the other bits that you've seen in there.
And I think our joint protocol with housing
is really important, because the particular young woman
that you referenced from the case study
was living in temporary accommodation.
So again, that partnership with housing
and how we are committed to working together
as corporate parents and making sure
that we look at our care experience, young people,
as a different group of young people,
a different group of young adults,
and a different group of adults.
Thank you very much, Ms. Souta. Ms. Wilson -Holm?
I was just noticing that quite often these complaints will be about a specific relationship with a specific few people, often the social worker.
And obviously that's a really hard position being a social worker.
I was just wondering what was being done to support the social workers and possibly reflection,
possibly just helping them deal with something that was quite a difficult position.
So as a social worker, I think I can say this, I think as a social worker you are very used
to navigating relationships that perhaps are not
straightforward.
And we often enter families' lives
at a point in time where they are particularly vulnerable,
and also sometimes at a point in time
when they don't want us there.
But we have to be there.
So I think the profession teaches you a lot.
But certainly, because the profession teaches you a lot,
and because the day -to -day is emotionally heavy,
we have a lot of support mechanisms
for our social workers.
So they receive obviously professional supervision
in terms of their work with families,
but they also receive personal supervision.
We have a social care academy that has a kind of wrap around
and obviously the council has their own well -being offer
as well, which we will continuously signpost people to.
But our social care academy has very much a kind of
pastoral offer as well as throughout the structure,
the kind of line management structure, that approach.
I also think we work together quite a lot.
So we don't use hybrid working as much.
We co -locate in offices.
And I guess part of that is being able to pick up
when someone may be struggling,
when someone's had a really difficult conversation,
when someone's had to take on someone else's emotion
about a situation, and just having that kind of
in the moment peer -to -peer support.
Thank you.
I've got Ms. Haroon, then I have Councillor Worrall,
and then I'm mindful that Ms. Caruso
that possibly needs to go to the other committee.
We need to release you.
So the top complaint issue are the same as last year.
So what is being done differently this year
to actually reduce complaints about lack of support
and quality of assessment?
I think I probably need to refer back
to some of the learning to give a very specific answer,
but lack of support is always going
to be one of the top complaint issues raised
in these complaints.
Because as I said earlier, it's very much about perceptions,
about how people feel they've been treated.
And there's learning throughout the report.
I don't think we specifically looked at that.
Do you want to, Elizabeth wants to come.
So I agree.
I think lack of support, so anecdotally,
those complaints relate to, I guess, a mismatch.
So what a family might have been hoping to receive
versus what we think they want or need.
And so I guess that's where the engagement with families
through that complaints process is really important.
So, and the meeting process,
and that links to the kind of time scales.
So if a parent approaches and makes a complaint
that says I didn't get the support I wanted.
Sometimes that's the first time we might have heard that.
And so it's really important for us to understand what was it that you wanted and what didn't we give you.
Equally, I suppose, there's also sometimes we perhaps have to take a different approach with a family in order to safeguard a child.
And so the area of support that they may have wanted, for example, housing,
Can't be our priority or something that's easily achievable and
we perhaps have to do something different in order to support a child's safety and well being.
So that comes up as well.
And then in terms of quality of assessment, I think at times that overlaps with another theme.
So at times we perhaps have engaged with one parent more than another.
And that sometimes links to which parent the children live with.
And there are also, and so one parent has one view on the assessment and
thinks that it is accurately reflective of their life because they have been fully engaged in that process.
And another parent perhaps feels that it's not fully reflective of the circumstance because their voice is less present in that assessment.
And we absolutely take that feedback on board and we know that we need to do more work with parents who don't live with their children,
and in particular with fathers, to hear those voices.
And yes, and then we have had to do a piece of work with our workforce around the time scale.
So this committee will have heard about kind of the timeliness of child and family assessments.
We also have to allow in that period time for a family to see an assessment, read it, digest it, understand it.
Give us feedback for us to then change the assessment and alter it based on that feedback within that 45 days.
And so we've really changed our practise approach to how we complete assessments in a timely way to make sure that we allow 10 working days.
So we worked with, we worked with 35 days to give families 10 days to read that assessment, come back to us with their feedback, and for us to incorporate that.
And we weren't doing that as well as before.
Thank you very much.
I've got Councillor Worrell.
Yes, just as a point of clarification, having sat on the other side investigating complaints
in a previous job, I just want to clarify, what we're talking here about is a number
of complaints, and it doesn't necessarily equate to the number of people.
So one person can actually generate three or four complaints.
Because I think it's very easy to read this and say, okay, there's eight complaints this
quarter, and that's eight different people.
But that one person could actually have one person could be done four.
Just to clarify that's my understanding
Thank you very much, and thank you
officers for the
Really high standard of answers with so much information for all of us really very very impressive
Um so miss Chris, so thank you very much, and I think we can release you now
to go to the health
of Committee or Adult Services.
So, that, noted, that's what I meant to say.
So, this report is for information.
I ask you to note the report.
It's noted, thank you very much.
Which brings us on to item five, which is the work programme.

5 Work Programme (Paper No. 25-396)

And this is an item that I, as chair of this committee,
We have asked to be on our children's OSCs at every one until we all begin to settle
down into the new way of doing scrutiny.
And I really understand it.
We had a really good example of this new way of doing scrutiny just now in the chamber,
I think, being able to look at the issue of violence against women and girls, dive into
it bring young people through the Youth Council to speak. I just felt so moved by that to
see those young faces with their first -hand experience telling us what they needed in
that stuffy old chamber. It's really, really good to see, and that is part of this new
way of doing scrutiny.
So I can ask for questions on that paper,
but it's really, it's a process paper
and probably the most, well not important bit,
but it tells us what's coming up at the next meeting.
So this is something that we didn't have before.
If I remember the years I did in opposition,
I did not have advance knowledge of what papers
were coming down the tracks or what would be coming to a meeting in February.
So that is something that we really want to offer to everybody.
So you can see that at that meeting there will be the report on violence against women
and girls that we talked about in the Chamber with some recommendations.
There will also be a report on the education, health and care plans, task and finish group.
These may not come with the final recommendations.
This is sort of organic in a way.
And it may go on after we will have to pause for the elections and then the outcomes of
the elections.
But I was delighted that Councillor Hedges, I sat in on the last Violence Against Women
and Girls task group and Councillor Hedges agreed that on that issue at least it might
be really great if cross party we could agree that that would continue whatever the outcome
of the election.
But I know she was just speaking for herself and it's something that you on your side would
would need to speak about together on agree to. But I think because that is
not a political issue, that if there was a commitment between us to continue
with that. So this is all part of the new way of doing scrutiny. Um, and
mainstream school standards is something that Councillor Sweet asked
for, because when we met to think about, um,
what topics we might take a deeper dive on.
Obviously, the opposition was included in that,
and Councillor Sweet came to the meeting,
and this was what he requested.
So that will come to the February committee.
It will be a report, but it will have within it
suggested lines of inquiry that we might go down further
and look at and the opposition will be able to input into that.
So I thought you would be pleased to see that that was on there.
At the time, I think Councillor Sweet was thinking it might be a full task and finish group.
But we're going to take that one slowly, bring this report, put the lines of inquiry.
And just like our side as well, we're all pretty busy in these months ahead.
So that being part of a task and finish group takes up a lot of time and requires someone
to lead it as well.
So that's how we're going forward on that.
And then I think there was some, not complaints, but some questions about other papers that
were no longer coming through this committee.
So you can see there will be schools finance, there will be the general fund capital programme,
and our annual review of charges, and again, the work programme.
So, any questions on that?
Councillor Burchill.
Can I just make another comment about the meeting we had in the Chamber?
Those young people were phenomenal.
We must be very proud of our young people.
And one of the things that Kwasi said was, of course, most of the boys are not going
to be perpetrators.
And we must allow the children to understand that we're not going to be tarring them,
those boys with the brush.
And this is where Children's Committee comes into it, because I think that the schools
should have an attitude and a culture and an ethos where women are respected and girls
are respected and the boys are taught how to respect the children.
And I don't know if this is, this should not just be within the, what is it, the social
piece in that it should be the culture of the school.
And I think that some of the schools probably have a very good culture, maybe others don't,
but it doesn't necessarily have to be taught to them continuously because it should be
the way they behave.
Thank you, Councillor Batchall, for that contribution and thank you for embracing the whole idea
of a task and finish group and being able to take a deeper dive.
So that is for that task and finish group.
So you are very welcome to, through me, the chair, feed in any comments because I don't
think you're on that one.
You're on the ECP one.
But thank you for your thoughts.
But I think it's something that comes into education.
Absolutely, absolutely.
But this paper is about the process of the work programme,
which we are sharing here rather than the content
of the other task of finish group
that we have been part of earlier.
Absolutely, but thank you.
Councillor Jeffrey, I can see you had something
you wanted to add.
Just a quick comment.
Just following on from Councillor Burchill's comments.
So recently, well last week was Anti -Bullying Week.
And recently we had officers who came to my children's school and they gave a great talk.
And they actually taught how to respect children first of all.
I mean how to respect depending on gender or anything sexuality and
how to be respectful, which was really great.
And then after that, they actually followed it on
with the parents as well.
So I just want to compliment on your services,
which are actually being actively provided at the moment.
So it's actually proving to be working at the moment.
Thank you very much, Councillor.
Now, Mrs. Fennarelli would like to come back,
and then I've, Councillor Jeffrey,
and then I've got Councillor Inge.
Yeah, no, thank you.
And thank you for that.
And yes, I think for me, schools have a role,
But schools aren't responsible for educating children on everything.
And I think we've got to think about it in the wider context.
Our schools, we have rights respecting schools.
We've got schools who actually really focus on this work,
are committed to this work.
But actually, there's something around that family's first approach.
You cannot do it in isolation.
And if we are going to address this,
it's got to be collectively.
Because a school can do a piece of work,
but if that child goes home into an environment
where actually the messaging is very, very different,
we're never going to achieve anything.
So we really do have to think about this holistically.
And as much as I am absolutely an advocate for our schools
being a place to really educate and deliver in the widest
sense, it cannot be solely left to schools.
Because it has got to be a whole community approach that includes the family in that conversation.
And I agree, and that's what's great about some of our schools' work is that now they are seeing it.
Actually, this is an education piece for the family as a whole.
It cannot just be a piece that they do alongside children.
Thank you.
Councillor Nunn.
Thank you, Lisa.
Yeah, so I want to say thank you to Children's Services because of the Youth Council and the work they are doing.
I think Kecia, she's doing an amazing work with the Youth Mayor and all of them for them to be able to voice out this.
I think they are doing an amazing job. She needs some promotion.
Did you mention Carol as well?
Oh, Carol. I always mention Carol. She's amazing.
Once every month or sometimes twice, and this Thursday on the 28th, she's in our diary, she's coming just to speak to parents who have children with learning disabilities.
And then also to contribute to whatever has been said with the children.
I realise that some of the children from my charity that we speak, like 13, 14 years, the girls, they say it's the same, they are fellow girls that bullies them, that abuses them.
It's not even the boys, it's their fellow girls.
And some of them want to move from the schools they are now to another schools because of that bullying that they are going through.
So it's not just the boys.
So I think education needs to go in there for all of them.
Thank you very much, Councillor Ngan, and also for your comments about Wonderful Youth Mayor.
And I know that when you yourself were mayor, this was your idea.
you were very, very passionate that we had them.
And there they are in the chamber speaking up
just like we would have wanted.
So I think that's a really nice note to bring to an end.
Can I contribute this?
Or just one?
Okay, just one.
You know, I went to Bernice Evans, that school.
Ernest Bevan, yeah, where Quasi goes to school.
And I met him over there and he said,
oh, he would like to be a male like me.
When he was very young, he said,
I would like to be a male like him.
Two years down the line, he's a male.
So yeah.
Wonderful.
That's a lovely note to finish on.
So I'm just asking you to note that report.
We note that report.
Thank you very much, everybody.
That's closing the meeting.